Transmutation as an application of matter/energy manipulation

[DaFritzi]

In theory having a high enough degree of matter/energy manipulation should enable the user to perform transmutation. This is because transmutation can essentially be achieved by taking apart molecules/atoms and putting them together in a new way. So manipulating matter or energy seems like a plausible way of achieving transmutation.

Similar things would apply to spatial manipulation and reality warping (should the degree be high enough) as well.

So every character adept enough in any of those 4 manipulations should be able to perform transmutation as well as resist it.

If people agree with me, I suggest adding a note about this to those 4 manips and to transmutation.

 

[A6colute]

Agree.

 

[DaFritzi]

Can you do the editing I don't know if I can edit those pages? Or do we need more opinions on this topic?

 

[A6colute]

Write text in this thread. I will add it to the page.

 

[DaFritzi]

Thanks, I'll do it as soon as possible.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with the title and nothing else.

 

[DaFritzi]

What do you think? (pls correct the commata, if I made mistakes xD)

For the transmutation page

Since transmutation can essentially be achieved by taking apart molecules/atoms and putting them together in a new way, a high enough degree of matter manipulation and/or energy manipulation enables the user to perform as well as resist transmutation. Since this restructuring of matter can also be achieved by manipulating space or warping reality the same applies for users of said abilities given the degree is high enough.

For the 4 manips pages (matter, energy, space, reality warping)

A high enough degree of this power enables the user to restructure matter and thus perform and resist transmutation.

 

[The_Everlasting]

We strictly treat Transmutation as the ability to turn one form of matter into something else. I.E. the classic lead into gold.

It is not freely manipulating atomic structure to change the object's atomic makeup to make it something else.

I disagree with this.

 

[DaFritzi]

We strictly treat Transmutation as the ability to turn one form of matter into something else.

Which is exactly what can be achieved by the use of the 4 manips as I explained. I don't know why that should be wrong.

That's like saying a character with high level matter/energy manip and high level reality warping has no way to counter someone trying to transmute his body.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with The Everlasting. It is probably better to simply list several of the abilities in character pages in cases of overlap.

 

[DaFritzi]

I suggested this because I thought editing all characters with a high enough degree in any of these 4 manips to perform transmutation would be much more work.

Also lots of verses don't show transmutation itself, but a very high degree of said manips which would technically enable them to perform transmutation.

How about regarding it as a feat similar to transmutation?

A high enough degree of this power enables the user to restructure matter and thus perform feats similar to transmutation as well as resist transmutation.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that these abilities are not treated as synonymous for nearly all characters, so I prefer to keep them separate.

At least unless some experienced staff member has better suggestions for how we should word the text.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Everlasting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Everlasting as well.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I agree with Everlasting. It should be noted that transmutation can be thought of as a specific, limited type of matter manipulation. To help understand the matter, think of it thusly: ice manipulation is a specific, limited type of elemental manipulation, yet having or demonstrating ice manipulation does not mean one possesses control over other elements or even control over water or even absolute control over ice. These subjects are usually to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

EDIT: Actually, a much better example is this: concept manipulaton is an extention of reality manipulation, but having reality manipulation does not necessarily equate to having concept manipulation or anything else the reality warper wants. That is why Yukari is so dangerous; she is stated as having an unusually limited type of reality manipulation, "boundary manipulation," but she has many feats of using it to do amazing things. Or at least, we hear characters and obscure guidebooks blab about it instead of actually showing it onscreen, but you get the idea.

 

[DaFritzi]

We strictly treat Transmutation as the ability to turn one form of matter into something else. I.E. the classic lead into gold.
It is not freely manipulating atomic structure to change the object's atomic makeup to make it something else.

I just now realised, I think there is a misunderstating here.

I never said anything about a character with transmutation being able of manipulating matter or similar. What I said was that a character with a high degree of matter manipulation (solid control of molecular level and beyond to be precise) can achieve feats indistinguishable from transmutation.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@DaFritzi

No problem; it's a heady topic, and you're asking honest questions. However, my second example should resolve the matter.

 

[DaFritzi]

I understand that concept manip does not mean that you can warp reality (besides as a result of conceptual changes), also i understand that being able to warp reality means that you can influence the concepts.

However transmutation and matter manipulation are nothing so abstract. I know that transmutation, the way it is described now, is seen as changing one material into another one ignoring the physical reactions behind it.

But exactly via manipulating those physics it is, that feats can be performed which have the exact same result as transmutation.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Well, think of it this way: certain ice manipulators can also manipulate water, while other ice manipulators can only manipulate ice. Conventional wisdom states that they should be equal in this regard, but this is not always the case. Does this make sense? Besides, anyone facing a matter manipulator usually has worse things to worry about than transmutation, anyway.

 

[DaFritzi]

Taking your example.

We would have a person with full control over water (including its phase).

This person would of course also be able to manipulate ice as well.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

But some water manipulators just can't control ice. We must operate the addition of abilities to character profiles based on what we see a character do, not what we think would make sense to us. It's a matter (pun!) to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

 

[DaFritzi]

I don't want anything added to characters pages (I never did), just a small note on some powers pages in form of "possible use". Of course we can't revise the entire wiki in that fashion, that would take ages and be prone to NLF.

The matter manip and reality warping page for example already have such a note. The spatial manip page and energy manip page lack it, also the transmutation page lacks the note that transmutation can also be achieved via a high enough degree of said manips.

@A6colute you agreed with me in the beginning what's your opinion now?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Ohhh, I see, then. Yes, transmutation is a specific extention of matter manipulation, even if having one doesn't really connote the other.

 

[DaFritzi]

So you agree with adding: "possible use: transmutation, restructuring of matter" to the energy and spatial manip page, as well as adding: "can also be achieved via a high enough degree of energy/matter/spatial manip and/or reality warping" to the transmutation page?

I can explain why I want energy and spatial manip as well If you want me to.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

No, only to the matter manipulation page. I am of the opinion that "energy manipulation" is too broad a term to merit mentions of such specific applications on its official page. However, this discussion could merit a few more opinions.

 

[DaFritzi]

Indeed, more opinions would be nice now that this misunderstanding is cleared.

Yes, transmutation via energy/spatial manipulation would be a very specific application, but nonetheless possible and as such imo worth mentioning.

Btw. the matter page already has such a note

 

[Golden_Void]

I want to piggyback on this too because I have questions of my own.

On the matter manipulation page it does say:

Atomic Level

"At this level, Matter Manipulators are able to change the nature of atoms and their properties, allowing them to transmute one thing into another, destroy atoms to obliterate a target, completely rearrange atomic structures to create virtually anything, among other things."

So why is it that people disagree with what's here?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

This thread is old look at the date .=.

 

[DaFritzi]

Yeah, but my suggested changes were never applied. As such the issues I mentioned are still present.

 

[Golden_Void]

You should get some more staff on this.

 

[Antvasima]

The staff do not have enough time and energy to constantly revisit old threads that they have already given answers to. As such, I will close it now.