Trigun Low 1-C Problems

[Robo432343]

Trigun is in a really bad state right now in terms of the tier 1 ratings (and other stuff) because of these reasons:

Very simple downgrade having to do with the references on the Plant Physiology page.

Most of the page is very well cited, using sources from both the original manga and Trigun Maximum, as well as the Lost Plant extra chapter. But all of the higher dimensional related stuff uses this screenshot. Which comes from THIS forum thread. The only reference for it is "Nightow's Blog Statement" which is NOWHERE to be seen on the CRT that upgraded the Plants to 5-D.

Unless there is an actual link for the scans on Nightow's official website that can be linked on the page itself (whether by the Wayback Machine or some other webpage parser), 5-D Higher Dimensional Manipulation needs to be removed from the Plant Physiology page.

No one can find the sources for tier 1 Trigun. We thought we found the tier 1 stuff in the thread i linked but it turns out it wasn't actually the right one. @LordGinSama said he was going to handle it but he's not active anymore.

Update: I found a source that talks about the tier 1 stuff in that same thread and if you translate it, you'll get similar results to the one linked in the plant physiology page.

用語メカニックとは何？ わかりやすく解説 Weblio辞書

用語メカニックとは?ウィキペディア小見出し辞書。 出典: フリー百科事典『ウィキペディア（Wikipedia）』 (2022/08/06 06:50 UTC 版)「トライガン」の記事における「用語・メカニック」の解説プラント プログラミングによりあら...

www.weblio.jp

Plants can control Planckian uncertainty and manipulate energy , matter , and dimensions , but they can also disrupt and create causality , extending to the multiverse , including all timelines , and even higher dimensions . The origin of the plant is a higher dimension far above the multiverse, the very beginning of everything

If the statement doesn't qualify for Low 1-C anyway then i guess it can just be removed.

EDIT: Turns out the WoG statement never really existed. We might have to remove the current Low 1-C ratings

 

[Deceived3596]

To me, the statement reads like a 5-D or above statement. But I'm not knowledgeable enough on our standards to say if this satisfies them or not. Regardless, good job on finding a source for the quote

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I dont think this constitutes a valid tier 1 statement anyways. Seems to be referring to higher dimension as in a sort of place or realm above the multiverse rather than higher axis.

 

[Deonment]

Trigun is in a really bad state right now in terms of the tier 1 ratings (and other stuff) because of these reasons:

No one can find the sources for tier 1 Trigun. We thought we found the tier 1 stuff in the thread i linked but it turns out it wasn't actually the right one. @LordGinSama said he was going to handle it but he's not active anymore.

But i actually found a source that talks about the tier 1 stuff in that same thread and if you translate it, you'll get similar results to the one linked in the plant physiology page.

用語メカニックとは何？ わかりやすく解説 Weblio辞書

用語メカニックとは?ウィキペディア小見出し辞書。 出典: フリー百科事典『ウィキペディア（Wikipedia）』 (2022/08/06 06:50 UTC 版)「トライガン」の記事における「用語・メカニック」の解説プラント プログラミングによりあら...

www.weblio.jp

If the statement doesn't qualify for Low 1-C anyway then i guess it can just be removed.

I mean, this is the exact same statement (ctrl+f'ing the page using the original untl'd statement on an un'tld version of the page gets you the exact same quote, and said page was also linked by Deagon on the original thread), and the standards haven't changed, so if it's valid it's valid
The issues then come with whether or not this, in of itself, is a valid source
As if we check where this quote is coming from in of itself
The page says and shows directly at the top that it is coming from the Japanese Wikipedia Page for Trigun, and in fact the exact string of text can be seen here
The citations that the page quotes to make this conclusion (which honestly seems more like a theory from my reading of them, though I lack the context of actually having read the full manga and related spinoffs) are two things, 1

Multiple Bullets、BBS、まんがの森

Which seems to be referring to Trigun Multiple Bullets, and specifically seems to be a reference for the plant's ability to control uncertainty
The other "citation" is a note, which seems to be covering everything outside of the above, and reads

BBS、まんがの森。最終盤におけるヴァッシュやナイブズは大元の存在と同等の力を持ち全能とされるが、性格上から全てを「台無し」にする程のことはしないという。

which when tl'd with google translate comes out to

BBS, Manga no Mori. At the end of the story, Vash and Knives are said to have the same power as the original being and are omnipotent, but due to their personalities, they would not do anything to "ruin" everything.

Which seems to suggest there is no actual WoG at play, just deductions from things within the works themselves, though if what BBS or Manga no Mori are change anything, then yeah, sure why not, but as it currently stands, its more a reading of the material than a statement from on high

If there is actual WoG about this then sure, I would be fine, but as it stands, eh, Trigun would supposedly keep it's Low 1-C off Knives being or becoming Higher Dimensional, but idk the source material, so
shrug

 

[Robo432343]

Well if that statement doesn't actually come from Nightow then we can't use it. This is not good

The verse cannot be Low 1-C off Knives. The reason why he has such a high rating in the first place is because of that statement. Knives is 4-D at best now

 

[Deonment]

The verse cannot be Low 1-C off Knives. The reason why he has such a high rating in the first place is because of that statement. It's 4-D at best now

I mean, no, Knives was considered 6D to the previous 5D, since he had "ascended" to a higher dimension due to fusing with other plants (who already have their own 4D scale stuff), so Low 1-C can in theory stay for him and Vash but I'm unsure how valid that is, esp considering it seems like most of the imgur scans on the Plant Physiology page have died

 

[Robo432343]

I mean, no, Knives was considered 6D to the previous 5D, since he had "ascended" to a higher dimension due to fusing with other plants (who already have their own 4D scale stuff), so Low 1-C can in theory stay for him and Vash but I'm unsure how valid that is, esp considering it seems like most of the imgur scans on the Plant Physiology page have died

the sad thing is the 4D stuff comes from the exact same nightow statement which doesn't really exist

Bump. Also might as well bring it up here but shouldn't Plants in general have 4-D hax? The mangaka had a blog awhile ago, it got deleted some years ago but I was fortunate enough to save an interesting statement.

プラントはプランク的な不確定性を統制しエネルギー、物質、次元の操作など可能だが更には因果律の崩壊や創造が可能で全ての時間軸を含めた多元的宇宙、更に高位の次元にまで及ぶ。プラントの大元と呼べるものが多元的宇宙を遥かに上の高次元そのものであり、全ての始まりそのもの。


Which translates into "The plant can control plank-like uncertainty and manipulate energy, materials, and dimensions, but it can also collapse and create causality, extending to the multiverse including all time axes, and even higher dimensions.. What can be called the origin of the plant is the higher dimension itself far above the multiverse, and the beginning of everything itself.."


In this single state we have several mentions of Plants having 4-D abilities, and is also supported by Plants manipulating space-Time, dimensions and one even created another universe while being born. Seems pretty self evident imo.

 

[Deonment]

the sad thing is the 4D stuff comes from the exact same nightow statement which doesn't really exist

I will bring up Gin directly saying in the same post that "normal" plants already have feats on a similarly 4D scale (and that's why I checked the plant physiology page, which does have claims that would back up such a precedent, but the scans they link to are dead), but shrug

 

[Robo432343]

man...i don't even know anymore atp
i'll just see what the staff has to say

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, remove it, an out of nowhere higher dimension can't even grant tier 1, at best if we take it at face value it will be 5D but unknown in size thus untierable. Let alone it didn't even exist

Higher existence is even more vague

 

[Robo432343]

Okay
well the good thing is that there are accepted calcs for the verse that we can use

Trigun: Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Pegasus124467]

I think it might exist but it's somewhere out there

The manipulation of planck uncertainty is directly referenced in Trigun: Lost Plant when that one mom plant or something mentions it.

If that statement is true, then it's likely the others are too. When I found the Wikipedia article citation for the rest of the statement, it did say Vash and Knives had omnipotence and similar power to the "original being" at the end of the manga

So maybe this original being is the one who scales to 5-D, and we might have to search around the end of the manga or even article descriptions of plants in Trigun to see if they bring it up or something.

I have no clue what Manga no Mori is tho, and I'm still searching for BBS's reference

Will edit this in case I find I made a mistake about what I just said

I'm not really too much of a expert on VSBattles as I'm still getting adjusted here (but I have read multiple forum threads so I kinda know what to do) but I'll try and see if there is something

Update: not really a mistake but it does mention in the source you provided that "Vash and Knives could collapse the multiverse and higher dimensions by concentrating the power of the PLANT" when I used the search tool for "higher dimensions" after translating the page, maybe we can try and find where that comes from?


Update 2: Try translating this and go down to the terminology section

It brings up that Manga no Mori is a twitter account that's been deleted or something

It even cites a immeasurable feat for the Angel Arms (stating that since it's a plant's power, the time axis is irrelevant in regards to speed) so if we ever do prove it true Trigun is gonna get a speed upgrade dang

 

[Robo432343]

I really don't think we should use this deleted Manga no Mori thing if we don't have much information on what it is. We also don't know if it has any connection with Nightow.

 

[Pegasus124467]

Maybe we can find it through the wayback machine but I'll have to see

 

[Deceived3596]

I received correspondence from Gin--I am here to relay that message to everyone here.

Firstly, the statement that is used to validate 5-D Plants did in fact exist, and Gin received a link from another user, Fabastic glasses, to the original source where the statement is made. However, since it's been a while since the site was deactivated, it's near-impossible to locate. It would require the use of an archiving service like the Wayback Machine to find. And even if you did find it, there is no guarantee it was fully archived--basically making it untraceable.

Secondly, the Japanese website linked by Robo isn't the original source either. It's a website that categorizes information about Trigun, but it's not the website established by Nightow himself--it's a site created and maintained by fans of the series.

Thirdly, since neither the scan we currently use is traceable, and the second source isn't the original source, Gin is completely fine with removing the 5-D scaling until the description can be justified by the original source.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

RIP 5D Trigun I'll miss you

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[Kaiser0079]

Collapsing causality doesn't strike me as an AP feat anyway

 

[Pegasus124467]

the statement that is used to validate 5-D Plants did in fact exist, and Gin received a link from another user, Fabastic glasses, to the original source where the statement is made.

SO it does exist


Welp 5D Trigun is now gone until I find something

Well time to waste multiple hours of my life away trying to find this...

 

[Robo432343]

Yeah, remove it, an out of nowhere higher dimension can't even grant tier 1, at best if we take it at face value it will be 5D but unknown in size thus untierable. Let alone it didn't even exist

Higher existence is even more vague

hi can you ping some staff members?

 

[Vietthai96]

hi can you ping some staff members?

@DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04 @Godernet

 

[Reiner04]

Yeah remove it.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Off topic but I don't see any calcs linked, and there is nothing to support 7-C or 7-B

 

[Vietthai96]

Tier 1 thread need admin approval so i will ping some admins to finish the thread

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Firestorm808

Sorry for the ping but this thread is 99% finish so i think you guys can help with this

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, axe the rating.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yes, the tier removal is appropriate

 

[Firestorm808]

Yup. Remove it.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Seems necessary to remove it.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

If the statements don't have a valid source, removing it is the best.