Two Warriors: Berserker vs Eragon

[Monarch_Laciel]

The small wounds don't kill people because of bleeding, they kill you because if a specific nerve is pinched or blood vessel is closed then your brain shuts down.

Still waiting on that servant biology blog to go with the cosmology blog.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Fate/complete material III

Spiritual Body and Material Body

"Spiritual Body" is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, "Material Body" means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.

When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.

Although both are Material Bodies, the composition of Servants and Humans are drastically different. Naturally, it is impossible to transplant a portion of a Servant's Material Body to a human. However, Emiya Shirou was able to successfully transplant Archer's left arm to replace his own lost left arm. How is this possible? It is because Shirou and Archer ― Heroic Spirit Emiya are the same person.

How to Defeat A Servant

When a Heroic Spirit emerges into this world, he first acquires a Spiritual Core. The Heroic Spirit then materialises as the body envelopes this Spiritual Core. In order to defeat a Heroic Spirit, one must inflict damage to the Spiritual Core. The Spiritual Core gradually diminishes as a result of massive magical energy expenditure or sustaining bodily damage. Under these adverse conditions, the Heroic Spirit's expenditure of magical energy will escalate, and should damaged be inflicted through powerful magical energy, curse, or Noble Phantasm, the Spiritual Core will be destroyed, and the Heroic Spirit will no long be able to remain materialised. The heart and head are connected directly to the Spiritual Core, thus they are the weaknesses of Heroic Spirits. Sustaining damage at these locations will significantly weaken the Spiritual Core.

Battle of Servants

The battle between Servants can be called a process of gradually shaving off the magical energy that forms the their bodies. Attacks that consume a great amount of magical energy will inflict a massive amount of damage on the opponent, but it will also weaken yourself in the process. In order to inflict a great amount of damage with minimum expenditure of magical energy, it is necessary to collect intelligence regarding the enemy and assault his weakness.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You will of course show how beings formed by magical energy somehow possess actual flesh and blood that Eragon's spells can affect.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"Identical in structure as our flesh bodies"

Siegfried pulls out his actual heart.

Artoria can't use Excalibur in Zero because she can't hold it properly after Diarmuid cuts the tendon in her hand.

There's more than enough information given to assume that when the body is created out of magic, it's still created in the physical shape of a biological body. Just with magic particles instead of atoms or something.

 

[Tdtd1234]

Artoria is an exception because she is alive during the grail wars.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

So what is an exception and what is not? It seems like all valid examples of Servants having a biological body is conveniently termed as exceptions by you guys. Something stinks.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The body of a servant is in the image of a human's. It contains all the systems of a normal human. The servant however doesn't need any of them. The heart and brain for example are just connected to the spirit core

 

[TacticalNuke002]

If its so unnecessary, why do Servants die from the loss of those organs. The actual composition of the organs notwithstanding, they should still have the same importance to their being alive as actual organs. Only Servants with battle continuation can stay alive for a while after receiving fatal blows, dying soon after the time limit is up.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except Servants don't die from the lose of those organs. Did you actually read what Regis linked? Servants die from damage to the brain and heart because they have a direct connection to the Spiritual Core. The functions of the brain and the heart, however, remain entirely redundant, as you won't kill a Servant by stopping their blood flow or their brain's biochemistry. And you still need to deal actual damage and not something minor, hence why you don't see "and then he inflicted a small wound to his heart", they are normally crushed or utterly destroyed.

Not to mention, Arthoria is an actual exemption. Is the whole reason she can't even become immaterial, it's her actual flesh and blood body being sent forward in time and summoned.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

We shall agree to disagree, but I haven't seen anything that says all Servant organs are redundant except for heart and brain. Those might be vital targets, but that hardly means everything else in their body is redundant, nor does it mean abilities that target specific vital points of the body are useless.

But even if the spell to tweak Berserker's blood vessel doesn't work, that's hardly going to throw Eragon off considering most people in his verse already have wards against death spells.

So then he just says Jierda and breaks Hercule's body, and then the same situation as above plays out. Or says Letta and paralyses Hercules as he comes charging at him then the situation plays out again.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Death words aren't limited to minor injuries, they're just the most efficient way to kill without using much energy. Eragon is fully capable of destroying the organs if he has to. Brisingr can just explode Berserker from the inside.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yes, Brisingr to the inside would be an entirely viable and flashy method of killing Hercules, if not exactly the most stamina efficient one.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except those organs and such would be made of magical energy. When has Eragon actually done what you have suggested and destroyed objects made of energy? Read what I posted carefully, there's a reason that battle between Servants causes them to lose energy that forms their bodies and why Servants can recover when provided enough energy. Them being spirits given form through magical energy is also why a Grail War usually ends up with 7 dead Servants, as the dead Servants end up being the fuel for the Grail to use to carry out wishes.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Magic energy that is in a material and physical body that can easily be damaged and targeted by Eragon's spells.

Read what you posted carefully and realise that you are seriously wanking Servants if you're trying to argue "you need to be able to damage energy to destroy them".

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except Servants don't show some basic functions, like not being impaired by cold or heat weather no matter how harsh. Or never needing to eat. Or said Servants, many of which are incredibly skilled combatants, ever trying to aim for those organs. Or not needing to eat, and so far not really shown any necessity to breath. Or cases like Karna who get pierced from the inside, we have no reason to think it avoided all of his organs, yet he merely melts the spears and continues on his merry way.

And finally, you actually need to show all of these ways in which he can kill Herc. The same maneuver is not gonna work twice after he regenerates, yet I don't really see 12 options on him to kill Herc with.

 

[Overlord775]

Does Berserker even have a win condiction ?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Oh sure, let me just pull out my Inheritance Cycle ancient language dictionary.

By which I mean

There is an entire language worth of words that Eragon could use to kill Berserker with easily. An entire language which can be fashioned into different sentences to new spells that would not be adapated against simply by rewording the first spell.

Not to mention the singular words that could do it.

Brisingr to make him combust (might even bypass God Hand if he blows him up enough)

Jierda to break his body.

Thrystra to crush his heart.

Garzla to just hit him with a ball of light.

And even just "Wa├¡se néiat" to convert all Hercules' atoms to energy.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Anything even close to grazing the guy that is HIgh 7-A only with magic. Unlikely he won't get any wards up, but is a matter of waiting if it comes to that.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

His wards are always up.

Hercule's win condition is wailing on Eragon long enough that the High 7-A wards run out of energy from the successive 7-A hits.

Which is entirely possible, but I find unlikely to happen before Eragon does any of the above.

 

[Overlord775]

What stops Eragon from just using 12 different ista-death spells?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He doesn't know Hercules is coming back from the first.

 

[Overlord775]

Unless he's a complete fool he would realize that he isn't dead

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He isn't going to be staring at the corpse after he's killed him once to see if he's going to come back.

 

[Overlord775]

Except Berserker having a brain vessel busted open won't stop his charge

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except Berserker having a brain vessel busted open won't stop his charge

But that has less with him being dead and more with him not being affected. Something with its head blown open and not moving is not what you call alive.

 

[Overlord775]

His spells don't make people explode, at least not the ones he normally uses. And he's not going to put more energy into a spell than is necessary for it to work. He'll use as much energy as is necessary to tweak a blood vessel in the brain/heart, and that's it.

^^^^

 

[RegisNex1232]

There's a reason why you can't usually transplant Servant body parts to humans, excluding same characters and homunculi who are just walking Magic Circuits, and that is because ultimately Servants are just magical energy given form. So expecting internal organ damage from spells, which might not work or even matter when it's all magic energy is not a given. The brain and heart, being connected to the Spiritual Core are unique in being vital areas to target due to said connection.

There's also the fact that God Hand exists and I'm not sure how low cost death spells will bypass that given the B Rank and below nullification condition of the Noble Phantasm. Add on his Battle Continuation, which is equal to that of a guy who got stabbed by a cursed spear and could still cast some spells and fight a bit, and what's stopping Eragon from getting rushed after some spells don't work? Especially when he opens with mental attacks first.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Magical energy given form in the shape of a biological human body.

If the body was literally just a solid lump of magic with no internal workings as you are implying then transplanting wouldn't work at all to begin with, seeing as they wouldn't have any of the necessary biological bits to link up with the host.

Cost has nothing to do with rank. If we are going to arbitrarily assign ranks to non Fate magic, something that can instantly kill most things at very low cost would actually be pretty high rank.

His battle continuation wouldn't work against death spells because those death spells primarily target the brain which damage to is one of the things that puts battle continuation users down, and it wouldn't work against his more straight up physical damage spells because he's high 7-A and conventional physical damage spells would make Berserker explode.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And you seem to be ignoring the bit where Eragon would not be surprised if death spells don't work seeing as most people in his verse are warded against them, and would have a more conventional method of killing ready to go

 

[Overlord775]

also is this battle under the FATE System ?

because if yes, then Heracles would have a win con via using Nine Lives

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The damage to things like the brain or etc by death spells is minimal. So far as I have seen, all Death Spells work by minimal, but extremely precise damage to vital points. But again, that vital damage is not gonna do squat to a Servant.

Battle Continuation doesn't matter here because said damage to the brain would need to be big enough to actually affect Herk, at which point Battle Continuation would do nothing.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

The death words, as I said, aren't just limited to minor vital point injuries. In-verse, words spoken in the language of dragons cause changes to the world depending on the word spoken. Death words are any words, which if spoken to a living being, will cause the being to die via the meaning of the word working on their body. In a lot of ways, it is similar to Dovahzul aka Shouts from Elder Scrolls.

Literally anything that can kill is a death word. This includes stuff like spontaneous internal combustion + explosion via Brisingr and everything Monarch mentioned.

There's also other stuff Eragon can do, like mindhax or transmutation. Transmutation requires huge amounts of energy, but at this point, Eragon has hundreds of Eldunari, so energy isn't a problem.

 

[Tdtd1234]

If Nine lives isn't restricted Berserker can break Eragons barriers instead of waiting for him to run out of energy, and because of God hand he will survive long enough to use it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's completely counter intuitive and opposed by the whole explanation that the worth and weak point of Death Words is the incredibly small amount of energy they require, making them so efficient you could fell a whole Army but so weak against someone that can ward themselves that they wouldn't need to spend a lot of energy defending. Even the description in the profile entirely contradicts this.

So is there any difference between literally any word being used to cause death, or are Death Words small usages of energy to **** with the body internally like the profile would imply? By that logic every single spell that can cause damage is a Death Word.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Why don't we disregard the smaller stuff? Since Herc apparently isn't going down to the small injuries, Eragon notices and uses more destructive stuff. Brisingr is totally in-character and one of his go to moves.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I would like to at least know what other way he can use it. You aren;t gonna make him throw a fireball, then make him combust from the inside and tell me God Hand ain't gonna work because it's delivered a different way.

 

[Schnee_One]

also is this battle under the FATE System ?

because if yes, then Heracles would have a win con via using Nine Lives

SBA says New York so nah.

 

[Paul_Frank]

sbaverse is a neutral verse that lets both characters use their abilities to the fullest

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The normal assumption unless stated otherwise would be that we are using the Fate Stay Night Berserk unless the OP specifies. He's the better known one after all.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I would like to at least know what other way he can use it. You aren;t gonna make him throw a fireball, then make him combust from the inside and tell me God Hand ain't gonna work because it's delivered a different way.

That is exactly how it works though. Berserker adapts to the specific spell or weapon that killed him last, not the generalised ability of "fire manipulation". Just by saying brisingr with a different intention and meaning in mind, Eragon could throw a fireball, make Hercules spontaneously combust, directly light Hercules on fire, and pretty much any other application of "fire" he can think of, and each would qualify as a new spell to God Hamd, because brisingr isn't a spell, it's the true name of fire that can be used to cast as many spells as your imagination of "fire"'s applications allows.