Transformers General Discussion

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
I don't recall any speed feats in Titan or Bayverse (besides the Titan Bonecrusher feat). Some characters are stated to use lasers in toy bios, and since John Barber said unless it condradicts the comics, it is canon, maybe that counts? In the comics, the characters are often drawn to use energy weapons. Though maybe they are not lightspeed lasers. I might be wanking here. Even if they are lasers, I don't remember characters dodging them.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Lasers have been used a lot to the point that they need to justify that they are actual lasers and not just lasers in name.

I'm iffy on using the toy bios as it becomes very debatable on what is canon or not. IIRC, TFwiki actually straight up ignored this as gets into a lot of debating.

Didn't you say there was a mountain or island level feat for idw Ironhide?

 

[Primestar3]

Lasers have been used a lot to the point that they need to justify that they are actual lasers and not just lasers in name.

I'm iffy on using the toy bios as it becomes very debatable on what is canon or not. IIRC, TFwiki actually straight up ignored this as gets into a lot of debating.

Didn't you say there was a mountain or island level feat for idw Ironhide?

True.

Based on what John Barber said, toy bios would count unless they condradict. I mean he straight up said this. I think TFWiki ignores that because it would be kind of confusing.

In the Veiled Threat novel, it is said that if all of Ironhide's ammunation in the Diego Garcia base went off at the same time, it would destroy the island and probably India. Considering that Ironhide says it would probably destroy India, that probably means it would destroy a big chunk of it either way. Otherwise, the explosion wouldn't be close to destroying India, and there would be no point to saying that India would probably be destroyed.

However, I am not sure how much the Veiled Threat story fits the IDW-verse now (Ghosts of Yesterday is definitely canon tho). IIRC, John Barber said he didn't actually read it in the podcast (unless he was talkimg about another novel). Also, Longarm and Salvage are fully fledged Cybertronians in the novel, while they are AllSpark Mutations in the comics. John Barber straight up calls this an inconsistency in the Podcast.

However, initially, the Allspark mutation ones from the comics were never called Longarm and Salvage by name, so perhaps it could be reconciled that the Allspark mutations from the comics are just different TFs with different names and not Longarm and Salvage from the novel. I mean, we don't even see the Allspark mutations' robot mode, only their alt modes, until Rising Storm.

Their appearance in the Rising Storm comic could be depicting the Cybertronian ones from the Veiled Threat, considering the ones from Rising Storm were acting like sentient normal Cybertronans like they were in Veiled Threat. This is only my fan explanation tho. Although, perhaps Longarm and Salvage's Rising Storm appearances were there due to John Barber attempting to reconcile the novel depiction with the comics. I mean even though he seemingly says he didn't read Veiled Threat (again, unless I misheard), he still used characters from the novel and seemingly tried to reconcile it with the comics.

Blademaster - Transformers Wiki

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Ruination (ROTF) - Transformers Wiki

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So, I think he still counts it as IDW canon. I am guessing he would have explained the Longarm, Salvage inconsistency if he had a chance.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

If you could provide a scan that would be great. However, with the inconsistency and the fact John Barber never read the novel. I'm unsure if it should be added.

If we do decide to add it, I think the key could be: At most 7-B, up to 6-C with weaponry. 6-C seems to scale for the totality of Ironhide's weapons only and not his physicals. Unless you could provide evidence that it does

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
Yeah, it'a a little iffy, but considering he used characters from it, it might count, maybe.

I haven't read the entirety of the novel, only half of it, so it may not scale just based on that dialogue. However, that quote was to show how strong and dangerous TF weapons were. The scene was that Epps was sent by the government to ask Ironhide how dangerous Ironhide's weapons were. If all those weapons that can wipe a country/continent fits Diego Garcia, then could that give an idea on how strong a singular weapon is, maybe?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not really? It refers to the totality of his weapons. I really don't think you could just divide the result.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo @Drite77
In Titan comics, Skids and Mudflap call humans using radiowaves primitive.
Image
The earlier story said that if the two sent a message to the Autobots on Earth through subspace, their reentry forms would still reach Earth from Cybertron before the message did.

Transformers Comic issue 2.1 - Transformers Wiki

tfwiki.net

"Mudflap and Skids, eavesdropping, don't like the sound of that. But a sub-space signal would take time to reach the other Autobots, too much time... meaning the only other option would be to leave Cybertron and inform the others themselves".

Considering that Skids and Mudflap consider radiowaves, which are lightspeed, primitive and since their reentry forms would outspeed their own form of long distance communication, which is seemingly faster than radiowaves, is it safe to say they are FTL? It also seems they reached Earth from Cybertron in a short time.

 

[Drite77]

@Emirp sumitpo @Drite77
In Titan comics, Skids and Mudflap call humans using radiowaves primitive.
Image
The earlier story said that if the two sent a message to the Autobots on Earth through subspace, their reentry forms would still reach Earth from Cybertron before the message did.

Transformers Comic issue 2.1 - Transformers Wiki

tfwiki.net

"Mudflap and Skids, eavesdropping, don't like the sound of that. But a sub-space signal would take time to reach the other Autobots, too much time... meaning the only other option would be to leave Cybertron and inform the others themselves".

Considering that Skids and Mudflap consider radiowaves, which are lightspeed, primitive and since their reentry forms would outspeed their own form of long distance communication, which is seemingly faster than radiowaves, is it safe to say they are FTL? It also seems they reached Earth from Cybertron in a short time.

That is false equivalency, some people consider SNES very old and primitive, yet we can't build one

 

[Primestar3]

That is false equivalency, some people consider SNES very old and primitive, yet we can't build one

Not saying that they can build one, but they were faster than their OWN form of communication (subspace), so wouldn't that be faster? I mean a gaming console an average person has today is more advanced than SNES if we are going with the SNES angle.

 

[Drite77]

Context is needed, were they on a ship? If yes than at best their ship is ftl. Either way, I think that it is safe to say that no one, neither on the movie comics or the movies themselves, have FTL travel speed on foot or their vehicle mode

 

[Primestar3]

Context is needed, were they on a ship? If yes than at best their ship is ftl. Either way, I think that it is safe to say that no one, neither on the movie comics or the movies themselves, have FTL travel speed on foot or their vehicle mode

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This image from a review of the first issue implies so.

It would be easier to tell if there were actually full scans of the comic online instead of just synopsises and panels, but it seems the Twins indeed don't board a ship.

 

[Drite77]

Again, the Cybertronians having FTL travel speed on their vehicle mode seems kinda whack for me and an outlier. If that was the case, Skids and Mudflap would have be able to travel around all of Cybertron whitin minutes

 

[Primestar3]

Again, the Cybertronians having FTL travel speed on their vehicle mode seems kinda whack for me and an outlier. If that was the case, Skids and Mudflap would have be able to travel around all of Cybertron whitin minutes

It's reentry mode, not vehicle mode tho.

 

[Primestar3]

@Drite77
They were travelling from Cybertron to Earth.

 

[Drite77]

@Drite77
They were travelling from Cybertron to Earth.

I mean, if that is true than we can't really have KE feats. Besides, I don't think the protoform mode being FTL doesn't really change anything, just a little thing on the profile saying (FTL with protoform mode, non combat applicable)

 

[Primestar3]

I mean, if that is true than we can't really have KE feats. Besides, I don't think the protoform mode being FTL doesn't really change anything, just a little thing on the profile saying (FTL with protoform mode, non combat applicable)

Not saying it changes anything, but it is a travel speed feat.

Considering that in the ROTF movie itself (which is canon to Titan) it is said that Protoforms fell at Mach 45, KE would still apply.

And otherwise, Titan reentries caused some big explosions.
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3

So, even if they were falling at FTL speeds, the visuals can at least still be used to determine the KE.

 

[Primestar3]

One more thing is that the recap text of one chapter of the Titan alt.verse tale seems to imply that the alternate Titan-verse was created by the power of AllSpark.
It says that the history is deformed by the power of the AllSpark.
Image

This one says that the story takes place "on an Earth twisted by the power of the AllSpark".
Image

Technically, Earth literally does get deformed by the AllSpark in the story itself. The first scan might be better proof for AllSpark creatimg the alternate timeline, but IDK, it could be figure of speech.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not saying it changes anything, but it is a travel speed feat.

Considering that in the ROTF movie itself (which is canon to Titan) it is said that Protoforms fell at Mach 45, KE would still apply.

And otherwise, Titan reentries caused some big explosions.
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3

So, even if they were falling at FTL speeds, the visuals can at least still be used to determine the KE.

But you still need to have the weights tho.

One more thing is that the recap text of one chapter of the Titan alt.verse tale seems to imply that the alternate Titan-verse was created by the power of AllSpark.
It says that the history is deformed by the power of the AllSpark.
Image

This one says that the story takes place "on an Earth twisted by the power of the AllSpark".
Image

Technically, Earth literally does get deformed by the AllSpark in the story itself. The first scan might be better proof for AllSpark creatimg the alternate timeline, but IDK, it could be figure of speech.

Looks more like figure of speech

 

[Primestar3]

But you still need to have the weights tho.

I'm just saying it's still KE.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'm not that knowledgeable on this kind of stuff, but in order to get a key, you need a weight and speed. Which this has neither because we don't have a weight nor can we use FTL for ke feats

 

[Primestar3]

I'm not that knowledgeable on this kind of stuff, but in order to get a key, you need a weight and speed. Which this has neither because we don't have a weight nor can we use FTL for ke feats

I am saying that IF we get one, it wouldn't be invalidated because they are travelling at FTL, since ROTF the movie is canon to Titan, where Protoforms hit the atmosphere at Mach 45.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Well do your have a weight for them?

 

[Primestar3]

Well do your have a weight for them?

The only thing I know is that the Movie Guide profiles were reprinted in Titan.
http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/im...itan-uk-issue1/review-titan-uk-issue1-006.jpg

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I can't find anything talking about weight in that scan

 

[Primestar3]

I can't find anything talking about weight in that scan

I am aware.

My point is that it doesn't matter if their top speed is FTL, as they still entered at Mach 45. This is my whole point. If we get weighs, it can can be calced then.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I thought we aren't using re-entry feats anymore? Is that not why bayverse got downgraded from 8-A to 8-B

 

[Primestar3]

I thought we aren't using re-entry feats anymore? Is that not why bayverse got downgraded from 8-A to 8-B

Drite77 said that if Protoforms are FTL, then KE wouldn't apply, and I am saying that they didn't hit Earth at FTL, but rather Mach 45. This is the whole argument.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying that I thought we just decided to ditch re-entry because of inconsistent and vague weights. Speed is not the problem here, it's weight.

 

[Primestar3]

I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying that I thought we just decided to ditch re-entry because of inconsistent and vague weights. Speed is not the problem here, it's weight.

I just meant speed tho.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ok, so to correct what I said about re-entry and stuff.

Earlier, I said only protoforms can survive re-entry. That's not really true.

Protoforms are actually for travelling interstellar distances without a spaceship and quickly, not specifically for entering the atmosphere apparently (There's nothing really saying that only protoforms can survive re-entry).

So with that logic, all Transformers probably CAN survive re-entry, but they need a protoform to travel interstellar distances quickly unless they have a flight mode. Them being light and skinny is so they can travel fast, not re-enter the atmosphere better. This is why we see TLK Optimus frozen in space because he forgot to strip himself, but could re-enter cybertron's atmosphere just fine, or the fact that Megatron or Starscream could just re-enter the atmosphere as he pleases without the need to get naked become a protoform. We even see the Fallen enter re-entry just fine.

Also while extended media don't apply for the main canon, there are tons of scenes where characters just enter re-entry with no problem. (I'd list them down if you want to)

That being said, we probably still shouldn't use re-entry as the weights are extremely inconsistent throughout the media.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
It's a shame the weighs are inconsistent tbh.

Also, one thing; if Ironhide's Movie Guide profile was published in Titan, that wouls give him 10 kilotons firepower.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I guess if we could come to an agreed weight to use, and if what I said is accepted by others, then an upgrade could be considered.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
Also, which characrers survived reentry in robot mode in the comics?

I can remember two; Jetfire and Shockwave (the former was knocked out tho, but the explosion itself was bigger than hills).

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The fallen pretty much just did it easy. I guess it is possible to downscale everyone from the Fallen. But the problem, which weight should be used?

If we use 50 tons from the script, we get Low 7-C, and everyone who is below the Fallen becomes 8-A+. But 50 tons sounds hyperbolic.

If we use 10 tons, everyone significantly below the Fallen either becomes 8-B+ or 8-A. Problem is, it might be more reliable to use the script as it is a source that comes from the producers themselves.

I guess we could just use re-entry for characters who have actually done re-entry instead of assuming it for all characters, like the dinobots who done no re-entry feats. But we still need input from others before we can start even doing this.

 

[Primestar3]

My final opinion on this is that in regards to weight, IMO, everything from script to movie statements to director statements is pointing towards the characters weighing much more than the Movie Guide suggests.

The way I see it, the script height for Fallen at 40 feet seems more or less accurate, so most likely 50 tons would be as well and not hyperbole. If it was an exaggeration, the height would be different as well.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Maybe. We need input from others for this.

 

[Primestar3]

Maybe. We need input from others for this.

Could this ship count as mountain level durability?

Guardian Knights' ship - Transformers Wiki

tfwiki.net

3:00

According to TFWiki, it is the same ship. Size-wise, it is pretty big, and it appears to be embedded into the mountain almost completely. We see later that it is mostly intact.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The ship should be mountain level via sheer size alone. So yes

 

[Primestar3]

The ship should be mountain level via sheer size alone. So yes

Hmm, Megatron's missiles burned its surface a little. That wouldn't make him mountain level (it was only a small area), but it might give him a feat, maybe?

I am guessing a normal ship wouldn't survive a crash through the mountain.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

No. It burning a small part of the ship doesn't Megatron mountain level.

Also the ship looks a lot smaller than a mountain looking at it again. It's likely only a part of the mountain itself. Looks to be large size type 2, which if I remember right, that would be 8-A to Low 7-C