Type 5 Acausality Rewording

[Furudo_Erika]

DT says the nonexistance it self must erased in conceptually

I mean not being nonexistance in conceptual level and can have NEP 2. But being outside the nonexistance it self on conceptual level and can have NEP 2

And the "conceptual nonexistance" he mean is the aspeck of nonexistance (aspeck type 2)

Yes, but this is only due to the specific topic in the verse. This does NOT apply to NEP 2 in general.

 

[Agnaa]

Yall are derailing super hard.

True. I kept thinking that every post I made would end the discussion, but it just kept going. I'll take this to Fixxed's wall.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Types 4 and 5 do have enough of a distinction to keep them separate. A type 4 can still be interacted with normally. You throw a regular punch at a type 4 and it connects. A type 5 will not.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Not always, as Type 4 is a different causality system or a higher level of one.

You would not be able to land a hit on a Type 4 due to not operating on the same system/level as them in the first place

 

[Vietthai96]

to be fair, people on this wiki just arbitrary think that Type 4 can be interacted normally while Type 5 is not, logically speaking, you can't interacting with type 4 in the first place if you not operating on the same system as them

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Type 4: "Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality"
We can only hit things which fall under our own law of causality, this is not much different from interacting with things alien to our own laws of nature.

Imagine trying to hit something which operates on different laws of physics...well, you can't really do so as they are different systems. Same concept applies here.

 

[Agnaa]

You're seriously overstating the stuff that qualifies for type 4. Any "weird causality" stuff qualifies, even if it's shown to do absolutely nothing in the story.

Beings that come from a realm with a "different flow of time" that get interacted with normally and show no resistances to anything qualify for it.

 

[Vietthai96]

nah, this matter kinda subjective, but i think we derail enough, since this thread is about type 5

 

[Furudo_Erika]

You're seriously overstating the stuff that qualifies for type 4. Any "weird causality" stuff qualifies, even if it's shown to do absolutely nothing in the story.

Beings that come from a realm with a "different flow of time" that get interacted with normally and show no resistances to anything qualify for it.

Time and causality are not exactly related though.
Something can exist in a "different flow of time", but that tells nothing about their causality system. Hell, it could be the same exact system as ours, only that said realm just has a faster/slower time flow. imo, "different time flow" is not enough for Type 4 at all, as it has nothing to do with causality itself, only the flow of time.

 

[Sniper670]

"They're subject to a higher form not a lower form" is a hell of a lot better then "Let's just pretend that they're beyond every form despite anti-feats". And it's what we use for just about every NLF thing on the wiki.

"Why do we say invulnerable characters can be damaged by higher-D characters?"

Because their invulnerability only works to the extent of their setting.

"Why aren't all omnipotent characters tier 0?"

Because we only consider them all powerful over their setting.

Causality is more like Nonexistent physiology than Invulnerability.

Being high tiered won't magically give you the ability to interact with me when I'm removed/untied from cause and effect. It has nothing to do with how strong you are, or what dimension you exist in

If I exist before the law/concept of cause and effect and I exist beyond these laws and therefore cannot be interacted with, there's no reason to assume you can bypass it just because you're stronger

 

[Jinsye]

Being high tiered won't magically give you the ability to interact with me when I'm removed/untied from cause and effect. It has nothing to do with how strong you are, or what dimension you exist in

But causality is tied to dimensions though time is a dimension

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But causality is tied to dimensions though time is a dimension

Dimension-wise, yes. Not mathematically.

A character with an inaccessible cardinal amount of power would not be able to harm a 10-B with Type 5. This is due to their power being sheer numbers, not by higher dimensions.

 

[Jinsye]

Anyways.

The idea that I have is just adding a "superior/beyond to the systems of causality within the verse" to the acausality note. This is to prevent NLFs and whatnot. Type 5 Acausality is not being superior to every single form of causal systems to ever exist, but more being beyond the causal systems within the verse and not being able to be interacted with because of that.

It is a power that's worth keeping around, just because of the difference between it and type 4. We treat type 4 acausality as being under the laws of lower level cause and effect, like it or not. If you punch someone they would undergo change, just in a different system.

And as for the argument for "A type 5 acausal can't be depicted as doing anything". That doesn't hold much water in VSBW. Higher-order beings can't be depicted by normal visual mediums yet we still index them. A nonexistent being shouldn't be able to be described at all, yet we still index them. Everything at such high levels probably can't be depicted completely literally going by normal human forms, but we'd still go by descriptions and whatnot.

 

[Agnaa]

Time and causality are not exactly related though. Something can exist in a "different flow of time", but that tells nothing about their causality system. Hell, it could be the same exact system as ours, only that said realm just has a faster/slower time flow. imo, "different time flow" is not enough for Type 4 at all, as it has nothing to do with causality itself, only the flow of time.

I think time and causality are related; you can't have causality without some ordering of events. Unless your causality is just an unchanging "these things are coeternal", which doesn't really feel like one causing the other to me.

Still, to get things on a more substantive note, I wouldn't want a vague "I come from another realm with different causality" which ends up meaning literally nothing in ordinary reality giving them any abilities.

Causality is more like Nonexistent physiology than Invulnerability.

Being high tiered won't magically give you the ability to interact with me when I'm removed/untied from cause and effect. It has nothing to do with how strong you are, or what dimension you exist in

If I exist before the law/concept of cause and effect and I exist beyond these laws and therefore cannot be interacted with, there's no reason to assume you can bypass it just because you're stronger

Being higher-tiered should let you bypass, as you have never shown the ability to be removed/untied from higher-tiered cause and effect. That's why being higher-tiered lets you bypass resistances.

And the sort of argument you make can be argued for invulnerability, and every other NLF ability. "Why should my passive luck not work on a tier 0 being? Being strong doesn't stop luck from being a factor."

While I know that some people on this site have made arguments like yours to each other and taken them to be true, it goes against the reasoning we use for almost everything else on the site, and really should not be applied.

The idea that I have is just adding a "superior/beyond to the systems of causality within the verse" to the acausality note.

I'd rather just "a system of causality", idk why someone who's beyond the series' 2-A causality but not the series' 1-A causality, and because of that is unable to be affected by 3-D beings but not 1-A beings, should be barred from getting Acausality Type 5.

And as for the argument for "A type 5 acausal can't be depicted as doing anything". That doesn't hold much water in VSBW. Higher-order beings can't be depicted by normal visual mediums yet we still index them. A nonexistent being shouldn't be able to be described at all, yet we still index them. Everything at such high levels probably can't be depicted completely literally going by normal human forms, but we'd still go by descriptions and whatnot.

This is quite a silly response. This isn't a simple case of "Our eyes can't properly see 4-dimensional objects", a type 5 acausal can't be depicted as doing anything (unless we believe them to be guided by a higher form of causality) because that goes against the definition. The same is true for nonexistent beings, they're only nonexistent to a certain extent, not to all extents. Such things can't be depicted to their full extents because they're inherently contradictory (or inherently incapable of doing anything).

 

[Phoenks]

Anyways.

The idea that I have is just adding a "superior/beyond to the systems of causality within the verse" to the acausality note. This is to prevent NLFs and whatnot. Type 5 Acausality is not being superior to every single form of causal systems to ever exist, but more being beyond the causal systems within the verse and not being able to be interacted with because of that.

Uh, what? This still has the same exact issue. Even in the context of the verse, there is generally no way to prove they exist outside of all systems of causality.

And as for the argument for "A type 5 acausal can't be depicted as doing anything". That doesn't hold much water in VSBW. Higher-order beings can't be depicted by normal visual mediums yet we still index them. A nonexistent being shouldn't be able to be described at all, yet we still index them. Everything at such high levels probably can't be depicted completely literally going by normal human forms, but we'd still go by descriptions and whatnot.

Sure they can be depicted as doing stuff, but it is far too much of an anti-feat to be legitimate proof of something being "outside of causality" and thus those characters shouldn't be given Type 5.

The point is you can't prove they are outside of causality if they end up participating in any cause and effect, regardless of how minuscule, because it directly contradicts the definition of the thing you're trying to label them as.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Which how Type 4 is treated here makes zero sense...if you operate on a different causal system, you are effectively operating on completely different laws of nature.

But that's going by a logical idea on what a real different casuality system would be like in comparison to ours; completely alien to our laws.

Type 5 is, kinda meh. It makes even less sense than Type 4 and it kinda already covers a lot of aspects of Type 5.

"A Type 5 cannot be depicted as doing anything". Well, logically...it absolutely cannot as that's a sheer contradiction to Type 5.

Whether or not it is indexed is irrelevant here, just the fact that it doing anything is automatically an anti-feat by DESCRIPTION of Type 5. The only way for it to really work, is to paradoxically operate while not being bound by any causal systems.

The point is, it is fundamentally impossible to prove they are "truly beyond cause and effect", as having any sense of chronology outright contradicts Type 5 by definition.

 

[Agnaa]

They technically can exist without contradictions, like God (Unsong)'s second key, which just exists and is described once, never doing anything in the story.

(Its first key does technically create reality, but that's the only thing it ever does, it never changes or takes additional actions, it's just a prime mover)

 

[Sniper670]

So.... We make requirements strict then?

 

[Agnaa]

As I said, I think the best workaround is just to define Acausality Type 5 as being beyond/outside at least one system of causality, and being difficult to interact with because of that.

Some anti-feats would still exist (directly interacting with that system of cause and effect if you're meant to be outside of it), but most could just be dismissed as happening through a higher system of cause and effect.

 

[Phoenks]

So.... We make requirements strict then?

This could work, but it would be so strict that I doubt more than a handful of characters would qualify... if any at all. So it probably isn't worth it.

As I said, I think the best workaround is just to define Acausality Type 5 as being beyond/outside at least one system of causality, and being difficult to interact with because of that.

Some anti-feats would still exist (directly interacting with that system of cause and effect if you're meant to be outside of it), but most could just be dismissed as happening through a higher system of cause and effect.

I am in agreement with this.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

They technically can exist without contradictions, like God (Unsong)'s second key, which just exists and is described once, never doing anything in the story.

(Its first key does technically create reality, but that's the only thing it ever does, it never changes or takes additional actions, it's just a prime mover)

But...it doesn't even have Acasuality of any form:

"Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 2), Transduality (Type 3), Light Manipulation, Immortality (Type 5), Omnipresence, Avatar Creation, Information Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Life Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Creation | Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2), Transduality (Type 4)"

It lacks Acasuality entirely.

 

[Sniper670]

Under Transduality Type 4

 

[Furudo_Erika]

As I said, I think the best workaround is just to define Acausality Type 5 as being beyond/outside at least one system of causality, and being difficult to interact with because of that.

Some anti-feats would still exist (directly interacting with that system of cause and effect if you're meant to be outside of it), but most could just be dismissed as happening through a higher system of cause and effect.

Isn't that Type 4 though? As simply being "beyond causality" isn't automatically Type 5 and is thus defaulted to Type 4, or at least that's what I heard and seen numerous times. Type 5 is stricter than that. Also, Type 4 covers higher systems of cause and effect as well, as I have also heard multiple times.

I should also mention that said "higher system" would just be another causality system which again, is covered by Type 4; literally in the description.

 

[Agnaa]

But...it doesn't even have Acasuality of any form:

"Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 2), Transduality (Type 3), Light Manipulation, Immortality (Type 5), Omnipresence, Avatar Creation, Information Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Life Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Creation | Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2), Transduality (Type 4)"

It lacks Acasuality entirely.

It doesn't have any explicit statements of acausality, just stuff about being "beyond time" that would be consistent with it.

The point of my post was that characters can be written that don't contradict such high interpretations of acausality. That's just the example I know, even though it doesn't qualify for acausality itself.

Isn't that Type 4 though? As simply being "beyond causality" isn't automatically Type 5 and is this defaulted to Type 4, or at least that's what I heard and seen numerous times. Type 5 is stricter than that. Also, Type 4 covers higher systems of cause and effect as well, as I have also heard multiple times.

Type 4 does not require being difficult to interact with.

To address some of the comments you've made before, I'd draw a comparison between Acausality Type 4 and characters who originally come from a universe with vastly different laws of physics. That doesn't necessarily make them unable to be punched, since they don't carry around those different physics with them, all that such a statement would give is the ability to still function in the face of certain kinds of physics manip. While Acausality Type 5 would be compared to characters who operate under different physics, and as such can't be interacted with under ordinary laws of physics.

 

[Jinsye]

As I said, I think the best workaround is just to define Acausality Type 5 as being beyond/outside at least one system of causality, and being difficult to interact with because of that.

This is fine. I'm still of the opinion time should be included too but that depends on the direction of the thread

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But Type 4 CAN be hard to interact with, especially if their causality system explicitly lacks the "effect" part of "cause and effect".

From the sounds of it, Type 5 is just "Type 4, but just hard to interact with". Which, is such a small thing and imo, isn't worthy for an entire type to itself, as again...Type 4s can STILL be hard to interact with, sometimes even next to impossible.

 

[Agnaa]

Well the idea is that any type 4s which are hard to interact with would just get type 5.

I think it's important to be able to tell whether a character merely resists causality/fate manip, or if they need very special abilities to interact with at all.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Well the idea is that any type 4s which are hard to interact with would just get type 5.

I think it's important to be able to tell whether a character merely resists causality/fate manip, or if they need very special abilities to interact with at all.

From the sounds of it, Type 5 is just "Type 4, but just hard to interact with".

Which...why exactly does this need an ENTIRE type to itself...? As once again, some Type 4s can be ridiculously hard to interact with given context.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Type 4 - Irregular relationship with causality. Has resistance to causality hax, fate hax, precog, yadda yadda. Can however still be interacted with normally.

Type 5 - Is outside regular causality, functioning on a different system of it altogether. Cannot be interacted with normally.

Just tweak type 4’s definition a bit to avoid confusion and it could work.

 

[Sniper670]

But Type 4 CAN be hard to interact with, especially if their causality system explicitly lacks the "effect" part of "cause and effect".

From the sounds of it, Type 5 is just "Type 4, but just hard to interact with". Which, is such a small thing and imo, isn't worthy for an entire type to itself, as again...Type 4s can STILL be hard to interact with, sometimes even next to impossible.

Type 4 operates on different laws of causality

Type 5 operates outside the laws entirely. There can be no other "causality" because they're independent of it

Whatever thing they're working under, is surely not under the control of causality system, even if you believe they're still under it

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Type 4 - Irregular relationship with causality. Has resistance to causality hax, fate hax, precog, yadda yadda. Can however still be interacted with normally.

Type 5 - Is outside regular causality, functioning on a different system of it altogether. Cannot be interacted with normally.

Just tweak type 4’s definition a bit to avoid confusion and it could work.

Causality system which lacks "effects" debunks that

There's no "effect", so there cannot be interaction as there's no "effect" of interaction

 

[Agnaa]

Which...why exactly does this need an ENTIRE type to itself...? As once again, some Type 4s can be ridiculously hard to interact with given context.

I already answered all of that succinctly in the post you're responding to. Please point out which part of my explanation you disagree with or have trouble understanding, otherwise there's no point in us just repeating ourselves to each other over and over.

(As an aside, I don't agree with Yemma's post, but I've already explained why so many times that I cbf repeating myself)

 

[Furudo_Erika]

As I said, I think the best workaround is just to define Acausality Type 5 as being beyond/outside at least one system of causality, and being difficult to interact with because of that.

Some anti-feats would still exist (directly interacting with that system of cause and effect if you're meant to be outside of it), but most could just be dismissed as happening through a higher system of cause and effect.

Basically, this entire thing.
All of it is already covered by Type 4, even the part of being "difficult to interact with", as lo and beyond: Type 4 can be next to impossible with under context on how their system works.

Being beyond/outside at least one system of causality? Already defaulted to Type 4 without further context.
Difficult to interact with? Very contextual, but Type 4 can still accomplish that.
Higher systems of cause and effect? Also covered by Type 4.

The only way for it to really be separated, is that Type 5 simply becomes "Being beyond/outside at least one system of causality", instead of being defaulted to Type 4. Which no matter what, trying to effect something outside a system of causality would already be extremely hard to do in the first place; also granting stuff like resistance to fate, causality, and precog, among others as well.

My suggestion is:
Type 4: Irregular systems of causality, or systems that behave differently from our own.
Type 5: Explicitly being beyond/outside at least one system of causality.

 

[Agnaa]

In response to "Type 4 can be difficult to interact with" I say "No, because definitionally, if a type 4 is difficult to interact with they're type 5 instead".

Simply having resistance to fate/causality manip and precog is not the extent of "difficult to interact with" envisioned; pretty much no ability would be able to work.

I would rather not assume that sort of thing without at least some indication. And I would rather not have "almost impossible to interact with" and "just resists 3 abilities" put under the same umbrella, due to the widely different effects they have on fights.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

In response to "Type 4 can be difficult to interact with" I say "No, because definitionally, if a type 4 is difficult to interact with they're type 5 instead".

Simply having resistance to fate/causality manip and precog is not the extent of "difficult to interact with" envisioned; pretty much no ability would be able to work.

I would rather not assume that sort of thing without at least some indication. And I would rather not have "almost impossible to interact with" and "just resists 3 abilities" put under the same umbrella, due to the widely different effects they have on fights.

Causality system that lacks "effect" says "hi".
Can't interact with them, if there's no "effect" of interaction in the first place.

 

[Vietthai96]

But simply having resistance to fate, causal, precog hax doesn't automatically give you type 4 though

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But simply having resistance to fate, causal, precog hax doesn't automatically give you type 4 though

I never said it did. I only gave a couple examples of what Type 4 can give

 

[Agnaa]

Causality system that lacks "effect" says "hi".
Can't interact with them, if there's no "effect" of interaction in the first place.

Please refer to this part of my last post:

No, because definitionally, if a type 4 is difficult to interact with they're type 5 instead".

But simply having resistance to fate, causal, precog hax doesn't automatically give you type 4 though

Everyone here knows that. I am talking about the implications of the ability, not the requirements to meet it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Jezz, guys we goes off-track to to the point that i completely confuse with everything

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Causality system that lacks "effect" says "hi".
Can't interact with them, if there's no "effect" of interaction in the first place.

Please refer to this part of my last post:


But simply having resistance to fate, causal, precog hax doesn't automatically give you type 4 though

Everyone here knows that. I am talking about the implications of the ability, not the requirements to meet it.

"Causality system that lacks "effect" says "hi". Can't interact with them, if there's no "effect" of interaction in the first place."

"No, because definitionally, if a type 4 is difficult to interact with they're type 5 instead".

Not only would they be "difficult to interact with", but next to impossible as the lack of "effects" prevents interaction from even happening in the first place.