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- #41
llits tub eY
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Twin Peaks Introduction Thread.
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
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- Tags
- twin peaks
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #42
┬▓pmuB
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''Dissatisfied noises''
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Let's stop this backwards talk pls
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #46
things are happening.
- 5,554
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It's happening again.
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This is the water
and this is the well
and this is the well
- 5,554
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Drink full and descend
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- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #52
I swear this thread is slower than a rabid turtle.
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I approve cuz I also am a supporter of TP and ultima knows
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First off... We. Need. This. Verse. It's David Lynch, so please make this verse.
On the second topic, I can see this as something very accurate respecting the blogs Ultima made.
There's no way I can contradict Ultima in this thread, I need to watch this series as I watched "Inland Empire" and "Eraserhead"... And loved both
On the second topic, I can see this as something very accurate respecting the blogs Ultima made.
There's no way I can contradict Ultima in this thread, I need to watch this series as I watched "Inland Empire" and "Eraserhead"... And loved both
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #55
Okay so, since several members here have already mostly agreed with my proposals, can I just go ahead and post the profiles?
Though, before that I could point out that, under our current standards at least, the Spirits of the Mauve Sea can be solid 1-A, or at the very least "likely" 1-A as opposed to possibly.
The whole concept of that place is that it is completely above the dream-universe in which the series takes place, and is a metaphysical realm of symbols and archetypes beyond both reality and dream. In fact, it is most certainly based on the Mauve Zone described by Kenneth Grant, who identified it as the external plane beyond the illusory reality, in which the Atman (The Self) resided, something which itself fits very well with the series' overall themes and inclinations towards both Occult and Vedic stuff.
Considering we gave God an 1-A rating for reasons similar to the ones I'm presenting here, I am pretty sure Twin Peaks' God-Tiers can be treated the same way.
Though, before that I could point out that, under our current standards at least, the Spirits of the Mauve Sea can be solid 1-A, or at the very least "likely" 1-A as opposed to possibly.
The whole concept of that place is that it is completely above the dream-universe in which the series takes place, and is a metaphysical realm of symbols and archetypes beyond both reality and dream. In fact, it is most certainly based on the Mauve Zone described by Kenneth Grant, who identified it as the external plane beyond the illusory reality, in which the Atman (The Self) resided, something which itself fits very well with the series' overall themes and inclinations towards both Occult and Vedic stuff.
Considering we gave God an 1-A rating for reasons similar to the ones I'm presenting here, I am pretty sure Twin Peaks' God-Tiers can be treated the same way.
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Do it Ultima, I give you permission.
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #58
yay
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Yeah it can prolly be posted now
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When The Arm gets a profile?
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #63
Soon.
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #64
Sort of a necro, but whatever.
So, initially, I just gave an "At least High 1-B" rating for the Spirits of the Lodges, since, while they indeed perceive the Universe as akin to a "story", this is because they lie outside of higher realities which function much like in verses such as The Dark Tower, where higher layers fully transcend the lower ones, but still function very much like normal Universes from their own perspective. Hence, I didn't really believe an 1-A rating would be appropriate for anyone who is not JUDY or The Fireman.
However, after reading some other portions of the books (mainly The Secret History of Twin Peaks), I believe there is a possibility that they can indeed be this high.
Firstly, we have to loop back on this statement in the Blog, made by Doctor Jacoby after he experiences an alternate plane of reality while among a tribe in South America, who gives him weird drugs and medicines for him to see said plane:
Here, the aforementioned plane is described as being perhaps "deeper" than the world inhabited by Humans. Something which is a bit too vague to warrant anything more than a higher degree of High 1-B. However, there is also this statement, made by the same guy towards the end of the book, where he briefly mentions the beliefs of the tribes which he interacted with:
As seen here, he states that the shamans he worked with to perceive the aforementioned "deeper" reality also state that the Universe which living beings collectively inhabit and perceive is nothing but an illusion, with the act of ritualistically using drugs and substances being what allows them to pierce the veil of reality and glimpse at what lies beyond.
Drugs themselves have already been widely implied to be a way of connecting to the Lodges from the physical world in the series. Mainly in Season 3, where we are shown several scenes of a drugged woma constantly shouting "one one nine" (as opposed to 911) at her son. When asked about that, Mark Frost even suggested that this is possibly because "the people who have one foot in the other world have a pronounced tendency to speak backwards." As seen in this interview, which is an obvious reference to how the entities of the Black and White Lodges naturally speak backwards.
Alongside the fact that the physical world and the Lodges are the main, and insofar only, dualistic realms which are shown in the series (with them always being referred to as "the two worlds"), this makes it pretty clear that the alternate plane which Jacoby experienced in his visions was indeed part of the Lodges, and most likely the Black Lodge itself, given how he describes several malevolent, cold entities taking an interesting in him during his acid trip. Just in case people want to start questioning the validity of his statements' relation to the Lodges.
Coupled with the already accepted idea that the Spirits of the Lodges transcend the Universe (which itself is considered the High 1-B construct when taking into account the highball of their ratings), as well as the numerous pieces of evidence showing that the Black Lodge exists in a realm of nonexistence (with the Dutchman's Lodge being straight up referred as being "nowhere"), I am pretty sure their high-end can be 1-A.
So, initially, I just gave an "At least High 1-B" rating for the Spirits of the Lodges, since, while they indeed perceive the Universe as akin to a "story", this is because they lie outside of higher realities which function much like in verses such as The Dark Tower, where higher layers fully transcend the lower ones, but still function very much like normal Universes from their own perspective. Hence, I didn't really believe an 1-A rating would be appropriate for anyone who is not JUDY or The Fireman.
However, after reading some other portions of the books (mainly The Secret History of Twin Peaks), I believe there is a possibility that they can indeed be this high.
Firstly, we have to loop back on this statement in the Blog, made by Doctor Jacoby after he experiences an alternate plane of reality while among a tribe in South America, who gives him weird drugs and medicines for him to see said plane:
When I opened my eyes, two things occured: I realized that I was no longer where I thought I had been, and at the same moment no longer knew who "I" was. My vision was both clouded and somehow enhanced, and at some level I registered that what I was "seeing" was not physically in front of me. I also knew that the "veil" of reality had been rent, split or torn away and that I was looking into a different and perhaps "deeper" dimension, one that either underlies ours or that coexists with it side by side, separated by the thinnest margin imaginable, one that our relatively primitive neurology prevents us from perceiving. As I "looked" deeper--an inadequate description for a kind of seeing that involved all my senses, although not necessarily on the physical level--I realized there were living beings before me in this field of energy. As they drew closer to me, I realized that they could "see" me as well that my presence had drawn their interest. This alarmed me slightly, as I could not discern their intent. They might have been angelic or demonic, or perhaps hybrid creatures, and there were many of them moving towards me, tall and humanoid. I realized that their interest in me felt cold, reptilian, neutral but shading towards malevolence, lacking all compassion |
A medicine man in Amazon would take them both at their word, believe the story at face vue and treat it accordingly. Possession. An entity. Why is that any less plausible or relevant than the safe, sanitized, pre-packaged bullshit of an armchair diagnosis made solely from the neck up? What is that but a shield hoisted to protect us from the unholy terror of glimpsing ourselves as we truly are: creatures of unknown origin, trapped in time, pinned to a hostile rock through indifferent and infinite space, clueless, inherently violent and condemned to death? There is more to Laura's story than the facts. More than meets the eye or ear. A third rail lurks here in the shadows that's deadly to the touch. There's only one way to find it. The shamans I've worked with know how to pierce the veil and see beyond the membrane of our poorly perceived and shared "reality." (They'd use the term "illusion.") They've shown me, I've experienced these things with them, I've seen through the veil, and traveled the world in pursuit of that knowledge. Dedicated my life to this search, personally and profesionally. |
Drugs themselves have already been widely implied to be a way of connecting to the Lodges from the physical world in the series. Mainly in Season 3, where we are shown several scenes of a drugged woma constantly shouting "one one nine" (as opposed to 911) at her son. When asked about that, Mark Frost even suggested that this is possibly because "the people who have one foot in the other world have a pronounced tendency to speak backwards." As seen in this interview, which is an obvious reference to how the entities of the Black and White Lodges naturally speak backwards.
Alongside the fact that the physical world and the Lodges are the main, and insofar only, dualistic realms which are shown in the series (with them always being referred to as "the two worlds"), this makes it pretty clear that the alternate plane which Jacoby experienced in his visions was indeed part of the Lodges, and most likely the Black Lodge itself, given how he describes several malevolent, cold entities taking an interesting in him during his acid trip. Just in case people want to start questioning the validity of his statements' relation to the Lodges.
Coupled with the already accepted idea that the Spirits of the Lodges transcend the Universe (which itself is considered the High 1-B construct when taking into account the highball of their ratings), as well as the numerous pieces of evidence showing that the Black Lodge exists in a realm of nonexistence (with the Dutchman's Lodge being straight up referred as being "nowhere"), I am pretty sure their high-end can be 1-A.
- 5,545
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- #66
I already addressed it in the post: I put them at "At least High 1-B" initially because, while the Higher Layer ("Odessa") they scale to does indeed transcend a High 1-B Universe and renders it as akin to fiction, it functions very much like normal universe from the perspective of the beings inhabiting it, aside from it being implied to be abstract to some degree and exist as a dream-world where things are just "off". So I thought it being a higher degree of High 1-B would suffice.
Meanwhile, that quote does indeed show that the Black Lodge, which is itself abstract and outside of space-time entirely, qualifies as "qualitatively above" infinite layers/dimensions, seeing as it is more real than the physical world, which is illusory compared to it.
Meanwhile, that quote does indeed show that the Black Lodge, which is itself abstract and outside of space-time entirely, qualifies as "qualitatively above" infinite layers/dimensions, seeing as it is more real than the physical world, which is illusory compared to it.
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- #68
That is also mostly because the stuff which exists below it had far less evidence for being 1-A, as opposed to being itself a higher level of High 1-B in comparision to the physical universe. This quote gives us pretty solid evidence that the Black Lodge actually sees High 1-B stuff as fictional/illusory from an abstract, metaphysical perspective, as opposed to seeing it as such from the perspective of higher worlds which are vaguely like normal Universes in functiolality.
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Well this isn't really evidence for the stuff below it being 1-A, just different evidence on the transcendence above the High 1-B stuff below it.
This quote gives us pretty solid evidence that the Black Lodge actually sees High 1-B stuff as fictional/illusory from an abstract, metaphysical perspective, as opposed to seeing it as such from the perspective of higher worlds whivh are vaguely like normal Universes in functiolality.
Didn't we already know that it was seeing High 1-B stuff from a fictional perspective?
So the new stuff that makes it 1-A is seeing High 1-B stuff as illusory, as well as seeing it in an abstract/metaphysical sort of way? Does that mean that the important part's the stuff about his senses not quite being physical? Since that's the only real metaphysical stuff in there that isn't just a higher world that functions like a normal universe.
If that illusory/abstract stuff is what flips the switch to 1-A, are those one/two quotes really more consistent than everything else showing the lodges as vaguely functioning like normal universes?
This quote gives us pretty solid evidence that the Black Lodge actually sees High 1-B stuff as fictional/illusory from an abstract, metaphysical perspective, as opposed to seeing it as such from the perspective of higher worlds whivh are vaguely like normal Universes in functiolality.
Didn't we already know that it was seeing High 1-B stuff from a fictional perspective?
So the new stuff that makes it 1-A is seeing High 1-B stuff as illusory, as well as seeing it in an abstract/metaphysical sort of way? Does that mean that the important part's the stuff about his senses not quite being physical? Since that's the only real metaphysical stuff in there that isn't just a higher world that functions like a normal universe.
If that illusory/abstract stuff is what flips the switch to 1-A, are those one/two quotes really more consistent than everything else showing the lodges as vaguely functioning like normal universes?
- 5,545
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- Thread starter
- #70
The Lodges don't function like normal Universes, they are pretty much abstract realms of nothingness which stand outside of space-time altogether and are transcendent over the physical universe, seeing it as an illusion. What functions like a normal universe is Odessa, a higher, artificial layer of reality from which the whole story of Twin Peaks is just fiction. The cosmology basically goes like this:
The Dream (The Universe < The Black Lodge < Odessa) < The "Real World" < The Dutchman's Lodge (The real form of the "Black Lodge" which lies outside of the dream)
The difference this quotes brings is that, the Lodge Spirits are currently rated at High 1-B as a highball for existing beyond both the Universe and the higher realities (Odessa and the Real World) from which it is seen as a story/dream (but which still function like regular worlds). With the quote, we have proof that they actually see the universe as fiction from the perspective of a higher "beyond-dimensional" reality, as opposed to just existing beyond worlds that act like normal universes but metaphysically transcend High 1-B stuff themselves (At least in the case of Odessa).
The Dream (The Universe < The Black Lodge < Odessa) < The "Real World" < The Dutchman's Lodge (The real form of the "Black Lodge" which lies outside of the dream)
The difference this quotes brings is that, the Lodge Spirits are currently rated at High 1-B as a highball for existing beyond both the Universe and the higher realities (Odessa and the Real World) from which it is seen as a story/dream (but which still function like regular worlds). With the quote, we have proof that they actually see the universe as fiction from the perspective of a higher "beyond-dimensional" reality, as opposed to just existing beyond worlds that act like normal universes but metaphysically transcend High 1-B stuff themselves (At least in the case of Odessa).
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After talking about it in Discord, I think it should have been 1-A before, so I'm obviously okay with it being 1-A with this new evidence.
EDIT: But with that said, I've called a lot of similar stuff 1-A before and had it shot down. I think this illusory stuff is basically identical to the past evidence, and that's the only part of it I'm capable of evaluating.
EDIT: But with that said, I've called a lot of similar stuff 1-A before and had it shot down. I think this illusory stuff is basically identical to the past evidence, and that's the only part of it I'm capable of evaluating.
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Well I just want to say that I don't think the Black Lodge can be considered 1-A, since the current definition of 1-A requires you to be above all spatio-temporal dimensions (I'm pretty sure at least, correct me if I'm wrong). And there is some form of time that passes in the Black Lodge.
But the Dutchmen's a little different, it didn't have the same time is convoluted/higher temporal dimension thing going for it, the same way the Red Room/Black Lodge does. So if it's considered that it transcends them, then yeah, the 1-A should be legit.
But the Dutchmen's a little different, it didn't have the same time is convoluted/higher temporal dimension thing going for it, the same way the Red Room/Black Lodge does. So if it's considered that it transcends them, then yeah, the 1-A should be legit.
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- #73
I feel like BOB reversing events in the Black Lodge can just be considered some bullshit Reality Warping hax, much like Masadaverse dudes who impose time over locations where it doesn't exist as a concept, since we know for a fact linear time and space don't really have any relevance in it anyways. Though, you make a good point nonetheless.
And yeah, it's implied Time straight up doesn't exist in the Dutchman's, as Major Briggs didn't even age while trapped in there for all those 25 years, and the Final Dossier even points out that it appeared to stand still there. The fact it's also described as being "nowhere" even in relation to the Infinite-D stuff should make it possible for 1-A at least.
And yeah, it's implied Time straight up doesn't exist in the Dutchman's, as Major Briggs didn't even age while trapped in there for all those 25 years, and the Final Dossier even points out that it appeared to stand still there. The fact it's also described as being "nowhere" even in relation to the Infinite-D stuff should make it possible for 1-A at least.
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Well I wasn't referring to that scene only, but in general. The biggest example of this is the coffee. Do you remember the scene? He spilled the coffee, than the coffee was back, then the coffee was "hardened", then it wasn't, etc, etc.
Although Briggs's not aging could be attributed to the time is convoluted, the Red Room in the same season was still acting that way while the Dutchman's wasn't so it mostly likely is as you say.
Although Briggs's not aging could be attributed to the time is convoluted, the Red Room in the same season was still acting that way while the Dutchman's wasn't so it mostly likely is as you say.
