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Transformers Multiversal Revision

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@Emirp sumitpo
Well, the universal stream containing infinite universes is wrong. Hyterion would be universal based on this, not multiversal.

I've already said why I think Unicron being a danger to the multiverse statements are invalid for the infinite multiversal Unicron argument.

Then you have Unicron being unable to destroy more than a universe in his physical form.

These are why I think infinite multiversal scaling is iffy.

The only thing that may scale is the artifacts. But even then, if the Star Saber was only able to alter the multiverse (strengthen its bonds) combined with another artifact in a specific spot might mean it is not straight up multiversal.

Nexus Prime also said that the Terminus Blade damaged the multiverse, but we know that the blade only destroyed the Classicsverse and further damaged because it teleported the Rarified Energpn out of that universe.
Image

So, there are more than one way of damaging the multiverse than just oneshotting it DBZ style. It seems there are multiple ways of damaging the multiverse basically. When stuff like this exists, simply saying that the Star Saber can oneshot a multiverse based on Nexus Prime statement is iffy when there are demonstratibly different ways of damaging the multiverse.

But otherwise, this is the only way the avatar Unicron scales.
 
I'll reply to this in a bit as I don't wanna type all this in phone.

But what is your suggested rating for this if you disagree with the other proposals. What is your proposed rating for all the multiversal proifiles?
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Also, why were the 17 dimensions statements discarded? Was it because of a lack of context? I'm not the most familiar with stuff in 1-C and higher, and am only aware of the basics of it.
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I believe it’s because there wasn’t enough proof of them being higher infinities.
 
Basically, there wasn’t proof that each dimension was infinitely higher than the last, so it didn’t qualify for 1-B.
 
Got this from tfwiki


The size of the multiverse is vast and unknown. While the TransTech have records of just shy of sixteen million universes, there are certainly many more. When the Autobots of universal stream Aurex 402.24 Gamma began scanning alternate realities when their Optimus Prime became lost in the multiverse, they worked through 75,890,007 realities in addition to their own before locating him. Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4 Dimensional traveller Bug Bite from Gargent 984.08 Alpha, meanwhile, has claimed that there are over fifteen quadrillion concurrent realities, Games of Deception though Vector Prime has stated that this figure includes the entire Omniverse. Ask Vector Prime, 2015/05/21
 
also from tf wiki


Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17. How alien it must be. Then ponder the wildest universes those beings could articulate. Then realize that even these musings fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse.Vector Prime, Ask Vector Prime

Contents​

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Primestar3 said:
The only thing that may scale is the artifacts. But even then, if the Star Saber was only able to alter the multiverse (strengthen its bonds) combined with another artifact in a specific spot might mean it is not straight up multiversal.

Nexus Prime also said that the Terminus Blade damaged the multiverse, but we know that the blade only destroyed the Classicsverse and further damaged because it teleported the Rarified Energpn out of that universe.
Image
Click to expand...
I feel this is a bit stretching it. The Terminus Blade functions differently than the Star Saber does, and considering the star saber has never done anything like the terminus blade, I find it likely the True Star Saber destroys the multiverse in a way like that.

Looking at the whole universe stream thing, it looks to be more 2-C than 2-A. Hytherion should go from 2-A as a collective to 2-C as a collective, I think 2-A alternity can stay, as it is stated to be comprised of an infinite amount of singular transformer combined into a gestalt being, accordint to the wiki.

The Creator should be downgraded from 2-B to 2-C, as it's justification implies 2-C ratings.

I'd appreciate if Amelia were to reply for why universe streams are 2-A, as they look more like 2-C structures.

Shadyboi0 said:
Got this from tfwiki


The size of the multiverse is vast and unknown. While the TransTech have records of just shy of sixteen million universes, there are certainly many more. When the Autobots of universal stream Aurex 402.24 Gamma began scanning alternate realities when their Optimus Prime became lost in the multiverse, they worked through 75,890,007 realities in addition to their own before locating him. Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4 Dimensional traveller Bug Bite from Gargent 984.08 Alpha, meanwhile, has claimed that there are over fifteen quadrillion concurrent realities, Games of Deception though Vector Prime has stated that this figure includes the entire Omniverse. Ask Vector Prime, 2015/05/21
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As far as I can tell, The Transformers Multiverse is 2-A. The Omniverse is Low 1-C. 2-B is unreasonable for both.

As of now, here is my new proposal.

Unicron's new justification: Varies. From 5-B to At least 2-C, Possibly 2-A | At least 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C

Attack Potency: Varies. From Planet level (Consistently shown to be as big, if not bigger, than planets like Earth) to At least Low Multiverse level (Some of his strongest avatars have devoured their Universal streams. Superior to threats such as the Hytherion or the Thirteen themselves), Possibly Multiverse level+ (Unicron is likely superior to the power of the True Star Saber, which has the power to destroy the entire multiverse, which is repeatedly mentions to be infinite in size. The thirteen have never suceeded in truly defeating him. Stronger avatars are much stronger than his strongest heralds, such as Ramjet or versions of The Fallen. The thirteen have never truly succeeded in defeating him) | At least Multiverse level+, Possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Should be vastly superior to his strongest avatars. Has been stated to be capable of devouring the multiverse numerous times, and has even done it in the past. Has stated to threaten consume all of existence, which may possibly extend to the Omniverse, which is made of Uncountable Infinities)

Vector Prime's new justification: Varies. From 5-B to At least 2-C | At least 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C

Attack Potency: Varies. From Planet level for his weakest avatars (Although significantly lesser in power, the Thirteen were tasked with holding back weaker versions of Unicron, who are usually planetary in size and power) to At least Low Multiverse level (Despite being much weaker, he should be able to fight against Unicron's strongest avatars, and are able to handle threats such as the Hytherion, and fight against many constant threats that threaten the multiverse. Should inhabit a similar level of existence to the Alternity, whose true forms dwarve entire universes) | At least Multiverse level+, Possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Inhabits a similar level of existence to the likes of True Unicron. Should be superior to any avatar. Although far inferior, the Thirteen were originally designed by Primus to aid him in battle against Unicron, who can consume all of the uncountably infinite multiverse)

The One should At least 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C

My opinion on the new rating is between this and the OP. I'd appreciate other suggestions, from staff and others
 
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Crabwhale makes sense to me regarding infinite universes, i.e. 2-A. That is fine. However, that is not remotely automatically the same thing as uncountably infinite universes, i.e. Low 1-C.
 
The Transformers Multiverse is arguably only 2-A, with the Omniverse being the one that is Low 1-C. It's debatable whether Low 1-C applies for the TF multiverse or whether or not Unicron and Primus affect the Omniverse.
 
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to offer input regarding this?
Click to expand...
Uncountably in mathematical terms means something different that uncountable in the sense we mean in normal language.

Uncountably infinite many of something (mathematically) >> infinite x infinite many of something > Uncountable amount of infinite many of something in normal use of the word uncountable

If I understand correctly this is a case of destroying infinite multiverses with infinite universes each, which would indeed still be 2-A.
It could be different if uncountably is used in a mathematical sense here.
 
Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17. How alien it must be. Then ponder the wildest universes those beings could articulate. Then realize that even these musings fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse.

I think they mean uncountably infinite multiverses.
 
One could argue multiverses considering Vector Prime is talking about the Omniverse (Or all of creation, as the Omniverse is referred to as that sometimes), and Omniverse is described as a collection of multiverses in the context of Transformers.
 
Thank you for helping out DontTalk.
 
So what from I understand:

Uncountable infinite universes: Low 1-C

Infinite amount of infinite universes: 2-A

Uncountable amount of Infinite Universes: 2-A

Am I correct?
 
Uncountable infinities just means a very large number of infinite sets of universes.

Uncountably infinite means, well, as many universes as there are real numbers, if I got this right.
 
Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17.

i might be reaching but there can be an argument for 1-B omniverse.
 
As stated above, there's nothing to prove that those dimensions are infinitely superior to the last, like LordTracer said, unless you can find evidence as such, then 1-B transformers is not a thing.

Also 17 dimensions is referring to the Transformers multiverse while 13 dimensions is referring to other multiverses but that's irrelevant
 
Shadyboi0 said:
Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17.

i might be reaching but there can be an argument for 1-B omniverse.
Click to expand...
Nothing here says these dimensions are qualitatively superior to each other so no.
 
@Emirp sumitpo
Universal streams don't contain splinter timelines tho. Splinter timelines are their own streams.

I guess possibly infinite multiversal Unicron avatar if we scale him to Star Saber's statement is fine. But as i said, we know that you don't need even universal power to damage the multiverse, so it's debetable (especially when Star Saber couldn't strengthen the boundaries of the multiverse on its own, and it's even speculated by Vector Prime that that didn't even affect the whole of Multiverse). But a "possibly" is fine, I guess, as I said.

IDK why people are still taking TransTech/Vector Prime quotes seriously. They never entertained the notion of an infinite multiverse. And remember, Ramjrt himself says that Unicron can't destroy the unfinite multiverse, so even if you scale him to 2-A via the AOE argument, he still wouldn't be a threat to the infinite multiverse, so this whole argument doesn't even make sense.

This is the last I'l say on this topic tho.
 
Don't Universal stream tend to splinter into seperate pieces? That's 2-C in it's own right.

So my new proposal is fine to you?
 
Ah, alright then. Considering I currently don't have the mental capacity to look through all of this again I'll take your word for it. I'll wait for others to input
 
Primestar3 said:
Nexus Prime also said that the Terminus Blade damaged the multiverse, but we know that the blade only destroyed the Classicsverse and further damaged because it teleported the Rarified Energpn out of that universe.
Image
Click to expand...
This only affected the multiverse in that way, because Hytherion was destroyed.
Rook - Axiom Nexus News: Investigative Journalist

May 8, 2015

Dux non Intruitus. Words that many Offworlders can't even say, let alone understand. But when they were first logged into Transtech regulations, the safety and security of the Offworlder Zone was strengthened immensely.

Simply put "Dux non Intruitus" means that leaders cannot enter Axiom Nexus. Offworlder leaders that is. Any foreign Optimus Primes, Rodimuses, Ultra Magnuses, Megatrons, Shockwaves, Starscreams, and any other Autobot or Decepticon that have held the rank of commander, chief, emperor, or tyrant are instantly caught by our universal recovery net and sent back to their home universe.

This is done so that we do not have any figureheads around whom the Offworlders can rally. No leaders to stir loyalty in their followers and create a commotion by squaring off against life-long rivals. We simply allow soldiers, not those who would order them into action.

Since Transtech Starscream wrote the decree, however, there have been amendments made. Just a few short stellar cycles ago, Optimus Prime - that's the Transtechs' Optimus Prime - altered the wording to allow a task force of alternate universe Primes to serve under the Security Administration's guidelines. While non-interference is still key in the Transtechs' treatment of other universes, this "Convoy" of alternate Primes have, as Offworlders, a little extra leeway to nudge events in ways to safeguard the multiverse.

It was not a popular amendment among many Transtech. The changes, as well as the Convoy itself, were kept secret until two members of the group revealed themselves to a gathering of ruffians in the Offworlder Zone. They were meant to recruit an Offworlder bounty hunter and send him to one of the negative universes on yet another secret mission. But revealing themselves and their direct involvement in affecting the natural course of a universe's timeline caused Axiom Nexus to explode in heated fervor.

Optimus Prime explained the creation of the Convoy as a desperate but needed reaction to the devastation and destabilization that had been spreading across the multiverse. Events triggered by a negative universe Ultra Magnus led to the implosion of a universe in the Primax cluster. While universes implode, explode and unravel all the time, this universe was special. It housed something buried there by the Thirteen original Primes themselves. The shockwaves of that artifact being ripped from its hiding place rippled tremendously through the void between universes. To make matters worse, the defeat of the Hytherion at the hands of the Alternity meant that the natural buffer that had once existed to prevent such chaos from running rampant was simply no longer there. The beast that once consumed weakened and damaged universes was inactive, and infection spread without constrain.

And so the Convoy were sent into the Offworlder Zone to recruit special forces and teams to try to slow the damage themselves. Distrust from the Decepticons peaked, but then plateaued when they realized the limited contact that the Convoy would have with the majority of the Offworlder Zone inhabitants. They weren't to act as leaders for the rest of the Autobots, and were asked to remain in Axiom Nexus proper or Cloud World for the majority of their missions.

Even with the alterations to the original decree, Dux non Intruitus still keeps the peace in the Offworlder Zone today. So let us hope that this "No Leaders Clause" remains in place and enforced for stellar-cycles to come!
Emirp sumitpo said:
The Transformers Multiverse is arguably only 2-A, with the Omniverse being the one that is Low 1-C. It's debatable whether Low 1-C applies for the TF multiverse or whether or not Unicron and Primus affect the Omniverse.
Click to expand...
The Shrouding probably affected even the Megaverse, because a being like Physis who is older than the megaverse was affected and divided by that event.
Transformers: Spacewarp's Log

January 31, 2016
Spacewarp's Log,

Cruising through space, when Foldspace detects a big space battle a couple of parsecs over. I figure, hey, why not check it out? I get into range and who should it be but my new friend Galaxy Shuttle, getting the stuffing beat outta him by Parthinian Raiders. Man, I hate those stupid flying monkeys! Anyway, always good to have an ally, so I transformed and asked my Three Amigos if they'd be so kind as to unite into the Transwarp Blaster mode. With their combined firepower, I made those Wizard of Oz rejects run for the proverbial hills.

Old G.S., he'd detoured at Parthus, drawn by unusual energy readings. He found the crashed remains of an enormous ship, hundreds of miles long, matching no known configuration. Moreover, its transwarp signature indicated that there may be trans-dimensional energy involved. He had just decided to make haste back to Cybertron to let Optimus Prime and Megatron know about it, when the Parthinians decided to get fresh.

Well, this was certainly exciting. Vector Prime noted that he was on an important mission, and couldn't be diverted from it, but asked if I'd investigate. I've kicked the Raiders' collective butts once before, during the whole Spiral Yōkai and the Lattice of Armageddon incident, and figured I could do it again if need be.

That might have been just a BIIIIIIIIIT hasty. I get to Parthus, and they've got a giant armada in space. I'm starting to think that whatever it was that G.S. stumbled upon, it's bigger than a normal salvage op. Luckily I've cut my emissions to zero so they haven't notice me yet. I figure we get a few passive scans and then I skedaddle. Except Boom Tube and Foldspace let me know that the trans-dimensional energy, it's currently undergoing logarithmic decay. Whatever it is that's down there is going to be dead in a few hours. And it's the ONLY indication of something extra-universal we've seen since this whole Shroud nonsense started.

Ok, plan, plan, need a plan. One presents itself when one of the Parthinian battle cruisers heads our way, behind their second moon (by distance from the planet, first by mass). Opportunity knocks. I nudge myself onto an intercept course, jam their signals, and sic my Mini-Cons on them in a boarding party. They take out the simian occupants, and soon I've got a brand new set of battle cruiser shaped clothes. We've still got the captain, tied up and with a weapon to his head, which is enough to persuade him to give us some landing codes. Down we go, to visit the giant tower leaning haphazardly out of the ground.

As impressive as the sensor readings are, seeing the thing up close is just breathtaking. Even swarming with Parthinians, it's like Primus came down and jammed a stake into the ground, extending on into infinity. The engineering requirements behind it just boggle the imagination. It's definitely technological, gleaming metal tubes and diodes and wires and ductwork every which way. Lights race across its surface, forming patterns that I can almost, but not quite, grasp. Whoever or whatever built this, it's clear they're operating at a level far beyond anything I'd ever encountered before.

And it was dying. I'm not sure how I knew that, but I knew it. Something in it reached out to me, and I knew I had to get inside. Fortunately, there were caverns and bays thousands of feet wide, so inside I flew. In all of the chaos of the Parthinian presence profaning this artifact, they never noticed one more craft.

Once inside, I felt something pulling on my Spark, tugging it this way and that. Might as well run with it, I figured. Truthfully, I was in awe. I could tell my companions felt the same way, even Starburst. We flew for at least eighty or ninety miles inside the superstructure before the corridors narrowed to the point where I had to stop and walk. At a couple of points, I even had to crawl through narrow openings. But eventually I arrived at what could only be the heart of the structure. It was a beautiful, flawless diamond, forty feet tall and twenty feet wide at its middle, cut and polished into a million facets. It was suffused with a gentle blue glow, and I put my hand on it without thinking.

"So," it rumbled in my laser core, "you have come. I hoped/prayed you would."

"Who are you," I asked.

"You may call me Physis. Before the multiverse/megaverse was, I was."

I felt more than words could communicate. "You're... you're dying."

"Well observed, little one. There has been a change in the underlying substrata/conception of time/space/thought/matter, and this reality I find myself in has been impacted/changed unusually vigorously. This aspect of me/myself/I can no longer touch/feel/grasp the greater whole that is me/myself/I/Physis and is thus fated to perish/expire/die."

An infinite sadness welled up inside me. "What can I do?"

"Nothing/everything. The death/fatality/termination is inevitable. But to leave behind my husk/corpse/body/derelict for these scurrying/curious/inquisitive/malicious/petty/insignificant beings to use is unacceptable/negative/unfortunate/regrettable. I ask that you hasten-my-demise/put-me-out-of-my-misery/euthanize-me/pull-the-plug."

I broke contact for a moment. The crystalline entity before me was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. And a little, niggling part of me told me that it might be exactly what Megatron needed to punch through the Shroud. I touched it again. "I'm sorry... I don't think I can."

"You must. The thought/doubt/notion you encountered just now, it will occur to others. This shard/aspect of me is not me/all-of-me/my-entirety. To end this fragment would be a mercy/blessing/kindness."

I wasn't even sure if I could, physically could. "How?"

"In a moment, I shall lower/drop the energy field that protects this-crystal/me/my-soul. If your companions/partners/friends combine into their weapon configuration, I can alter/influence/reprogram their blast to make it powerful-enough/strong-enough to be mercifully fatal/lethal/deadly."

I looked to them, and each of them nodded in turn. And so, they did, and the blue glow vanished, and I swallowed, and I pulled the trigger. At first, nothing seemed to happen, but then cracks started to appear, one by one, and then there was an explosion, and we were blown back. Even as it happened, the blue glow enveloped US, or we'd have been disintegrated. As it was, I felt that blow, and probably need about a week in a body shop.

The entire superstructure began to rumble, and I knew that it was going to shake itself apart in the next few hours. I got ready to run, but then the voice came back. "Thank you Spacewarp/adventurer/pirate/friend, for doing what needed to be done while there was yet time/opportunity. This is a recording/ghost/message-in-a-bottle. In five-minutes/300-seconds/299,792-kilometers, a portal will open that can take you back to your home/origin/dimension-of-record. You may take it or you may stay/remain, but this will surely be the last/final chance to depart this place/plane/reality/sphere. Use the time I've given you to make your choice/decision."

So, that's where I am. Clock ticking. And that's the dilemma. There's five of us, so we're going to vote, no abstentions. I've made some amazing friends here, and it's certainly an interesting Cybertron. But I'm not sure if I want to commit to never seeing my own again. If you don't hear from me again, it's been grand. Be safe, don't take any jobs I wouldn't take, yadda yadda yadda. Watch your afterburners, and always live life to the fullest. I certainly have.

Spacewarp's Log, out!
 
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I guess that acts as more basis on them being higher, but I'll add input later as it's late night and I should really be sleeping
 
If the relevant profile pages already scale to 2-A, we should probably close this thread.
 
Not really, the profiles should need to have their justifications re-written. And the alternate and the hytherion are getting likely downgraded to 2-B. Primus and Unicron aren't really getting their stats changed but said stats should have their justifications re-written.

I'll put my new proposal in here soon
 
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Okay. Thank you for helping out.
 
Wait a minute. The uncountable infinities doesn't actually mean uncountably infinite universes looking at the post in question. Wouldn't this downgrade Unicron from Low 1-C to 2-A?
 
No. Uncountable infinities is referring to universes? As the person was asking what sort of universes existed in the omniverse.
 
Low 1-C is only for his true self, which was able to consume all of creation at one point, before it got re-created, him and Primus fighting risked getting the multiverse destroyed so he trapped both of them in corporeal bodies, thus making both weaker. He also scales above weapons that could destroy the multiverse
 
The OP is gonna be changed and is getting revised. Because all of existence sometimes refers to the omniverse, and there are other statements that seem to suggest that Unicron, Primus and others do affect the omniverse. My proposal is gonna be: At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C. Plus, uncountable infinities is Low 1-C, right? Whenever this is brought up, no one seems to be able to make up their mind on whether it's 2-A or Low 1-C. That was what was even stated in thread that downgraded Unicron into Low 1-C by some staff. Unless the standards have changed.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The OP is gonna be changed and is getting revised. Because all of existence sometimes refers to the omniverse, and there are other statements that seem to suggest that Unicron, Primus and others do affect the omniverse. My proposal is gonna be: At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C. Plus, uncountable infinities is Low 1-C, right? Whenever this is brought up, no one seems to be able to make up their mind on whether it's 2-A or Low 1-C. That was what was even stated in thread that downgraded Unicron into Low 1-C by some staff. Unless the standards have changed.
Click to expand...
No, uncountably infinite universes is Low 1-C. As many universes as real numbers from 1 to ∞.

Uncountable infinities in the context of the post seems to mean countless 2-A multiverses (or something).
 
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