Undertale 9-A calc doesn't work.

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, not doing it to beat Undertale while it's down, but that calc is just not functional. I'll cut this short.

This is the calc.

The calc assumes that at some point, there was a flame that covered every centimeter of the room... nothing implies this. The fact that only Undyne's front is burned while her back, the random assortment of flammable objects, and Frisk not affected in this way makes the assumption a weird one. The flame did spread, yeah, but it wasn't something that filled every inch.

Oh, talking about those, are you telling me that the wooden table, the carpet, the piano were unharmed and the bottles were left unaffected by a 9-A blast?

Most importantly, Undyne nor Frisk scale to this, because even if that flame had existed... they didn't tank it. They didn't take the combined heat of a whole room's worth of fire, they survived what is at best a five-second skin contact with orange flame, which is not 9-A at all.

I don't know if this can be calced properly, but what is currently used is not functional.

Because of this, Undyne and the strongest peeps would go to 9-C, maybe 9-B because of Undyne breaking the bridge and her table with her spears, and the Ice Cube lifting dog. The ice thrown (or the lifting process, because that's sure as hell a sudden jerk if I ever saw one) would probably fetch low-end 9-B if calced. There is also Muffet's pet, which seems pretty big and should probably be around 9-B as well.

Undyne, Tori and Asgore, probably the Royal Guard members, and maybe the mercenaries would scale to 9-C/9-B with that.

Others would probably be 10-C to 10-A unless I'm missing some feats.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Low Tier Monsters can probably be scaled to Chara's Fall, which is probably 9-B

Undyne also has this 9-B feat

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Eh, Chara hurt themselves, though I don't think its clear how badly - and we don't generally give tiers for anything that breaks your bones or such, and I'd say the weakest characters have enough low-end showings with stuff like the infamous Tomato punch to not really scale them.

 

[Abstractions]

I'm sure the transition effect and the way the room looks after was to imply the room was engulfed, just not that everything caught fire from the blast, asking for Frisk to be covered in ash as well feels rather nitpicky but I agree the calculation isn't as usable as we'd like, given our potential overhaul of heat feats.

The Ice Wolf calculation has been done two times and the potential energy of the lift would be low-end 9-B.

Undyne also has this fall calculation here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There's also Pyrope's and Tsunderplane's explosions (Butters calced Pyrope's explosions at 6-8 megajoules)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm sure the transition effect and the way the room looks after was to imply the room was engulfed, just not that everything caught fire from the blast, asking for Frisk to be covered in ash as well feels rather nitpicky but I agree the calculation isn't as usable as we'd like, given our potential overhaul of heat feats.

The Ice Wolf calculation has been done two times and the potential energy of the lift would be low-end 9-B.

Undyne also has this fall calculation here.

I disagree. As I pointed out, only Undyne's front was charred, while Frisk and here back were unaffected.

Regardless, they would not tank the full energy of the heat, only the one that went against their skin.


The rest I'm fine with though, look good.

 

[Abstractions]

There's also Pyrope's and Tsunderplane's explosions (Butters calced Pyrope's explosions at 6-8 megajoules)

That can be evaluated if you want, but the calculations Butters makes have been deemed unreliable and they aren't allowed to make more.

I disagree. As I pointed out, only Undyne's front was charred, while Frisk and here back were unaffected.

One could argue the transition effect was to imply the scope of the blast was large, had it been smaller it could have simply occupied a portion of the screen but Toby decided to make a whole transition flash for it.

If you want to argue Frisk was unaffected that's fine, but you are phrasing it in a way that would require them to have danced around the heat entirely as it passed to the portions of the room where flame was present, which wouldn't make much sense.

Regardless, they would not tank the full energy of the heat, only the one that went against their skin.

And that would be entirely fair and I would agree with you there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Abstractions makes sense to me as usual.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright. 9-B seems consistent for the high tiers among monsters, so those in the ballpark of Undyne and above.

I'm pretty sure most monsters would get 10-A or 9-C if they have stats above the dogs due to them being big, armored dudes who use meaty weapons and all.

What about the low tiers, like Froggit, Monster Kid and Sans?

 

[Bruhtelho]

What about the low tiers, like Froggit, Monster Kid and Sans?

Sans Physically should scale far below the 10-A/9-C feat given he is considered the weakest monster, i'd say 10-B or baseline 10-A at best and with magic should scale to the 9-B feat
and same should go for most monsters that are weaker then the dogs, 10-B or baseline 10-A via being weaker then Greater Dog

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think that's fine. I'll ask some other people to comment on here tomorrow.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sans throwing large bones at high speeds wac calced at Street level+ or Wall level

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Not sure how well that would mesh with his bones passing through you instead of actually impacting, at difference of Papyrus' own bones.

Still, his magic can Definitly hurt people at that level, yes.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Ffs, you might as well just rename the verse Underfail at this point, it's getting everything good taken away from it.

 

[Eficiente]

But at least it's funny.

Can someone make a blog with all this tier 9 feats listed?

 

[QuasiYuri]

9-B seems consistent for bosses and strong monsters.

 

[RethPo]

Heat feats are getting nuked regardless i think. Should mention that Sans could be 10-B to maybe 10-A scaling to glad dummys stats, a training dummy.

Also for charas fall (which should probably scale to frisk), it was visibly super lengthy and chara got up mostly on her own in the image and was able to walk around being supported by asriel. So she probably wasnt hurt THAT badly.

And i think the royal guards would scale to ice wolfs ke considering theyre highly trained monsters and all. Pyropes explosion probably cant be calced directly due to battleboard inconsistencies but any area of effect explosion would be wall level.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For the royal guards, despite their training, their stats are way lower than those from later levels unless I misremember, so I'm unsure about that.

 

[RethPo]

Actually another thing i remember about snowdin monsters. Frisk can fight Jerry alongside snowdin monsters who has 30 defence (which is core monster level), and while frisk damages snowdin monsters normally he also damages jerry but takes a really long time to actually kill them. Which should make snowdin monsters backscale from core monsters actually.

That is a good point and im not sure if it was ever mentioned if they trained extensively or not...

 

[Theuser789]

Isn't the Wolf just a regular Snowdin citizen that we can't even see the stats of? I don't see later monster matter in order to scale of him, to add the people of Snowdin actually do feel less safe without the dogs, like the slime monster who doesn't have his kids out if you kill them, which would imply they see the dogs above this random NPC

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Just about any monster besides the guards is a regular citizen, and not knowing their stats is the problem.

If the guards get murdered, a random buff dog existing in your town would not make you feel reassured.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah but he is from Snowdin, later areas don't matter.

They can literally see the dude thrown ice every day, maybe it's because the guard is stronger than their neighbor, this isn't a random guy, they all live together and yet prefer the guard, but idk, you do you I don't want to keep arguing

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

...Why? There is nothing stating that Ungerground monsters separated one another based on power.

No. A random strong dude existing in your town won't stop a parent from being afraid for their children after murders.

There is no proof, simply put.

 

[Theuser789]

You are wrong about them knowing about the monsters, they just feel unsafe, they don't know you killed them, nor that they are dead, it's a common trope



(It says there it's when you kill Papyrus but the slime guy statment applies if you kill the dogs as well)

The rest just agree to disagree, idc about VSBW stats to keep arguing

 

[RethPo]

Think what ricsis trying to say is that, its not really that guys job to protect a villiage. Like, if the police just stopped monitoring your area and no authority was around to watch for violent criminals, do ya really think youll feel safe because you have a beefcake neighbour who only works as a simple lumberjack?

Although i think a better argument is simply that a trained or "athletic" monster would be around the level of that beefcake doggo.
Either way i dunno if it matters since i did bring up that backscaling snowdin monsters from jerrys durability which matches up to core monsters.

 

[Theuser789]

Your comparassion doesn't work because the police usualy have better tools and equipment than regular citizens, they aren't respected only because of their uniform. The only difference from a monster is the strengh of their magic, I wouldn't need the police if I had more tools then them, which is what's implied by having the Ice Wolf be so above them, I don't think it really matters if this isn't his job since even kids fight you, honestly this argument only exists because the guy has a feat, we wouldn't say he is above the guard if he hasn't even if the narrative is the same, like we do with other NPC's

Anyways you are free to disagree, I won't clog the thread with my posts anymore

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That dialogue makes them out to just feel like something is wrong with no knowledge of why... which is not a good argument, since the ice dog would not be able to even slightly oppose a genocide route Frisk, 9-B or not. If we are going with them just feeling how things are without reasoning, the presence of that dog changes nothing.

Simply put, that dog's stats are unknown, so when there's an assumption to make, the one that leads to lower stats tends to be the one taken.

 

[Theuser789]

This happens in a neutral route even if you only kill the dogs, it's probably because they aren't present in the city, you are wrong in saying this is genocide Frisk since in genocide they all flee

Also it's not a dog, it's a wolf

 

[RethPo]

I dunno if this debate matters all that much because well...

Frisk can fight Jerry alongside snowdin monsters who has 30 defence (which is core monster level), and while frisk damages snowdin monsters normally he also damages jerry but takes a really long time to actually kill them. Which should make snowdin monsters backscale from core monsters.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Frisk can damage all monsters with a 1 stat. They finish the ruins by (potentially) damaging Toriel. On the other hand, they do 1 damage to Undyne while she doesn't have her armor, despite properly damaging her with armor.

That's just monsters being susceptible to intent.

And there being a random monster with a higher durability than any of the guards is also a problem with the idea of the guards scaling to the other monsters by default.

Snowdrake is superior to Lesser Dog in all ways and only 1 ATK behind Doggo. Chilldrake's is outright equal to Lesser Dog in stats. Gyftrot has higher ATK than all of the dog guards, and his DEF is equal to Greater Dog. Icecap is 11 to Lesser Dog's 12, but has a higher DEF by 1.


The guards are not at all powerful compared to everyday monsters you come across. To say that they should be stronger than a monster by virtue of being trained guards is just wrong.

 

[Theuser789]

I dunno if this debate matters all that much because well...

Not really a debate, I am just pointing out incorrect information, I don't really want to debate Undertale stats in this wikia, too much work

 

[RethPo]

Thats because frisk varies with determination. While having enough determination, power or whatevs to fight snowdin monsters normally he only deals minute damage to jerry. Theyre able to take the same amount of force that can somewhat harm a core level monster, thats pretty obvious backscaling. And that was at a point where frisk had no determination and was not trying to hurt undyne at all (as in holding back)

And its not intent. Frisk does it even on the pacifist route where he has virtually no killing intent at all.

Jerrys just a stone wall who has stats listed comparably to higher monsters. It really doesnt contradict anything. Im neutral on the guards scaling to ice wolf anyways.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Being on a route does not determin their intent, you can go full pacifist up to the hotland and kill everyone if you feel like it.

Frisk is able to hurt Asgore and Froggit while their stats are 1.
They are unable to hurt Undyne at all regardless of equipment even if she has no armor.
Them punching a tomato with full force only makes it fall over.
The canon reason why damage to monsters varies is due to them being weak to intent.

Ergo, Frisk can damage them with a 1 stat because of their intent, and not raw physicals.

 

[RethPo]

Except thats entirely the players choice. Your intent only ever increases the moment you choose to actually kill someone. Outside that you can attack every monster in the game and use that as a way to spare everyone. Sans says in the pacifist judgement that you refused to hurt anyone, striving to do the fight thing and didnt gain any love. You can go the entire route entirely running away from monsters and still take hits from them. Killing intent is impossible in all of those situations (until you choose to kill someone).

*Stats virtually function as addons and only increase from lv (killing intent and frisks stats in the face of monsters) or defences from armour and just affect how much damage you take and deal in fights. It doesnt contradict him varying with determination if thats what youre trying to argue.
*It doesnt matter. Frisk does the exact same damage with a "full power hit" as he does with a fake hit. The event was scripted so that frisk had no intent to even remotely hurt undyne and she says that. Thats blatantly holding back.
*The tomato is just plot induced stupidity and a gag. Even a normal child irl could destroy that tomato with full force, ignoring feats frisk has beyond that.
*No. Its canon that frisk weakens monsters the more killing intent they have. Its not canon that frisk equalises every monster to his level with a tiny amount of killing intent. And headcanon that he has this in pacifist when its not even remotely implied and hes at minimum possible killing intent.

The notion is even contracicted by my example. Frisk takes forever to kill jerry while hes fighting snowdin monsters normally. If he has the same tiny killing intent throughout the pacifist route which brings all monsters including core monsters down to his level, then why would jerry suddenly be too durable for frisk to deal with when defences and attack stats would make hardly any difference to frisk?

Thats not counting the times frisk split mettatons robots with soul bullets and took explosives from ps flowey which would put him outright wall level assuming he didnt vary.

 

[RethPo]

Also to back up why determination gives power boosts. Even ignoring the undyne example if you wanna say its a specific instance. Asriel in his fight calls it the power that let frisk get that far. Its not just reffering to the ability to save and load either. The same fight acknowledges if frisk has previously used save or not and asriel still says that line regardless. He even powers up afterwards after being impressed by frisks ability to survive a powerful attack from him and says "lets see what good your determination does against this", essentially testing the limits of frisks determination.

The other reason is in the genocide run, Chara states that you were getting stronger throughout the run and that these things increase as well as determination. Lv and xp being killing intent only, and hp, attack and defence increasing only through items (completely optional) or through gaining lv. Sans here and here talks about the players determination in reference as their inability to quit and persistence to keep playing as an act of determination (as well as the likes of flowey continuing playing being a result of determination as well). Basically determination increases in genocide and is pretty much the thing chara feeds off of and allows them to reincarnate in the first place.

In other words. The only way frisk could have become stronger in that route is from determination. Lv and exp give no power increase unless its in the face of monsters and items (which are mostly magical defences) are totally optional and change nothing with what chara says.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You seem to not understand what the argument is about....

Frisk' scaling isn't what is being discussed, and I never claimed that monsters are equalized.

I claimed that there is no argument that can let you scale that dog to the guards that doesn't rely on assumptions. The guards are not stronger than the citizens already, so that is not a reason. As for claiming that Frisk can hurt someone with high durability...


Frisk can hurt people as strong as Toriel in the ruins already, with their stats at 1. The reason we are given to why monsters are susceptible to attacks from humans is their own desire to fight, or lack thereof, making their defenses weaker. That doesn't mean they are all equalized.

But it certainly means there is no proof you can bring that shows Frisk being able to hurt someone if they have no desire to. Being in a pacifist run doesn't mean you have no ill desires at all. You can at any point decide to kill, and Sans will tell you you're pure of heart even if you sold your soul to Chara.

Just because a monster has a high DEF stat, doesn't mean that Frisk harming them makes anyone scale up.

 

[RethPo]

Oh uh. Sorry if im going a bit off course or misunderstanding here lemme reread.

I claimed that there is no argument that can let you scale that dog to the guards that doesn't rely on assumptions. The guards are not stronger than the citizens already, so that is not a reason. As for claiming that Frisk can hurt someone with high durability...

Well i think how much training the guards did is questionable but i see your point here. Though a lot of the monsters you encounter that are stronger tend to be beefcakes like aaron, evolved monsters or ones that use explosives. Papyrus is actually a pretty highly trained monster who is noted as being extremely tough by undyne, and is supposed to be the strongest monster you face in snowdin so maybe he can scale?

Frisk can hurt people as strong as Toriel in the ruins already, with their stats at 1. The reason we are given to why monsters are susceptible to attacks from humans is their own desire to fight, or lack thereof, making their defenses weaker. That doesn't mean they are all equalized.

Well frisks attack and defence stats arent really visible during fights far as im aware though his lv is. Besides also humans being stated as outright physically above monsters, frisk even having small harmful intent throughout the pacifist run would only weaken the monsters slightly. Lv has always been portrayed as gradually raising frisks stats, in the face of monsters going by lore. Frisk taking fighting or hits from everyone with the same small amount of harmful intent or weakening them massively with that just doesnt even make sense narratively. It wouldnt allow him to deal damage to someone like toriel as well as a weaker monster while having basically the same amount of harmful intent. That would be quite literally equalising every monster to around or near his level which is why i brought up the jerry example.

And still, its killing intent that affects monsters, not just hurtful alone. Harming someone can be used as an act of mercy and never changes how frisk effects monsters later on at all. Its like if you beat up someone who was charging at you with a knife, it doesnt necessarily mean you inheretly had any cruel intentions which is what affects lv.

But it certainly means there is no proof you can bring that shows Frisk being able to hurt someone if they have no desire to.

No, its an instance where frisk was canonically holding back whether you use the fake attack option or normal attack ingame. Taking a "you cant prove frisk has no harmful intent in every other instance" and using that as a basis for how frisk scales seems like some hasty generalisation. Theres instances where frisk has literally running away from undyne yet taking spear attacks from them.

Being in a pacifist run doesn't mean you have no ill desires at all. You can at any point decide to kill, and Sans will tell you you're pure of heart even if you sold your soul to Chara.

Just because youre a pure hearted pacifist doesnt mean you are completely incapable of turning around and harming someone. Its entirely the players choice, which chara/frisk are influenced by which is the main point of the story. You may have a point in there, though selling your soul to chara doesnt seem to change how you affect monsters or how they affect you in a pacifist run. Whether or not you did a geno run previously likely doesnt effect your intentions in the run at all until chara oc takes control at the end.

Just because a monster has a high DEF stat, doesn't mean that Frisk harming them makes anyone scale up.

It kinda does though. If a monster can take the exact same attack from the same person that damages a core level monster then that is blatant backscaling. The only way you can refute that is either by saying frisk weakens everyone with intent in a manner where he can damage anyone or just outright saying jerrys dura shouldnt scale to core monsters with 30 attack and defence.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Undyne herself mentions how tough Papyrus he is, so he can scale. Though, he does negate durability, during a constant 4 damage regardless of your DEF.

The point of selling your SOUL was to counter the Sans point specifically, he will still tell you that you are a pretty swell dude, because he is unaware of what happened pre-true reset. And no, it's referred to as cruel intentions in general, not just killing intent. In-fact, the book points at killing intent as the worst possible case, which obviously means lesser cruel intentions would count too.

And a monster's fighting strength also varies based on their own desire to fight you, and even the worst of the dogs is easily distractable and pretty much loses interest in the fight if you get to pet them. Jerry for sure doesn't care for the fight, he literally won't hit back even if you slowly start killing him.

And with Jerry, his DEF is on that level, but he is made noticeably harder to beat. Even if you have the same stats, he'll eat near ten hits, while the CORE monsters take way less (iirc three to four due to him having a damage reduction of 8 to their -3 to 2). While you can fight toe to toe with the CORE monsters in the CORE, trying to kill someone as durable as them back in Snowdin is a much harder task. This is why while his durability may compare, no-one else would scale to 9-B based on him.

(Also, Undyne's ATK goes from 50 to 41 without armor... but her defense goes from 20 to 21. Make of that what you will)

 

[Theuser789]

Though, he does negate durability, during a constant 4 damage regardless of your DEF.

Honestly I am curious about this since I tried to find this before but I couldn't, do you have any references about Papyrus doing always the same damage?

 

[RethPo]

The point of selling your SOUL was to counter the Sans point specifically, he will still tell you that you are a pretty swell dude, because he is unaware of what happened pre-true reset. And no, it's referred to as cruel intentions in general, not just killing intent. In-fact, the book points at killing intent as the worst possible case, which obviously means lesser cruel intentions would count too.

Well, sans judges by both your actions and how much killing intent you posess since he knows about your lv. He has no real way of knowing about the geno run unless its through face expressions. Hes an extremely judge of character and him being able to point you out as being a great person and having basically no cruel intentions is hardly invalidated at all since you pretty much are that based on what you do in the run, and murderous intent from past runs is quite literally lost.

While its true the book says that, the intent to hurt someone like i mentioned isnt inheretly cruel intent which is actually what distances you from monsters. Because as i mentioned, you can go the entire route punching people or just being a complete asshole, and it will have no effect on how you damage or take hits from monsters ever. Frisk doesnt have to exactly go full ghandi in order to not weaken monsters through intent, and even if he did, whatever he has in pacifist just isnt realistically enough to drastically weaken monsters by that much, nothing has ever implied it. Determination scaling just has more sustinance tbh, but idk if its actually necessary discussing that topic rn...

And a monster's fighting strength also varies based on their own desire to fight you, and even the worst of the dogs is easily distractable and pretty much loses interest in the fight if you get to pet them. Jerry for sure doesn't care for the fight, he literally won't hit back even if you slowly start killing him.

That is... actually a really good point. Normally it is a one shot although frisk is normally already fighting at the level of enemies he does one shot off guard. Though jerry isnt exactly sparing you or totally off guard he doesnt have much interest in actually fighting or really defending himself. Monsters attacks and defences are built on emotion and a monster expressing mercy and getting attacked, or just not expressing anything at all is naturally going to weaken them or make enemies more deadly. So um, yeah i have to agree with you here.

And with Jerry, his DEF is on that level, but he is made noticeably harder to beat. Even if you have the same stats, he'll eat near ten hits, while the CORE monsters take way less (iirc three to four due to him having a damage reduction of 8 to their -3 to 2). While you can fight toe to toe with the CORE monsters in the CORE, trying to kill someone as durable as them back in Snowdin is a much harder task. This is why while his durability may compare, no-one else would scale to 9-B based on him.

Thats would be because frisk was only strong enough at that point to fight snowdin monsters "normally" and kill them in around three hits while taking more to kill an off guard jerry. Frisk tends to also not really adapt to stone walls very well (mettaton and jerry mostly).