Undertale (& Deltarune): Stuff

[Eficiente]

Deltarune should be allowed to have a verse page and profiles: The reason used for this to not be the case is that the story is incomplete, just that. This is a pretty bad thing to say and for many reasons, if a new, idk, Star Wars trilogy comes up we don't wait for anything past the first film to make profiles, regardless of the characters' story and the story itself being fully done. 1 game serves well as its own story, it's not like it stops working while playing and you have to wait for the next game to come up. It would be disaster to not have things organized on how they are in the forms profiles by the time all the story is done, we would need to analyze all games at once when we could have more competently take the games 1 by 1 and each time updade our beliefs and claims about them in profiles that anyone can look and say "Hey I think this bit is wrong and should be fixed". Occultism via having one's own private sandbox isn't the way.

That said, it should be our most trustworthy users who had this sandboxs already made who should create and deal with this profiles.

Undertale; abilities revision: For Frisk

• The Low-Godly regen is wrong, only their soul gets shattered, not their body. For it to be Low-Godly their body would need to be gone while it's not even being attacked.
• The "Unknown normally" regen should be none.
• The type 7 Immortality normally is wrong, it's when they die.
• They should have "Extrasensory Perception with high enough Determination (Felt something faintly/weakly resonating within Asriel, later feeling it as their SOULs. From somewhere they felt their friend's support, felt that something else began resonating within Asriel's SOUL, stronger and stronger)"

For Flowey

• Body Control: Should go with his Plant Manip, both should go early in the profile.
• Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: Lacks the power to love other people and thus compassion, although his fear of being killed by Chara overpowered this, much to his surprise
• As P. Flowey; Extrasensory Perception: Could feel his 6 SOULs wriggling
• As Asriel: More Extrasensory Perception: Can feel the compassion of other monsters whose SOULs he absorved. Could feel all of their hearts beating as one with the same desire

For Chara

• Extrasensory Perception: Knew that the SOUL the player gave them resonates with a strange feeling
• Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: Cannot understand the sentimentality of the player and those feelings any more

In general

• To all monsters' Soul Manip: When absorbing 1 human soul their souls combine and the control of their body splits between them, absorving more souls can let a monster make the souls obey it, which is implied to work perfectly with 7 SOULs.
• DT users should have some limited type 2 Immor. via being able to use their powers after dying.
• For the Notable Attacks/Techniques of DT users:

• DETERMINATION: The source of their power and abilities. The user is empowered by the feeling of determination, allowing it to strengthen their capabilities and use certain new powers.
• SAVE: When particularly determined the user can SAVE the current moment in time, filling a file inside the game with information about their current process, LV, etc. This file may or may not a physical object that exists somewhere, as Photoshop Flowey was able to destroy Frisk's while potentially outside any physical land in the Underground, breaking the 4° wall and being outside the places one should "normally" visit in the game. A user may create a SAVE when really wanting to anywhere, finding the yellow flash shown in-game isn't necessary. Someone with the same use of DETERMINATION and higher determination will result in his ability to SAVE being disabled.
• LOAD: Turns back time to the last SAVE made. This can even be used after dying, which usually results in having one's SOUL shattering into pieces. Someone with the same use of DETERMINATION and higher determination will result in his ability to LOAD being disabled.
• Reset: Turns back time to the beginning of the game.
• True Reset: As before, but overpowering certain characters' ability to remember events after being reset.

@Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa @Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality

 

[Thelastmlg]

Type 2 is to avoid dying, it sounds like limites type 7.

Agree with the rest but i'm iffy on empathic resist, it tends to induce and force emotions rather than just making you feel stuff, idk, if it is legit than is fine, if not, minor or limited works.

 

[Moritzva]

I mainly don’t feel comfortable with Deltarune since we have not a clue how long it’ll take until it is finished, with Toby saying it’ll be an exceptionally long time. Especially given how poorly it’s true connections to Undertale proper are defined, I really don’t feel like we know enough to give remotely accurate pages for it.

 

[Eficiente]

It doesn't need to be finished, this is the only verse where this thing of having the story 100% done needs to be a thing first. It doesn't need to have any connection to Undertale aside from "You saw this before in Undertale", if it ever has a connection beyond it, then cool, since it doesn't then we don't say it does, it can't be more simple than that. We can make accurate pages based on the info we have so far in the same sense that anyone can talk about the characters based on what we know of them from the game, what's the difference from any wiki talking about this characters and we having profiles from them? We have no reason to want to know everything from them first, that's made up.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Pretty sure most known verses here are incomplete and will take time, like dbs, boruto, jojo.

And yet we pages because have enough info for them, if they have retcons or something, we change them

 

[Metalballrun]

Deltarune seems to have enough feats even for Chapter 1. Another huge CRT can be made when the full game is released.
Wonder what their tiers would be, though.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Despite the tag, I don't think I got a notification.

A note for Deltarune, the fact that the player is canonically possessing Kris and can reference Undertale should mean that Undertale is canon to Deltarune (but not the other way around, for now).

And agreed with what is brought up here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this.

If we had Bendy pages despite the game being incomplete at the time, I see no reason Deltarune shouldn’t have profiles here. Also, Deltarune would be Wall level iirc scaling from Jevil’s explosions.

However, wasnt most of Deltarune at this point in a dream? They literally wake up at the end of the game with items that have reverted to regular objects.

 

[Shmooply]

Huh, I thought we didn't allow Deltarune profiles because the characters don't really show any impressive physical feats unless im misremembering things.

 

[Eficiente]

However, wasnt most of Deltarune at this point in a dream? They literally wake up at the end of the game with items that have reverted to regular objects.

It's unclear (you can keep some odd egg with powers in the "real world", which should not happen should everything was a dream or kids just playing) and it doesn't matter anyway due to Reality Equalization.

Huh, I thought we didn't allow Deltarune profiles because the characters don't really show any impressive physical feats unless im misremembering things.

Well, it may have been/is a part for the reasons nobody talks about out loud due to anyone knowing just how petty that is.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

There were 9-B feats still (which the downgrade seems to be putting UT to anyways). The giant swords and axes being tanked, the whole slamming into Ralsei with a bike so hard that there's an explosion, that giant dog-faced crown wearing dude just jumping on you despite its large size.

Plus, Kris can Save and Load, could even before becoming a vessel (though he lost that power, supposedly).

I don't think there's any speed feats of note though.

 

[Eficiente]

Kris can't Save and Load.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't think there's any speed feats of note though.

There's Susie blocking soundwaves before they reach Lancer

 

[Metalballrun]

Calculations might be necessary for speed. No idea how you can pixel calc those things though, but Lancer's bike and projectiles come to mind and most characters can dodge them.

We see Kris supposedly already having a SAVE file in the Dark World but we don't really know for sure whether that legit means they can SAVE and LOAD.

 

[Metalballrun]

There's Susie blocking soundwaves before they reach Lancer

I don't think that was meant to be literal.

Somebody made a debunk on the same thread and put Susie's speed at Subsonic.

 

[Eficiente]

Kris and Raisel can optionally and canonically lose to Susie and Lancer, but they don't die, they just get defeated, this despite Raisel falling apart when defeated, and likewise he can fall apart mid-battle and you can heal him. On its own, the game has no reason for Saves and Loads to be canon, and with the physiology of monsters being so different and no one acknowledging those time powers when given a very good chance for it, it's very clear that the standard and most reasonable take is that Kris can't do that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Kris can't Save and Load.

The very first Save point you get to lists the last save in name of Kris, and describes how it has been a long time since he had seen that. Then, you overwrite the save, and the name gets changed to the one you yourself chose.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

*At times, you see a flickering.
*The light only you can see.
*By second nature, you reach out, and...

And then it shows Kris' save file (Kris LV1 0:00 ---) and then once you save it becomes your save file ([Player Name] LV1 [Minutes played] ?????)

There is also how the save files' description acts way different.

And, of course, the game acknowledging Kris is possessed, and letting you reference Undertale.

 

[Eficiente]

I see, but Undertale has those game mechanics as canon things characters like Flowey, Frisk and other fallen childs could use and that it turns out some outside influence was messing Frisk in some unknown ways over maybe that or not, in Deltarune the same mechanics exist and that same outside influence seems to be directly controlling Kris, at least sometimes, but there is no proof anyone in this new universe can do that, so how do we don't know that, say, Gaster/that voice talking isn't the one messing up the timeline for you, the outside influence?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I see, but Undertale has those game mechanics as canon things the characters Flowey, Frisk, other fallen childs could use and that it turns out some outside influence was messing Frisk in some unknown ways over maybe that or not, in Deltarune the same mechanics exist and that same outside influence seems to be directly controlling Kris, at least sometimes, but there is no proof anyone in this new universe can do that, so how do we don't know that say, Gaster/that voice talking isn't the one messing up the timeline for you, the outside influence?

Well, for one the outside influence is allowed to reference Undertale outright on multiple occasions, so it certainly would seem like the player is allowed to be the same one as the one that ***** around in UT. But even ignoring UT completely...

We know Kris, without "assistance" from the player, had a save file of his own. We know the SOUL in Kris is controlled by the player, since even once it's removed from Kris it can still move around per our instructions (and... it's stuck in a normal birdcage. Rip intangible souls I guess). If Kris could, and the save is made in the name of the Player, then it would be the most obvious assumption that the SOUL the player controls did it.

Even if it is some third party, the ability is still there and can be used at will, and it would at most count as Empowerment or a Blessing, but still be listed as a power.

 

[Eficiente]

Ok then.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Sorry, that would probably need a crt of its own anyways.

For the rest of this, all active members seem to agree, and it's far less... controversial, I guess, than the downgrade was for tier 2. I think it should be fine to apply?

 

[Eficiente]

It's ok.

I think so. Mostly none of the big names have or will come here to say anything, and I believe it would be innocent at this point to think it's just a lack of time.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't really care for undertale revisions of this sort, but if calculations are needed for deltarune I'm up to help

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that we know far too little about Deltarune as of yet to create any official profile pages for it. All that we have available is essentially a brief unfinished draft. The finished product will likely be very different from its current format.

Anyway:

@Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa @Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality

As Eficiente said, would you be willing to offer input here about the Undertale revisions please?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure, actually, I believe the idea is for Chapter 1 is to be kept mostly as is, and the rest to be released all together. Still, Deltarune is as close to being a trailer as it is to being a game.

 

[Eficiente]

I still think that we know far too little about Deltarune as of yet to create any official profile pages for it.

What is a profile? What we know of a character so far based on finished products, not stories. Episodes or chapters are a finished products, and so we can talk about its characters like any wiki and any content creator could. If later chapters recontextualize or reveal things then it doesn't mean they were always the case, but that they were recontextualized or revealed as the story went.

If we were to apply this inability to create profiles in the wiki based on the reasons we do here then we would having a rule stating something we don't do, and hence nobody has ever had any issue having a verse that will be unable to be added to the wiki due to having the same context as Deltarune.

All that we have available is essentially a brief unfinished draft.

Chapter 1 is finished tho. What comes next is chapter 2, and Toby claimed the whole thing to be finished in 20 years.

Will chapter 1 be changed later, we will need to replay it and I'm not aware of it?

The finished product will likely be very different from its current format.

I don't see why that's a point.

 

[Antvasima]

My point is that, as Armorchompy said, we essentially only have an unfinished trailer for a game that may or may not ever get made. That seems very unreliable to me.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The trailer also happens to have a finished, closed story and indexable feats or statements.

There are many, many novels, stories, and such that have the very real chance of never being finished that are still allowed.

 

[Armorchompy]

I would agree with that, after all I believe we had Hazbin Hotel profiles right after the pilot, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. And I'm pretty sure we have a verse or two that are definitely forever gonna be unfinished due to the author's death

 

[Metalballrun]

Toby's last Deltarune update over a month ago was about Chapter 2's development going well, it won't be surprising that they've moved on to Chapter 3 by now. It will take years but he's highly likely to finish it even with his disabilities that might plague him (though this was 5 months ago).

Like Ricsi said, the game has a full, enclosed story, a full gameplay with lore and feats. This isn't like a manga that suddenly went in hiatus (even then manga like that can still have profiles). I also doubt they would change much about Chapter 1, but even so, I think whatever changes the full game would give years from now can just be dealt with in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that Deltarune can be added then.

What disabilities does Toby have?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Chronic wrist and hand pain.

 

[RethPo]

Idc whether deltarune gets added or not, but i will mention the powers or abilities
Frisk:

• I think mob has a similar thing where he can regenerate his soul and its listed as a resistence. Unless you argue that asriel would have likely destroyed frisks body as well as his soul, im fine with removing it
• Frisk definitely has regen with determination shown from save points and being able to replenish his health before the asriel fight. Just the amount isnt really known.
• Makes sense
• Should be okay i think

For Flowey:

All this should be okay

For chara:

If simply not understanding a certain emotion gives resistence to empathic manip then sure

 

[Eficiente]

Chara should be unable to understanding that like Flowey due to their lack of a Soul, and what they said I take as a literal mechanic the demon has going for, but I'll add how it may be that that's not the case.

 

[Arceus0x]

guys we've profiles for characters with barely any feats and we had profiles for hazbin hotel pilot ep. deltarune chapter 1 has 4 hours of gameplay and quite a few feats worth noting.

 

[Antvasima]

I already accepted Deltarune to be added.

 

[Eficiente]

I need this profiles unlocked:

• Frisk
• Flowey
• Chara

 

[Antvasima]

I will do so. Tell me here when you are done.