Trigun - More abilities

[LordGinSama]

Eyup, while I'm waiting on some speed calcs to be made I'll be whipping up a CRT on the powers and Abilities of Knives and Vash.


* Sense Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement for Plants (Plants can remove all senses of living beings by contact.)

* Passive Paralysis Inducement for Knives

* Fate Manipulation and Type 3 Acausality, and type 8 immortality for Knives: (Midvalley felt as if his destiny were being controlled by the presence of Knives. Has stored an image of himself within every point in time, within every Plant and in every place. Plants also manipulate, create and collapse causality by merely existing so Knives having Fate Manipulation shouldn't be far off.)

* Information Manipulation for Knives (Knives can absorb knowledge and information from the opponent.)

* Infinite Stamina for Knives

* Supergenius intelligence for Knives (Knives is stated to have boundless knowledge.)

* Possible Higher Dimensional Existence for Knives (Stated to have entered a higher state of Dimensionality, Plants have accepted 4-D abilities here, so this shouldn't be too far fetched given they already interact with 4-D shit.)

* Existence Erasure and Regeneration Negation for Vash. (Stated more than several times to have erased humans, and Knives thought if Vash's Black-Hole bullets hit him directly he'd die.)

* Supernatural Willpower for Vash

* Power Nullification and Bestowal for Plants.

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree with most things but:

Any scans for Acausality 3? Also, that scan for fate hax is so direct it's strange, couldn't the page before that one and/or the one after give a bit more info?

That higher dimensional existence would apply to all his keys?

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with most things but:

Any scans for Acausality 3?

It's in the same scan as the Fate Manipulation scan.

Also, that scan for fate hax is so direct it's strange, couldn't the page before that one and/or the one after give a bit more info?

Here

That higher dimensional existence would apply to all his keys?

No, this just applies to Ark Knives. His base form is 3-D with 4-D hax.

 

[XDragnoir]

I guess i agree with everything then.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with everything.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump (sue me.)

 

[azontr]

(sue me.)

I just might.

Btw I agree with everything, although I'm sorta iffy on Nigh-Omniscience. To be fair though, idk what is and isn't sufficient evidence for nigh-omniscience/omniscience so take this with a grain of salt and say I agree with everything.

 

[Megaraptor149]

Agreed for everything.

Maybe must include Absorption too, beside information Manipulation because he can Absorp information

 

[Planck69]

Agree with most of them but;

A statement of boundless knowledge isn't enough to gain Nigh-Omniscience as far as I'm aware. Are there any more scans to provide elaboration?

 

[LordGinSama]

Agree with most of them but;

A statement of boundless knowledge isn't enough to gain Nigh-Omniscience as far as I'm aware. Are there any more scans to provide elaboration?

Aside from that single statement, no other statements like that are made. Although his next best feat was outsmarting the humans of his verse, after they spent more than 8+ months preparing to deal with him. Humans at this point have colonized the galaxy, are capable of FTL - MTFL travel, High 6-A weapons, can create the most intense temperature reality has ever seen, communicate from light years away, etc.


Not sure what that qualifies as but Knives outsmarted them every attempt they made literally instantly. That also included outsmarting 2 other Independent Plants who are vastly smarter than the Humans of the verse.

 

[azontr]

Aside from that single statement, no other statements like that are made. Although his next best feat was outsmarting the humans of his verse, after they spent more than 8+ months preparing to deal with him. Humans at this point have colonized the galaxy, are capable of FTL - MTFL travel, High 6-A weapons, can create the most intense temperature reality has ever seen, communicate from light years away, etc.


Not sure what that qualifies as but Knives outsmarted them every attempt they made literally instantly. That also included outsmarting 2 other Independent Plants who are vastly smarter than the Humans of the verse.

Sorta seems like he qualifies as Supergenius instead of Nigh-Omniscient. That's just me, though.

 

[Galaxi789]

I do not think I mention that you use for an existence superior dimension enough that of unlimited knowledge does not seem to be even close omnicience it seems only a way to say that it has a great knowledge but without feats close omnicience I do not think it should be accepted

 

[LordGinSama]

I do not think I mention that you use for an existence superior dimension enough that of unlimited knowledge does not seem to be even close omnicience it seems only a way to say that it has a great knowledge but without feats close omnicience I do not think it should be accepted

Gonna have to ask you to restructure that sentence a bit so I can actually understand what your trying to say, with all due respect this is incoherent.

 

[LordGinSama]

Sorta seems like he qualifies as Supergenius instead of Nigh-Omniscient. That's just me, though.

Actually yeah I agree with this, Supergenius is almost verbatim what Knives is capable of.

 

[Planck69]

Aside from that single statement, no other statements like that are made. Although his next best feat was outsmarting the humans of his verse, after they spent more than 8+ months preparing to deal with him. Humans at this point have colonized the galaxy, are capable of FTL - MTFL travel, High 6-A weapons, can create the most intense temperature reality has ever seen, communicate from light years away, etc.


Not sure what that qualifies as but Knives outsmarted them every attempt they made literally instantly. That also included outsmarting 2 other Independent Plants who are vastly smarter than the Humans of the verse.

Seems Supergenius as others have said.

 

[LordGinSama]

OP has been adjusted!

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Fate Manipulation is very plausible considering Plants manipulate causality by mere existence, so no problems there...maybe a "likely"?

I don't think nigh omniscience is applicable, the knowledge only extends to combat/war afaik. Just Extraordinary Genius in field of tactics/strategy should be enough.

Also whats with infinite stamina scan??....he says he can't continue using his unlimited energy.

Everything else is fine.

 

[azontr]

Fate Manipulation is very plausible considering Plants manipulate causality by mere existence, so no problems there...maybe a "likely"?

I don't think nigh omniscience is applicable, the knowledge only extends to combat/war afaik. Just Extraordinary Genius in field of tactics/strategy should be enough.

Also whats with infinite stamina scan??....he says he can't continue using his unlimited energy.

Everything else is fine.

I think we've decided on a Supergenius rating for Knives' intelligence.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Supergenius it is then.

 

[LordGinSama]

The Infinite Stamina part is weird, Plants essentially have a massive amount of energy they can use, given that they can power massive cities for dozens of years on end. The process is much slower when using it just for themselves which is why Plants can live forever without eating or sleeping.


But when a single Plants spams their abilities they spend a lot of said energy. That said, Knives discovered after spamming his abilities in base that his power was slowly sapping away his energy, which is why he made the Ark. Which is a conglomerate of thousands of Plants, which he fuses into himself to draw energy from. It's basically like how the Philosopher Stone works in Fullmetal Alchemist. They have unlimited energy so long as they have "stock"

 

[LordGinSama]

Gilver also brought up a solid point about Fate Manipulation and so I updated the OP for a solid listing rather than a possibly.


Also another thing I forgot, Independent Plants should have Low-Godly as a whole and not just with "sufficient energy." since Knives performed his Low-Godly without the Ark while in a dying state with no energy left. If anything it would be "Low-Godly, much higher with sufficient energy."


Also if Knives could do this while dead and zero energy, would that perhaps give Ark Knives Mid-Godly or just the "far higher." since he has thousands of Plants fused into him and has transcended his previous form which has Low-Godly?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ahhh.. I see. So being incapable of using said energy for combat without burning out, it passively just increases sustenance and longevity for stamina. Thats fine then.

Full rating for Fate manip is also fine.

Low Godly without limitation of energy reserve is good too.

 

[LordGinSama]

Would you agree with Mid-Godly for the Ark or what?

Since Plant regeneration is a lot higher when using sufficient energy, and the Ark is that but with thousands of Plants fused into him. Increasing his "Gate" to a higher plane, Gates basically being what Plants draw their power from including regeneration.

 

[azontr]

Would you agree with Mid-Godly for the Ark or what?

Since Plant regeneration is a lot higher when using sufficient energy, and the Ark is that but with thousands of Plants fused into him. Increasing his "Gate" to a higher plane, Gates basically being what Plants draw their power from including regeneration.

Can I get some scans for the gates shit? As somebody who knows jackshit about Trigun, it'd be helpful.

 

[LordGinSama]

Can I get some scans for the gates shit? As somebody who knows jackshit about Trigun, it'd be helpful.

Absolutely. Gates are basically the source of the Plants "power." and "Flow.", both of which fuel the Plants abilities including regeneration.

With a bigger Gate, the abilities of Plants are enhanced, which is why Knives gains random new abilities with the more Plants he absorbs to increase and enhance his "Gate."

Here's also what Nightow said about Plants and their mechanics from his old Blog site which has been long since deleted. Fortunately me and another user here managed to save a few statements.

『門(ゲート)』と呼ばれるプラントの力の原理は、『因果律操作による万物の生産』というもの。

Which translates to

"The principle of power of a plant called "gate" is "production of all things by causal operation"


So a 3-D Gate is capable of Low-Godly without any energy left, so wouldn't a 4-D Gate be Mid-Godly?

 

[Planck69]

I'm not sure we scale regeneration that way. Best to just have it be "At least Low-Godly" with elaboration as to the specifics shown in verse.

 

[azontr]

Gotta agree with @Planck69 on this one, "At Least Low-Godly" seems best. Thanks for the scans, btw. Helped me understand a lot better.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah I'd agree with that. Although I'm not sure how to add it into the profile without it sounding, well confusing.

So basically it's 4-D regeneration for Ark Knives and 4-D regeneration Negation for Vash since he could have killed Ark Knives with his embued bullets.

 

[Planck69]

Um, regeneration doesn't really depend on dimensionality as far as potency goes. Like, 1-A EE wouldn't really neg Mid-Godly for example so I'm not sure if mentioning the dimensionality would change things.

 

[LordGinSama]

Hm I see. I'll see what DontTalk thinks since this does admittedly make me confused.

 

[azontr]

How does 4-D regen neg even translate? I assume it's like if the opponent has a 3-D resistance to regen neg, then Vash could just go lolnope as long as the regen isn't to high? Idk.

 

[LordGinSama]

How does 4-D regen neg even translate? I assume it's like if the opponent has a 3-D resistance to regen neg, then Vash could just go lolnope as long as the regen isn't to high? Idk.

Basically yeah. From what I'm understanding it'd be the same for Knives's regeneration, since it comes from a 4-D source it would require a 4-D Negation since you'd need to nullify the source of the regeneration which is 4-D.

 

[azontr]

Ah. Idk if that's how that works for Knives' regen, then.

 

[Planck69]

Regeneration negation doesn't translate well to dimensional or qualitative differences at all. It's pretty much just layers of resistance.

Basically yeah. From what I'm understanding it'd be the same for Knives's regeneration, since it comes from a 4-D source it would require a 4-D Negation since you'd need to nullify the source of the regeneration which is 4-D.

I guess this would be harder to deal with than regular regeneration.

 

[LordGinSama]

So then I'd word it something like this. Knives has 3 keys.

So his Base form would look like this "At Least Low Godly" (Restored his body with zero energy left while in a dying state.)

Plant Absorbed Knives "At Least Low-Godly, likely higher." (Has superior Regeneration than before due to obtaining a larger Gate.)

Ark Knives "At Least Low-Godly, far higher with the Ark." (Has absorbed the Ark, a conglomerate of Thousands of Plants, giving him an infinitely larger Gate than before.)


I'll obviously explain what Gates are in the profiles ofc.

 

[azontr]

This seems fine to me.

 

[SamanPatou]

* Sense Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement for Plants (Plants can remove all senses of living beings by contact.)

SEI seems a bit redundant imho, at least because I tend to not consider the power outside of verses where status effects exist an effective thing, but I wouldn't mind it being added.
Sense Manip is good, at least first, you need to provide scans showing that Plants caused the character's senses to be removed.

* Passive Paralysis Inducement for Knives

I'm not sure about this, seems more like intimidation, which falls under Social Influencing

* Fate Manipulation and Type 3 Acausality, and type 8 immortality for Knives: (Midvalley felt as if his destiny were being controlled by the presence of Knives. Has stored an image of himself within every point in time, within every Plant and in every place. Plants also manipulate, create and collapse causality by merely existing so Knives having Fate Manipulation shouldn't be far off.)

I need more context for this, specifically about the following points:

• Doesn't in every time mean it just stored its image overtime?
• Do we have proof other versions of it can survive its death and act in its place?
• Couldn't intertwining his fate be only flowery language to express how he interacted with both humans and Plants for his own ends?
• Can he regenerate himself or keep on living because of his image stored in other Plants?
• Midvalley's statement feels more like him saying he is powerless against Knives, who's figuratively controlling his destiny.
• Can you show me something about the bolded part?

Info Manip is good but should be labelled as Information Absorption linking both pages
Infinite stamina is good but should be showed through more scans, or at least not a cropped one
Boundless Knowledge doesn't seem to be a literal statement, more like a hyperbole to say how clever and cunning he is, but I don't know how to rate his intelligence just through that alone.

* Possible Higher Dimensional Existence for Knives (Stated to have entered a higher state of Dimensionality, Plants have accepted 4-D abilities here, so this shouldn't be too far fetched given they already interact with 4-D shit.)

Do we have reasons to believe that woman is referring to a higher dimension, and not just a different state of existence?

* Existence Erasure and Regeneration Negation for Vash. (Stated more than several times to have erased humans, and Knives thought if Vash's Black-Hole bullets hit him directly he'd die.)

EE is good, but I'm unsure about Regen Negation. Wouldn't he just die becausue of EE? It usually bypasses all levels of physical regeneration.

* Supernatural Willpower for Vash

I don't see this being Supernatural, people living a horrible life were all they friends and loved ones die around them, alongside a pletora of other bad things, is extremely common in real life, (and in fiction too) and some still find a way to push forward.

https://ibb.co/0fYg0Hd

Power Nullification and Bestowal for Plants.

I need more details about that power that gives off and takes away.

 

[Popted2]

agree with everything

 

[LordGinSama]

SEI seems a bit redundant imho, at least because I tend to not consider the power outside of verses where status effects exist an effective thing, but I wouldn't mind it being added.
Sense Manip is good, at least first, you need to provide scans showing that Plants caused the character's senses to be removed.

Sure thing. It's just a direct effect that Plants have after contact.

I'm not sure about this, seems more like intimidation, which falls under Social Influencing

How would that be either one? The guy couldn't move, there's the term "frozen in fear." yes but that's not what happens when scared. When scared your body shakes as a defense Mechanisms, you don't lock.

I need more context for this, specifically about the following points:

• Doesn't in every time mean it just stored its image overtime?

No, that's like literally speaking. One of the reasons why he was so damn hard to actually "kill." (Which they couldn't do either, Vash had to counter to ability with anti fusion and the range he has. Vash was the "key." in the defeat of Knive's. This obviously wasn't meant as in "the only one strong enough.' because while he's relative, he's still vastly weaker than Ark Knives. Vash is the key because he counters basically everything Knives can do.)

• Do we have proof other versions of it can survive its death and act in its place?

Not directly since Vash was able to unfuse Knives from the Ark, Vash being the same person with Universal+ Space-Time Manipulation and power Nullification that extends to that range as well. The power of a Plant extends and reaches to the entire time axis.

Basically Vash was the walking counter to what Knives was.

• Couldn't intertwining his fate be only flowery language to express how he interacted with both humans and Plants for his own ends?

Most likely not, the statements are made several times and Midvalley isn't the type to make hyperbolic statements especially given his expertise in sensory. Non - Independent Plants which are the weakest Plants also Manipulation, create and collapse abstractions like causality by merely existing, so them Manipulating Fate isn't exactly far fetched.

Plus Knives isn't the type to really manipulate, he's a lot more direct and had little contact with humans before his attack.

• Can he regenerate himself or keep on living because of his image stored in other Plants?

Both, it's his regeneration from himself, plus the thousands of images of himself that he's stored into the Plants. Basically the issue in dealing with him was that his regeneration was stupid, and the fact that he installed his image / will into Thousands of other Plants, and in turn the time Axis which made him so hard to deal with.

Only Vash with his range and anti fusion was able to put a stop to him.

• Midvalley's statement feels more like him saying he is powerless against Knives, who's figuratively controlling his destiny.

Like I said above, the chances of this being a figurative statement is very much unlikely given the circumstances.

• Can you show me something about the bolded part?

Sure. Refer to here or better yet I'll just drop the accepted statement.


プラントはプランク的な不確定性を統制しエネルギー、物質、次元の操作など可能だが更には因果律の崩壊や創造が可能で全ての時間軸を含めた多元的宇宙、更に高位の次元にまで及ぶ。プラントの大元と呼べるものが多元的宇宙を遥かに上の高次元そのものであり、全ての始まりそのもの。


Which translates into "The plant can control plank-like uncertainty and manipulate energy, materials, and dimensions, but it can also collapse and create causality, extending to the multiverse including all time axes, and even higher dimensions.. What can be called the origin of the plant is the higher dimension itself far above the multiverse, and the beginning of everything itself.."


So normal Plants have already shown causality fuckery, and time axis fuckery so Type 3 and Fate Manipulation should be solid imo.

Info Manip is good but should be labelled as Information Absorption

This works.

linking both pages
Infinite stamina is good but should be showed through more scans, or at least not a cropped one.

The cropped one is really the only part of relevancy within that page, I don't really see a reason to include the entire page whenever 99% of it is meaningless. Anyway, that scan is pretty direct but if that's not enough for you Plants are currently accepted as having all types of self sustenance, they don't need to eat, sleep, or anything of the sort even when empowering massive cities for hundreds of years on end.

Boundless Knowledge doesn't seem to be a literal statement, more like a hyperbole to say how clever and cunning he is, but I don't know how to rate his intelligence just through that alone.

Yeah we've agreed on Supergenius instead.

Do we have reasons to believe that woman is referring to a higher dimension, and not just a different state of existence?

That's the Crimson Nail, basically Knives's right hand. Trigun's a verse that delves into higher D stuff quite often, ranging from this statement in the manga to the 2 other Higher D statements from WoG (The latter is accepted as 4-D hax here so her referring to a higher dimension is more consistent than her referring to a different state of existence.)

EE is good, but I'm unsure about Regen Negation. Wouldn't he just die becausue of EE? It usually bypasses all levels of physical regeneration.

Knives's has Low-Godly which covers most forms of EE. Vash's case is matter / physical EE, which Knives's can regenerate from so it's more akin to Negation than just EE since Knives's can regenerate from that level of damage.

I don't see this being Supernatural, people living a horrible life were all they friends and loved ones die around them, alongside a pletora of other bad things, is extremely common in real life, (and in fiction too) and some still find a way to push forward.

This is completely different, getting tortured physically and mentally for the majority of 150+, getting hunted, betrayed and watching loved ones / friend's get executed just because of the connection they have with you is definitely far from norm.

Vash has seen and dealt with the ugliest side of humanity for 150+, and despite all that he still manages to push on without a second of hesitation. Same guy who can go through 8 months of torture and go through serious injury with his will alone.

https://ibb.co/0fYg0Hd

I need more details about that power that gives off and takes away.

What do you mean? Basically Plants have the ability to "negate." abilities and also "give." abilities. Vash tends to capitalize on the former, Knives abuses the latter to gain new and random ass abilities such as out of the blue Void Manipulation, Mind hax, Deconstruction, fusion, etc.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump