Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology for Monika

[Mr. Bambu]

"This doesn't debunk anything, like, being able to restore a concept after being erased doesn't make said a concept not a concept."

It does, in fact, do that. Monika is manipulating data, she says that, I've been saying that for quite some time. She does nothing else. She also is famously not very good at it. When you delete a file, where does it go? The shit isn't just gone from your computer. Nor can you assure me, without significant levels of datamining at least, that the files outside of .chr aren't instructed to simply remake the files. There exists something of these characters still in the game.

Even ignoring the other context that makes this revision wrong, this is still fundamentally true. Only their .chr file is deleted, not the files supporting said .chr file. Context, context, context, always ignoring the context.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sorry, I just saw this, but to say it capped at data level just because it is a data is a dishonesty at it's finest, no offense. It's like saying a Big Bang is restricted to 4-dimensional spacetime despite it being higher dimensional is naturally possible. If we assume it works like the basic existence of the characters then I don't see not being equal to a concept.

It is not, but you are free to say what you like. Nor is that really the point of what I said. It isn't dishonest to say "well, we have a higher point of view than those in-verse and can see that they are not in fact conceptually erased but rather deleted, thus they are not type 2 nonexistent". It would be dishonest, however, to blatantly and belligerently ignore that context and say "No, anime wamen type 2 nonexistent coz they delete file".

 

[Planck69]

Reading through this, Mr. Bambu makes sense to me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd also just like to parrot a more succinct way of putting things posted by another user who I won't name coz I wouldn't condemn friends to taking part in CRTs.

"I think the very fact we separate Information Manipulation from Conceptual Manipulation should dispel that argument, yeah."

data / information manip =/= concept manip

unga bunga

 

[Rikimarox2]

unga bunga

Well said.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Correct.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

It does, in fact, do that. Monika is manipulating data, she says that, I've been saying that for quite some time. She does nothing else. She also is famously not very good at it. When you delete a file, where does it go? The shit isn't just gone from your computer. Nor can you assure me, without significant levels of datamining at least, that the files outside of .chr aren't instructed to simply remake the files. There exists something of these characters still in the game.

Our computer isn't the part of the reality, aka the verse itself so this logic technically doesn't make sense.

Even ignoring the other context that makes this revision wrong, this is still fundamentally true. Only their .chr file is deleted, not the files supporting said .chr file. Context, context, context, always ignoring the context.

The main argument is not about "file is deleted so conceptual manipulation gg" but regarding how it is equatable to ones very fondation of existence, and context is there, the erasure of said file also ultimately erases their acts from plot or history as mere chain effects, something you haven't counter until now. And what glitches? (2). Chr file being related or tied to another file is irrelevant right now since I never argue the file being a concept, but their nonexistent on conceptual level or something comparable, is.

It is not, but you are free to say what you like. Nor is that really the point of what I said. It isn't dishonest to say "well, we have a higher point of view than those in-verse and can see that they are not in fact conceptually erased but rather deleted, thus they are not type 2 nonexistent". It would be dishonest, however, to blatantly and belligerently ignore that context and say "No, anime wamen type 2 nonexistent coz they delete file".

Literally not the argument, but alright.

data / information manip =/= concept manip

Something I never denied but it should be treated case by case, yeah.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It is indeed a part of the verse itself, though? Like the game acknowledges it is data on the computer. The game's whole shtick is that it is a game on your computer. It manipulates your files as part of how it works. This isn't a rebuttal, what you've provided to me.

It is not. See later text. As I've been saying.

Fascinating, then.

No. DDLC never once presents them as conceptual fundamental things. You and others are, in this thread, trying to present them as such when they are not. Nobody in DDLC is conceptually erased nor is the practice even remotely referred to. Files are deleted, files are restored, nothing more.

Barring the production of more evidence in favor of this thread I am formally against this thread and will remain against this thread. Feel free to contact me if you find something worth noting. Like evidence.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

It is indeed a part of the verse itself, though? Like the game acknowledges it is data on the computer. The game's whole shtick is that it is a game on your computer. It manipulates your files as part of how it works. This isn't a rebuttal, what you've provided to me.

It is not. See later text. As I've been saying.

Fascinating, then.

No. DDLC never once presents them as conceptual fundamental things. You and others are, in this thread, trying to present them as such when they are not. Nobody in DDLC is conceptually erased nor is the practice even remotely referred to. Files are deleted, files are restored, nothing more.

Barring the production of more evidence in favor of this thread I am formally against this thread and will remain against this thread. Feel free to contact me if you find something worth noting. Like evidence.

I still vehemently disagree with all of these, but fair enough, it's not like I can win the argument either. But let's say she is not a type 2, won't that still makes her nonexistent physiology higher to them who are just being conventionally nonexist since she literally was removed from the history and narrative?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

But let's say she is not a type 2, won't that still makes her nonexistent physiology higher to them who are just being conventionally nonexist since she literally was removed from the history and narrative?

I need answer for this, seriously.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Data and files in DDLCs context would go fine for a type 3 concept - it fits the definition. The files are separate from the objects themselves but shape everything in-game, and destroying what shapes them (ie. suicide) corrupts the files.

The data makes up all of reality. Erasing something's data removes it not only from that moment on but from time as a whole. They cannot exist - Sayori "appearing" after she commits suicide and you restart glitches the game. Trying to load save files that contain Sayori is impossible because them containing something that was erased makes them corrupted as well.

The files aren't just the objects at the moment, since they encompass them in every save. Altering the files/data alters the characters and presumably objects. Time is part of the data too since Monika erased it.


I feel people really overblown the meaning of concepts as a - pun intended - concept. Good ol' Plato got em' beefy, but Aristotelian ones can get an easy 1 to 1 with data here. Hell, Aristotle's concepts are pretty much souls, with the caveat that objects also have it (which isn't even that rare in fiction).

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Data and files in DDLCs context would go fine for a type 3 concept - it fits the definition. The files are separate from the objects themselves but shape everything in-game, and destroying what shapes them (ie. suicide) corrupts the files.

The data makes up all of reality. Erasing something's data removes it not only from that moment on but from time as a whole. They cannot exist - Sayori "appearing" after she commits suicide and you restart glitches the game. Trying to load save files that contain Sayori is impossible because them containing something that was erased makes them corrupted as well.

The files aren't just the objects at the moment, since they encompass them in every save. Altering the files/data alters the characters and presumably objects. Time is part of the data too since Monika erased it.


I feel people really overblown the meaning of concepts as a - pun intended - concept. Good ol' Plato got em' beefy, but Aristotelian ones can get an easy 1 to 1 with data here. Hell, Aristotle's concepts are pretty much souls, with the caveat that objects also have it (which isn't even that rare in fiction).

I never think of that way, damn!

 

[Bernkastelll]

Data and files in DDLCs context would go fine for a type 3 concept - it fits the definition. The files are separate from the objects themselves but shape everything in-game, and destroying what shapes them (ie. suicide) corrupts the files.

The data makes up all of reality. Erasing something's data removes it not only from that moment on but from time as a whole. They cannot exist - Sayori "appearing" after she commits suicide and you restart glitches the game. Trying to load save files that contain Sayori is impossible because them containing something that was erased makes them corrupted as well.

The files aren't just the objects at the moment, since they encompass them in every save. Altering the files/data alters the characters and presumably objects. Time is part of the data too since Monika erased it.


I feel people really overblown the meaning of concepts as a - pun intended - concept. Good ol' Plato got em' beefy, but Aristotelian ones can get an easy 1 to 1 with data here. Hell, Aristotle's concepts are pretty much souls, with the caveat that objects also have it (which isn't even that rare in fiction).

thats a excelent point

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I had unfollowed this thread but I see it may have been a mistake.

No. Something serving as a mold doesn't make it a concept. Nor does that make Monika a Type 2 Nonexistent. Data is data. Concepts are concepts. I realize you've made the same point I've made elsewhere- VSBW has a chronic habit of ascribing the words "concepts" and "platonic" and "infinite" and "transcendent" and countless other quasi-intellectual dribble to things to try to make them sound cool/make sense. But in this instance, no. Concepts are ideas. Data is data. Nobody in DDLC has manipulated the concept to erase these individuals- they have, in fact, deleted a few files.

It isn't that hard to grasp the difference between lines of code and fundamental concepts as described by VSBW. Thank you.

To elaborate: Ricsi's post proposes that these files are Type 3 concepts because they function similarly (define the thing, thing changes if you alter the files). This is true, this is how the wiki-defined Type 3 concepts work. But to qualify for Type 3 you need to first qualify to be a concept to begin with. This is data being hacked and slashed and butchered by Monika to achieve in-game effects- she's basically just hacking. Her hacking your PC essentially allows her to tinker with her own world.

 

[manu_zarri]

Monika already has NEP in her profile, and she is only NEP when she gets EE'd, not at the beginning.

then i Agree, it would have been more specific "Eventually NEP" but that's okay I suppose

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

My point is that type 3 conceptual erasure would not be in any way superior here. Erasing something conceptually with type 3 doesn't affect it in the past, and much like how destroying all spheres can destroy the concept of sphere, creating a sphere would also recreate it.

Type 3 conceptual manipulation is literally altering somethings attributes. A bronze ball has matter and shape, and the shape is the concept. (Mind, for Aristoteles things such as sentience and how something behaves are also part of "shape").

If you remove the concept of sphere from the ball of bronze, it will become non-spherical. If you make the ball non-spherical, you removed the concept of sphere from the ball.

The fact that data decides both something's shape and something's matter doesn't make it lesser than type 3 conceptual manipulation.


Which is the problem here. Type 3 concept is outright inferior to manipulating data, at least how it works here.

Being erased from time, to the extent that you cannot exist else reality breaks, is definitely superior.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This does not ostensibly matter in regards to the point of this thread.

"Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of social influence or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept."

Not only is this not a concept (as I granted above, it fits the idea of a "mold" but it still isn't a concept), this line in particular bars it, since Monika is just deleting files.

I'm not arguing data is lesser or greater than concept manip. I'm arguing that this isn't concept manip. Nor should Monika be a Type 2 NEP. Cheers.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

This turns to circular a debate, honestly, if we do treat said data as something equal to a concept because said data is what makes up the verse then they do have conceptual manipulation, data isn't just data in DDLC, you erased their file would also erase them from the entire history and narrative, because files are datas.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But data Alters the attribute of objects without physically altering them.

When she turns up the depression dial she doesn't sit down and talk Sayori into being depressed (she does also do that, but she also messes with the files). When she makes Yuri list for you and your blood, she doesn't make her watch snuff prij to degrade her morality.

Type 3 concepts are just attributes. Altering something attributes without interaction with someone's matter to achieve the effect is type 3 by extension.

She cannot exist in reality, in that reality breaks apart if she does. She never existed, and never will, from the perspective of the universe in-game. She isn't anymore contradictory to type 2 than any other character, since type 2 NEP is a walking oxymoron as is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This turns to circular a debate, honestly, if we do treat said data as something equal to a concept because said data is what makes up the verse then they do have conceptual manipulation, data isn't just data in DDLC, you erased their file would also erase them from the entire history and narrative, because files are datas.

If we did, sure. But we do not. The fact that we have pages defining things that work like concept manip but are not concept manip should be evidence enough that this is the case.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That's not a reason why, that's just saying something is done so we should keep doing it.

You know what, I will make a thread for type 3 conceptual manipulation. It's literally just altering something's attributes without interacting with its matter, which is... common. Way too common to make the ability be made out to be this great thing..

 

[Mr. Bambu]

But data Alters the attribute of objects without physically altering them.

When she turns up the depression dial she doesn't sit down and talk Sayori into being depressed (she does also do that, but she also messes with the files). When she makes Yuri list for you and your blood, she doesn't make her watch snuff prij to degrade her morality.

Type 3 concepts are just attributes. Altering something attributes without interaction with someone's matter to achieve the effect is type 3 by extension.

She cannot exist in reality, in that reality breaks apart if she does. She never existed, and never will, from the perspective of the universe in-game. She isn't anymore contradictory to type 2 than any other character, since type 2 NEP is a walking oxymoron as is.

As in, physically touching them to alter them? If so I can provide you with a long list of powers that do the same thing and similarly are not conceptual in nature.

I'm aware. I'm also aware of how she did it and how this isn't concept manip even if you are trying to present it as such. I'm aware of the clause I quoted above that prevents this and I'm aware of the countless other classifications that actually fit what you're describing that are being ignored. Moving on.

Define concept, please. A concept is an idea. Metaphysical. Intangible. What Monika manipulates is objectively not this. She ***** with your computer, and hamfistedly alters the game as a result. It is never presented as anything more or anything less than this. If you want to say "well data manip in this context is better than concept manip", do so, if you are truly so inclined, I could not care less.

And yet from the perspective of the files that actually uphold this reality, this is objectively false. See arguments listed well above.

I'm tired of running in circles with people who ostensibly only see upgrades. If you find actual credible evidence, bring it forward. Otherwise please stop wasting time.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

As I said, I'll make a thread about it. Long story short though, type 3 conceptual manipulation is not that, no. Type 3 has reality divided into matter and shape.

Matter is self-evident, shape is the attributes of the matter. Be it physical shape, or other things like being alive, being sentient, being red or blue, etc.

Something that alters the attribute in a way that doesn't interact with matter, is type 3 conceptual manip by definition. And that's not an upgrade for everything, that's a "downgrade" for the idea of conceptual manip being superior.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I completly agree with Ricsi here