Undertale human SOUL

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but in this case, all the SOULs are given to ONE person only, being Flowey. And there doesn't seems to be much differences, it looks like any monsters could take a SOUL and cross the barrier, ranging from Mad Dummy to Mettaton.

Well from what we saw, Flowey went from a unknown, but limited amount of stats to Infinity with what equals to a single Human SOUL, I don't see why the other SOULs would have a different boost (Difference in power may be possible, but unlikely, as monsters never treat a Dead SOUL as needing to be powerful to pass/break the barrier, looks like Monsters can just uses a SOUL's determination all they like, without needing it to be strong)

 

[Drac32Drac]

OK, I'll bite on the argument about passing through the barrier. With one soul, they do gain enough power to cross, it seems. That gives plausibility to the idea that one soul is 'close enough' to another for the purposes of a monster.

The main point still stands. There just isn't really enough evidence to make a good conclusion about how much power each human soul grants with respect to the previous one. If seven souls is god(infinite), that doesn't strictly mean that each soul grants an infinite power boost, but it could. Here's a simple formula that could do the same, yet have a finite power with less than seven:

a/(7-X)

'a' being some arbitrary positive scaling factor, and 'X' being the number of souls possessed. Yes, I'm invoking division by zero, but it works here.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not saying that because 7 SOUL is infinite that a single SOUL must be infinite too, but that since a power boost that made a being go infinite is equal to a single SOUL.

Also, assuming you mean that Divided by 0 gives Infinity, IIRC it doesn't, it's undefined.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Except it didn't, it only happened with seven SOULs. It took one more to reach infinity, that does not mean each soul = infinity, just that seven = infinity.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said, it's not because it only showed infinty with Asriel that only Asirel was infinitely powerful. As I said before, Flowey would NEEDS to be Infinitely more powerful than most monsters if he is 2-A.

 

[Drac32Drac]

When using the proper context(limits in calculus, for example), a positive nonzero number divided by zero is positive infinity,a negative nonzero number divided by zero is negative infinity, and zero divided by zero is undefined... but you are correct, its not a real thing, but still valid math.

The point is, each soul doesn't have to be infinite.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Eh, not going to get in the complex Math things, but still.

Sure, they don't HAVE to, but the only reasons why it would be like that is that the Seventh SOUL suddenly gave an infinity boost out of nowhere, whereas the point of this Upgrade is that it probably wouldn't be the case.

Like I said with Ever, the fact that Omega Flowey and such haven't been shown having infinite stats that they don't actually have it.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I don't think what you're say is strictly wrong, but I just don't think it's enough to justify a change in tiers by itself. With some more evidence to support it, that might change though. It could be that you are, in fact, correct about this whole thing. We just don't know.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well given the fact that a single (Living) Human SOULs has reached Infinite level of power (Frisk being able to tank Asriel's attacks), I'd say the infinite power things seems more likely (Also Chara, but they aren't exactly human anymore)

 

[Drac32Drac]

But how much of that was soul, and how much of that was this mysterious form of determination that may or may not be cooked up in a lab that got carried over from Chara?

It's just not really clear enough, in my opinion to call it based on that alone.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

In Pacifist Route, Chara doesn't have much Determination or power over Frisk on their own. They are just..there, being the narrator. Also the determination from the lab WAS extracted from actual human SOULs, so it isn't that much different from actual determination.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Ugh... that just further complicates matters.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

How does it..? I mean, could be that a living Human SOUL is much stronger than the power a Monster can get from a dead soul (It kinda seems to be the case either way, otherwise Frisk wouldn't be able to tank what equals to 7 Human SOULs attacking him)

 

[Drac32Drac]

It means we are comparing two unknowns against each other... that's why it complicates matters.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And the two unknowns are...? (Sorry, I don't follow your here >.<)

 

[Drac32Drac]

Comparing feats of determination(that may have been extracted from the six souls) to feats of the six souls themselves.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, uh, as I said, I doubt Chara had powered up Frisk during the battle, just seems like they have control over Frisk but no ability to boosts him using their own determination (that they don't have in Pacifist due to lack of SOUL).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bump

 

[Angry_Dummy]

So, to review, you're arguing that each human soul a monster nabs will give them an infinite power bump because the difference between Flowey's six and Asriel's (makeshift) seven souls is infinity?

I can dig that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty much, seems like the more straightforward and obvious way to know how strong exactly they are.

 

[Drac32Drac]

If every soul gave an infinite power boost, I wouldn't have expected Asriel to become Flowey the way he did. Yes, I know he didn't fight back, but still.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What do you mean?

 

[LordXcano]

I don't think Asriel was ever infinitely powerful? Even when he damages you it's still a finite amount, even when going all out. And plus if a human soul is infinite, and all of the monster souls equal one human soul, then ever monster soul would also have to be infinite. Unless you're going to say that every Undertale human is a 200+ dimensional being, which is kinda silly.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's the same argument as saying that eveyr Human is Universal, they are not, but they all have the potential to be.

Well Monster SOULs could be a lower infinity than Human SOULs, like the difference between 3D infinity to 2D and 4D infinity to 3D.

Frisk just had the determination to survives his things, and that the stats still shows Infinity because it was only his dura, not his attack or HP that were boosted to his level (Frisk wouldn't want to hurt Asriel in pacifist anyway)

 

[Drac32Drac]

I still stand by what I originally said. I just don't think there is enough information to adequately scale based on souls. There are some conclusions that can be made, but not enough for tiering, IMO.

edit... It's like, what does one Dragonball grant you? If seven grants me a wish, then do I get a small wish with just one?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

It's like, what does one Dragonball grant you? If seven grants me a wish, then do I get a small wish with just one?

Seven Dragon Balls do not grant you a wish. They summon a being who then grants you a wish. Just one would contain a fraction of the power required to summon the scaly fairy godmother.

The souls do not summon a magic pixie who makes someone infinitely powerful. They are the direct source of this power.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well in my opinion, the conclusions that the SOULs are somehow not scalable to the boost of all Monster SOULs seems pretty far-fetched.

 

[Drac32Drac]

It's like, what does one Dragonball grant you? If seven grants me a wish, then do I get a small wish with just one?

Seven Dragon Balls do not grant you a wish. They summon a being who then grants you a wish. Just one would contain a fraction of the power required to summon the scaly fairy godmother.
The souls do not summon a magic pixie who makes someone infinitely powerful. They are the direct source of this power.

That was kind of the very point I was trying to make, though... that just because 7 does one thing, it doesn't necessarily follow that one soul = 1/7 of that. In fact, it's already been proven that that isn't the case, hasn't it?

Each soul gathered doesn't make the individual infinitely more powerful than the last either. Otherwise Asriel logically shouldn't have died from his encounter with the humans of the surface, thus becoming Flowey in the first place. The fact that he did should illustrate that one soul does not equal an infinite power boost. Therefore, the argument that each soul is infinitely more powerful than the last doesn't hold under scrutiny.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense... I'm notorious for thinking that I explained something well, when in reality, I didn't actually explain anything. This is my reasoning for why I don't think this type of scaling works as expected.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That was already explained tho. Asriel wasn't willing to fight, the humans were enraged and very willing to put him down, and by Undertale rules, this means Asriel got down fairly quickly. Or you know, PIS, but the former is more likely.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Drac, your comparison to the Dragon Balls was flawed. You were comparing cell batteries to keys, a power source to a glorified phone number, apples to oranges.

That was bad.

Your new argument of "Asriel was mortally wounded by humans, therefore his stats were not yet infinite with just one soul," however, is wonderful.

To support this argument, Frisk was able to injure Photoshop Flowey with all six souls. Not well though, especially at the start, and it took forever to knock him down even after the six souls weakened him as you called for help. Flowey's defense was incredibly high, as was his health-pool, and he could reset the entire fight, but even with six souls he was still finite.

It took a seventh soul to make the jump to infinity, as per the legend.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because he was hit by Humans doesn't means that he was finite. Even with Infinite Power, Asriel couldn't put down Frisk, as Frisk was really REALLY determined. Same goes with Flowey or Kid Asriel. A bunch of angry, grown up and determined humans >>>> a Single human child SOUL unwilling to fight.

Thus, with Flowey, Frisk was simply determined enough to match 6 dead SOULs (Further proof that a very determined human can be much more powerful than SOULs used by Monsters.)

Same with Frisk against Adult Asriel. Despite Asriel having infinite power, Frisk's determination was much higher than his dead Human SOULs.

 

[LordXcano]

If Asriel had truly infinite attack power and Frisk surivived that via higher dimensional shenanigans than it would've done an infinitesimal amount of damage. Asriel also wouldn't have been capable of increasing his damage a linear amount, that isn't how dimensional infinites work.

It's either 0.000...1 damage or they're on equal terms, which they obviously aren't.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I am honestly confused by your comment, so I'm just going to say this.

Frisk didn't have to do "higher dimensional shenanigans" to survive Asriel, they both runs on determination, no reasons that Frisk wouldn't be able to get on his level.

 

[Drac32Drac]

And if determination is a key factor, then scaling based upon souls alone makes little sense in the first place. If one human can survive a literal godlike state of being's attack that is powered by many souls, then scaling based upon souls alone makes even less sense because it has two different competing abstract concepts at play in the feats at the same time. I'm not saying that what Ariel and Frisk did aren't impressive, just that it can't really be quantified in a meaningful way.

 

[LordXcano]

I am honestly confused by your comment, so I'm just going to say this.
Frisk didn't have to do "higher dimensional shenanigans" to survive Asriel, they both runs on determination, no reasons that Frisk wouldn't be able to get on his level.

I'm saying that if Asriel has infinite attack power then the entire feat doesn't make sense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We are not scaling using Determination tho, it just explains why a single SOUL is able to match others.

Well Monsters' defenses lowers when they don't want to fight, and Humans' attack power goes up when they want to attack, so as I said, A Monster who do not want to fight, against a bunch of humans who do wants to fight means a bunch of humans killing the monster. Yes, Asrial had infinite power, but each of these humans had Human SOULs too, with each their own potential for infinite power.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

It is stated somewhere that Asriel had infinite power, apart from his check? his stats shouldn't be a reliavable source to be honest.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sats in Undertale has been shown to be somewhat canon, as CHECK Stats are much different from actual in-game stats (They are mostly for showing a character's power to another, otherwise we wouldn't have impressives things like 99 Attack, 255 Defense or Infinite Attack)

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

They are still only repressentative, or even methaporical. The fact that ATK, DEF, ect has probably some other meaning (like EXP and LOVE) just add more to the argument that they are not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

They still gives the same effect that their game counterparts do tho. Thus, Infinite ATK would most likely be infinite damage. And considering Asriel wasn't really showing off his real power, seems unlikely he would lie and such (Frisk being unable to hurt him is another proof of that)