Undertale downgrade

[Little_Jackie_Papercut]

Okay. I'm putting this on the table now because it's been bugging me. Most or all Undertale characters are listed as Relativistic+ because of scaling to either Frisk/Chara or Napstablook. This is complete and utter nonsense.

First off, nobody scales to Napstablook. Only Frisk/Chara has anything resembling a feat of keeping up with him, and Blooky wasn't even trying in that match. All he did was cry. He didn't try to dodge; as he said himself, you can't kill a ghost. His attacks did home in on Frisk, but in a way that suggests that it's a property of the bullets rather than Blooky's guidance, i.e. his known Relativistic+ reactions are irrelevant to that fight. So basically, nobody scales to Napstablook because nobody has ever had to keep up with even a tiny fraction of his speed.

As for Frisk and Chara, people assign them Rel+ because of dodging sunlight against Knight Knight. Not only was it not actual sunlight, but the lesser Hypersonic+ feat of dodging Vulkin's lightning is also not real lightning. These two attacks do not look or behave like actual sunlight or lightning respectively. Further, there's something that clearly shows Frisk is slower than lightning; Asriel calls down bolts that look and behave more like actual lightning. Dodging this is not a legit lightning dodge feat—you get a big flashing indicator, so it's aimdodging. If Frisk's reactions were faster than lightning, you could wait for the lightning itself to actually appear on the screen before dodging.

I would like to reference another current thread here.

Avatar and Lightning Redirectio

Specifically, Faisal Shourov's post:

Enel and Nami are from One Piece. Enel is a logia devil fruit user who can turn his entire body into lightning. However we don't use Enel's lightning as real lightning for combat, nor we use Kizaru's (a light devil fruit user) laser beam as real light. Otherwise Zoro would be FTL Pre Timeskip if we take Oda's words for granted. We use the same standard for every verse, I'm failry certain Lightning bending in Avatar is the same as Enel's lightning bolts

And Alakabamm's :

2) The burden of proof is not on the wiki to prove that the lightning is not actual lightning, it is on the people who wish to edit this wiki to prove that the lightning is real.

See, though... you can't prove that Vulkin's lightning bolts are real, or that Knight Knight's bullets have the properties of light (they don't). And because of that, those feats go out the window.

Look... I like Undertale. I like wanking. But I really think it would be healthier to stop wanking Undertale.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Napstablook is literal fodder, everything scales to him from that.

Also the lighting from Vulkin is lighting created by a cloud created by Vulkin, so it's more likely to be real lighting. Also Frisk dodged lighting from mechanical sources too, when fighting EX.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

First off, nobody scales to Napstablook.

Everybody stronger than Napstablook should scale to Napstablook. Everyone stronger than Napstablook is literally everybody after the ruins.

Further, there's something that clearly shows Frisk is slower than lightning; Asriel calls down bolts that look and behave more like actual lightning.

Asriel is an immeasurable speed being who transcends time and space. I'm pretty sure dodging Asriel's lightning would be more than Massively Hypersonic, not to mention the fact that the only reason things in the final fight look more realistic is due to the style of the fight. Look at the God Flowey fight for this, as well. Sans' fight is also a final boss battle, but functions and looks similar to the rest of the fights in the game. It's simply a stylistic choice.

See, though... you can't prove that Vulkin's lightning bolts are real, or that Knight Knight's bullets have the properties of light (they don't). And because of that, those feats go out the window.

All of this has been addressed multiple times, and every time, it's for the same reasons. I'm genuinely getting tired of this. I wouldn't mind if each time, there was like...new or different evidence for the downgrade, but there never is. There are several threads going over almost the exact same points.

 

[Little_Jackie_Papercut]

Napstablook is literal fodder, everything scales to him from that.
Also the lighting from Vulkin is lighting created by a cloud created by Vulkin, so it's more likely to be real lighting. Also Frisk dodged lighting from mechanical sources too, when fighting EX.

No, it's a bullet that resembles lightning, created by a bullet that resembles a cloud, created by Vulkin. And it still doesn't act like lightning. The bolts from Mettaton are even more suspect.

What do you mean fodder? How does anything possibly scale to a character with unique powers without anything having ever had to keep up with it? That's like saying Batman scales to the Flash in speed because they occupy the same universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Azathoth, maybe make a thread addressing and deproving all of them, it'll likely stop it

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

it'll likely stop it

I sincerely doubt that, but I could probably do so, anyway.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Napstablook is just weaker than everyone else in the verse. That's how it works.

So you're gonna put everything in "Looks like X but isn't X because it's a bullet"? We had proof of "Bullets" being the real things such as with Papyrus' bones. And now we have 2 lighting being created from realistic source where it could be created.

 

[Little_Jackie_Papercut]

Everyone stronger than Napstablook is literally everybody after the ruins.

Based on...?

Maybe people wouldn't keep bringing it up if your arguments weren't "because I said so".

 

[Promestein]

This is not something that Azathoth is just "saying".

This has been extensively discussed and agreed on many, many times in the past.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Stats given by the CHECK option. These stats are completely different from the actual Game Mechanics stats, thus actually representative of a character's strength. Napstablook has an attack stat of 10 (IIRC), while the weakest fighting enemy outside the ruins has an attack stat of 11.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Based on...?

Maybe people wouldn't keep bringing it up if your arguments weren't "because I said so".

Based on having higher stats and being portrayed as stronger than him? It's like asking what makes Bowser stronger han a Goomba.

The arguments have never been "because I said so". In fact, you saying that just proves you didn't bother to look at ANY of the previous threads talking about this. Hell, isn't there a thread in which you tried to argue that bullets weren't real because they were "just bullets", which I also addressed? I seem to recall many of your arguments were "because I said so" or "there's no evidence" while ignoring things that had already been presented numerous times.

 

[Little_Jackie_Papercut]

Napstablook is just weaker than everyone else in the verse. That's how it works.
So you're gonna put everything in "Looks like X but isn't X because it's a bullet"? We had proof of "Bullets" being the real things such as with Papyrus' bones. And now we have 2 lighting being created from realistic source where it could be created.

No, we have proof that bullets ca be stored as physical entities. We never actually see how Papyrus uses those physical entities, whether they exist beforehand, or are created as byproducts, or what—he's certainly not dragging a big box full of bones with him before or after the fight, though. In a practical sense, I'd lump them into the same category as "comedy feats". The bones exist because it's humorous, with no real explanatio for their existence, and seem to be exclusive to Papyrus.