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Undertale: Frisk and Chara revisions

Effeciente are you done debating or are you just taking time?

Also wanna note that, if Asriel even was destroying the timeline after Hyper Goner and by the second phase, that still means he'd be destroying it literally by existing once beginning to use his true power, which is debatably even more impressive than him doing such with Hyper Goner, even if he was doing it slowly. Meanwhile Frisk was still tanking actual attacks from him, and at the end of the fight their Determination was so high that they survived what was very likely a genuinely full power attack from Asriel, and it'd be ridiculous to assume that his actual attacks, even the normal ones he uses in phase 2, aren't stronger than the passive effects of his strength. And of course you have the literal infinite difference between Low 2-C and any lower tiers on top of that. Frisk's AP wouldn't be Low 2-C at that Determination because they can't even harm Asriel, so it'd just be listed as something like "At least Wall level, likely massively higher (Was unable to harm Asriel, but should be much more powerful than normal)", however their durability would be Low 2-C.
 
really tho, in asriel's final attack he gives up on the bullet patterns and does just a straight up concentrated laser beam thing filling the whole dodging box, he's not ******* around anymore, the attack isn't even white or only faded rainbow colors like the rest of his attacks it's bright rainbowy and shit and it's causing the whole UI to shake, he fills half the damn screen with the attack, he's screaming the whole time and everything in his very desperate final attempt to get rid of frisk, if that's not a full power attack then idk what the **** is, and frisk tanks the absolute shit out of it
 
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so nobody's objected to the chara intelligence change or moving genocide frisk to frisk's profile and rinneltachi's voiced their approval for both in the week or so this thread's been around, I think that should mean we're good but I'm kinda new here
 
RinneItachi said:
Frisk's AP wouldn't be Low 2-C at that Determination because they can't even harm Asriel, so it'd just be listed as something like "At least Wall level, likely massively higher (Was unable to harm Asriel, but should be much more powerful than normal)", however their durability would be Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
maybe even a "possibly low 2-C with immense determination", since from what I've seen/heard just being immensely stronger than a low 2-C doesn't qualify for a higher tier, same for every tier that's 2 and up
 
We prob need to get more people into the thread (like staff and such) before making any changes, but yes those two things don't seem to be argued against.

Someone could make a new thread for the Low 2-C debate.

Actually, I think Frisk's AP in that key would be more fitting with something like "Unknown, possibly Low 2-C (Should be massively stronger than in base and can take attacks from Asriel, but is unable to harm Asriel at any point in the fight)". That seems best, although I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there. Are you saying Frisk's durability should only be possibly Low 2-C?
 
Actually, Effeciente, if we could just agree on what me and OP are thinking, I would honestly be fine with that. At the very least Frisk definitely still deserves a Low 2-C key for being able to take hits from Asriel who can, even without the Hyper Goner feat, still destroy the timeline passively. More concerned about this topic than the previous honestly.
 
yeah, I think I'm a decently open-minded guy and I can't think of any actual argument against asriel's final attack being at full power aside from it being like 30 seconds before his redemption, but I still think all the other stuff showing it was an attack that at the very least took serious effort from asriel to put out overrules that, asriel was even able to use the hyper goner far more casually than the final attack, both of which frisk took like an absolute champ, especially the final attack
 
I mean, the biggest thing to me is that, if Hyper Goner didn't destroy the timeline, Asriel is literally destroying it passively at his true power. No effort or direct attacks, he's just destroying it by existing. Even his normal attacks in that state should logically be significantly stronger than the power his mere existence is outputting. And then you obviously have the final attack he uses.
 
more stuff about chara's profile
"Acausality (Type 1, unaffected by time being rewinded by Frisk)" chara keeps their memories from before frisk rewinds time at best
"Resurrection (Should be able to rewind time upon death like Frisk)" why should they though
speed while "possessing frisk"/just genocide frisk's speed: "Supersonic (Capable of aim dodging lasers fired from Sans' Gaster Blasters. Far superior to a high determination Frisk in the neutral and pacifist routes)" there's really nothing to indicate superiority in speed though
the sheer amount of classifications again lol

also just asking, what's the solid evidence that frisk is ever actually possessed by chara if there is any?
 
No. Even after a True Reset is performed Post-Genocide, Chara will show up at the end of a True Pacifist Route, and kill everyone. There is a special ending for Pacifist if you do it after Genocide, I'll leave a link to it at the end of the post. Chara is completely unaffected by the player's time manipulation after reaching their absolute. Which could also be related to the fact that the Player gives their soul to Chara in order to restore the world.

They have the Player's (or "Frisk's") soul Post-Genocide, which also allowed them to recreate the world after destroying it. Thus, they should have time manipulation as well.

Agreed, but Frisk by that point does still scale far above a version that can dodge soundwaves at speeds which make them Subsonic+ based on calcs.

I don't personally have a problem with the classifications but if others do as well, something could be done about it.

Yes, plenty. Let me just go over this whole thing real quick.

To begin with, at the end of Genocide, Frisk is no longer in view. This isn't because Chara got rid of them or because it suddenly switched to a first person view. It's because Chara literally took control of Frisk completely. We see this in the Post-Genocide Pacifist ending, where they take on their own appearance after possessing Frisk there. And back to my earlier point in the thread, Frisk doesn't do much (aside from some things you mentioned iirc), it's just that they're a vessel you're controlling. But Chara can take control when they wish, at least in Genocide, where they do so multiple times. When they move without you making them, when they attack without you attacking, etc., that's implied to be Chara. And it's especially apparent when Flowey gets killed on Genocide. If it was Frisk, they likely would've just hit him once and been done with it. Chara attacking him over and over again makes a lot more sense in the context of it being Chara.

() The Post-Genocide Pacifist Ending
 
Also not too related, but I've always felt that Chara's true theme is In My Way. Obviously the whole Megalo Strikes Back is just a fan thing, but still wanted to point that out.
 
Thread doesn't require a bump yet, but does anyone have anything to say about the changes in question? I specifically want a response from Effeciente over all of the Low 2-C stuff, primarily whether or not you agree with Frisk's dura and somewhat AP still scaling to Phase 2 Asriel who was passively destroying the timeline, even if we say that Hyper Goner didn't. To clarify, my proposition in that regard is that their AP would be:

"Unknown, possibly Low 2-C (Is far stronger than normal, and their durability is within this tier, however they were unable to harm Asriel at any point in the fight):

And their defense would be:

"Low 2-C (Was able to consistently take attacks from Asriel, who was passively destroying the timeline)"
 
Alright, I posted my new Undertale CRT, now I'll get back to this, and also go over a few things I just realized.

So, about the things mentioned in this CRT. There seems to be no disagreement on changing Chara's intelligence. But can we reach a consensus on what it should be changed to? I'd go for "Unknown, possibly Below Average, Likely Average".

As for other things, I already handled the whole "Monster's attacks=spiritual only" thing, and the topic about Low 2-C is still up for discussion. Apart from those things, everything else mentioned in the OP seems to be agreed upon.

I also wanted to mention a few things since this is a CRT that goes over a lot of different things. First...why is Frisk's regeneration reduced to High-Mid, and why did they lose existence erasure resistance?

"Although with their "control over the timeline"/Time Manipulation matched, repeated deaths make their grip in the timeline slip away, which can eventually result in them forgetting everything experienced little by little" Based on what we actually know, Asriel was killing them and trying to erase them from existence. He was even going to make everyone else forget they existed overtime. Frisk keeps resisting it, but they're slowly being overtaken. Is this more of Effeciente's changes? And speaking of, can you (Effeciente) give me a link to the CRT where this was all discussed? And I mean all of these big downgrades.
 
Other than that, is there anything else in this thread I'm forgetting? We should try to get more people in here btw. Barely anyone has come into this, Effeciente has gone quiet, and it's all making the discussion slow.
 
Forgot to mention it, but any character that uses Determination should have Supernatural Willpower added, for obvious reasons. Edit: Frisk not only doesn't have that on their page, but they're literally even listed on the page for supernatural willpower.
 
RinneItachi said:
There seems to be no disagreement on changing Chara's intelligence. But can we reach a consensus on what it should be changed to? I'd go for "Unknown, possibly Below Average, Likely Average".
Click to expand...
i think something like "Unknown. Seems to be knowledgeable about monsters and the underground and was able to come up with a basic plan, but also seems to lack common sense, such as when they thought putting flowers in a pie wouldn't have any negative consequences. Is a child."
 
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