Tower of God has a speed problem (+Crown Game Calculations)

[Gabriel_00]

And why assume the light from the mirror was altered to not move at light speed for no particular reason?
Are we really going to disregard a legitimate feat in favor of an old blogpost? I much rather we get rid of SoL attack speed for Urek than removing relativistic speed for everyone.

 

[ElajRuengies]

And why assume the light from the mirror was altered to not move at light speed for no particular reason?
Are we really going to disregard a legitimate feat in favor of an old blogpost? I much rather we get rid of SoL attack speed for Urek than removing relativistic speed for everyone.

For that first point- because it still makes more sense than Data Urek moving at over 1/3 SoL for reasons below.
For the second point- Yes, I am. Aside from the Mirror Dodge, the distances crossed in Tower of God are simply too small, and the time scales are too big, for Mid-tiers to be Relativistic.

Example 1: In the second to last scene of S2 CH315, Jinsung hijacks a High-Speed Warship to get to the Last Station. There are two timeskips in the next chapter; one of 10 Days, and then one of 1 Week, for a total of 17 days elapsed since Jinsung hijacks the Warship, where they arrive at the Last Station. Jinsung also arrives at the Last Station on the same day, meaning it took the Warship 17 days to cross 47 Floors. (Jinsung's residence is on Floor 91, while the Last Station is on Floor 44)

Even if it's assumed that the ship is only active 8 hours a day, and that it has to cross the whole diameter of each Floor to go between Warp Gates; that still only makes the High Speed Warship (using the radius of a Floor from the Admin Calc) (4868.38957 km * 2 * 1000 meters in a kilometer *47 floors) / (17 days * 8 hours * 60 minutes * 60 seconds) = 934.7 m/s, or less than Mach 3.

If Jinsung could actually move at over 1/3 SoL as his current profile says, he could make the 457,628,619.6 meter long trip in 4.3 seconds, at which point why even use a ship? Say what you will about the difference between Combat and Travel speed, because even if Jinsung only had the stamina to manage 1/3+ SoL Speed for half a second each day, he'd still beat the High-Speed Warship by over a week. (Yes, I'm aware Jinsung had to pick up Kaiser, but if getting a Regular results in having to use a ship that increases your travel time by over 300,000 fold, I think carrying her would be more practical. Or just not picking her up at all.)

Example 2: In S2 CH 336, Shibisu in a warship comes to the rescue and the Last Station zorps away. There's a cut to 10 Minutes Later when it stops zorping, and Evankhell arrives shortly after. In the next chapter, Madorako hides the Station, and near the end Kallavan is informed of this:

We detected High-Density Shinsu at a distance of around 300 kilometers!! We found something that looks like a Station, but then... It disappeared in an instant!

Evankhell crossed 300 kilometers in 10 Minutes; 300,000 meters/600 seconds = 500 m/s = Not even Mach 2. If Evankhell was at the 1/3+ SoL Speed, it would have taken her less than 0.003 seconds. Hell, if Kallavan were Relativistic, he could've caught up to the Last Station zorping away in the first ten-thousandth of second; and even if Evankhell being there impeded that, Evankhell leaves shortly after. At which point, why does Relativistic Kallavan wait to enter a floating ship that would be several thousand times slower than he is, when he could go after them on his own two Relativistic feet immediately?

Example 3: In S3 CH 27, Khell Hellam space-arrows Baylord Yama and Co in all different directions. And then this exchange occurs between Yama and Karaka.

Karaka: This must be... the building across from the arena... He must be trying to keep us here so he can go steal the Fang.
Yama: Don't worry. If I really move it, I can get there in a matter of seconds. (Ruel sent me the location.)

The inner circle of The Cage is only a couple kilometers across at most; even if Yama's on the opposite side as Khell and using just one second at the timeframe, that still puts Base Yama's speed at just ~3,000 m/s, or ~Mach 8.75. If Yama was actually Relativistic, then he'd make the distance in less than 0.00003 seconds. Hopefully you get the point by now.

Relativistic Speeds are way too fast when you stop focusing at one scene that happened in a VR World, and look other metrics that the story has given. I'm not being shrewd bringing the Relativistic Mid-Tiers to High Hypersonic+, I'm being generous.

Anyways, I believe that makes 2 folk For the Arguments against the Relativistic and MHS feats, and 2 folk Opposing it, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

I was summoned here, what is being asked of me?

@DemonGodMitchAubin

We would appreciate if you can evaluate this, and then tell us here:

Khun Clears the Crown Room Speed Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Data Zahard Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@DemonGodMitchAubin

We would appreciate if you can evaluate this, and then tell us here:

Khun Clears the Crown Room Speed Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Data Zahard Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have evaluated them

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

What Mitch has accepted can probably be applied then.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

What Mitch has accepted can probably be applied then.

Agreed! Thank you Mitch!

If that's the case; since Data Zahard upscales to Rankers, and they can't be both Relativistic and Mach 35 at the same time, then does that mean the Relativistic feat can be replaced for at least the Mid Tiers? (Or is it gonna be like how Data Maschenny is both Low 7-B+ and 7-A depending on what math is used?)

Or for that matter, since Data Zahard is now nearly 24 times slower than Anaak according to the MHS Attack Dodge Feat, then does that mean, not to sound like a broken clock but- it can be redone using the Speed of Electricity in Air?

Basically, is @DemonGodMitchAubin accepting the calcs a third OK for the Arguments against the MHS and Relativistic Feats? (Meaning I can get to blog making?)

 

[Antvasima]

I am not able to evaluate specific verse information. Sorry.

 

[Ped2018]

Agreed! Thank you Mitch!

If that's the case; since Data Zahard upscales to Rankers, and they can't be both Relativistic and Mach 35 at the same time, then does that mean the Relativistic feat can be replaced for at least the Mid Tiers? (Or is it gonna be like how Data Maschenny is both Low 7-B+ and 7-A depending on what math is used?)

Or for that matter, since Data Zahard is now nearly 24 times slower than Anaak according to the MHS Attack Dodge Feat, then does that mean, not to sound like a broken clock but- it can be redone using the Speed of Electricity in Air?

Basically, is @DemonGodMitchAubin accepting the calcs a third OK for the Arguments against the MHS and Relativistic Feats? (Meaning I can get to blog making?)

better call Enryu on his message wall

 

[ElajRuengies]

better call Enryu on his message wall

Enryu already agreed

 

[Gabriel_00]

@ElajRuengies
You just need to separate combat speed form travel speed, all those examples you mentioned are from travel speed. Remember that they can't just use shinsoo infinitelly, so it would make sense for them to not have relativistic travel speed.
And also, Urek didn't just dodge the beam from the mirror he also moved so fast that the mirror could not reflect him at all.

And lastly, if you look for it, it is bound to be inconsistent speeds in almost every series. Just remove the SoL attack speed from the profiles and stop nitpicking on small inconsitencies that are used to generate tension and all should be fine.

 

[ElajRuengies]

@ElajRuengies
You just need to separate combat speed form travel speed, all those examples you mentioned are from travel speed. Remember that they can't just use shinsoo infinitelly, so it would make sense for them to not have relativistic travel speed.
And also, Urek didn't just dodge the beam from the mirror he also moved so fast that the mirror could not reflect him at all.

And lastly, if you look for it, it is bound to be inconsistent speeds in almost every series. Just remove the SoL attack speed from the profiles and stop nitpicking on small inconsitencies that are used to generate tension and all should be fine.

First- I already addressed the combat-travel speed point in the first message;

Say what you will about the difference between Combat and Travel speed, because even if Jinsung only had the stamina to manage 1/3+ SoL Speed for half a second each day, he'd still beat the High-Speed Warship by over a week.

but I'll be more thorough about it this time.
While it's true that being able to move around in close combat at a certain speed does not mean one should be able to maintain that speed and run a marathon like that, that doesn't hold in this case, because the amount of energy required to [fight] at relativistic speeds is actually greater than what's required to [travel] at relativistic speeds for the distances I mentioned.
What do I mean?

In the last scene of S2 CH326, it cuts over to Jinsung stopping Kallavan's Warship, during what's listed as-

20 MINUTES EARLIER
IN THE AIR FAR AWAY FROM THE LAST STATION

They talk a bit, fight, and then it ends with Maschenny failing at kill-stealing, and Kallavan warping over to the Last Station where some time has passed. This means that the encounter lasted over 20 Minutes.
Subtracting half the time due to all the talking and ominous standing they do, and you get a timeframe of over 10 Minutes where Kallavan and Jinsung are fighting.

Now then, how can Jinsung and Kallavan fight at Relativistic Speeds for 10 minutes, but Jinsung can't manage to go at Relativistic Speeds for the 4.3 seconds needed to make it to the 44th Floor, and Kallavan can't go at Relativistic Speeds for the twenty-thousandth of second to catch the Last Station? Even if Jinsung and Kallavan are only moving their limbs and appendages at Relativistic Speeds, it'd still require tens to hundreds of times less shinsoo to move their entire bodies at Relativistic Speeds for the timeframes required, than to maintain their limbs going at that speed for 10 Minutes. And this problem is present for any Mid or above-Tiers who have been shown to rely on Floating Ships, yet also have had a fight scene that lasts longer than a fraction of a second.

The scenario isn't like someone who can throw kicks and punches at Mach 5 still buying an Airplane ticket between London and New York; it makes sense that they'd buy an airplane ticket because if they tried to push their legs to make that distance it'd still take them around an hour or more, and they'd likely be exhausted. In the case of how small the Tower is compared to how fast Relativistic Speeds are, the discrepancies are too big for the difference between Combat and Travel speed to close.

Second- I don't see how that's relevant. Also I think that's addressed in the original calc.

Third- It is true that there are inconsistent speeds in every series, and I am saying that Urek's Mirror Dodge is one of them.
I am not nitpicking, (okay, I'm nitpicking a little, but mostly) I am bringing up a number of distances and times given by the story which contradict Urek's feat; I did not need to "look" for them, as they were already there, precisely defined by the narrative. (17 days, 300 kilometers, 10 minutes, a few seconds, 20 minutes... okay I looked for the diameter of a Floor, but the rest are solid.)

Every other metric given by the story so far does not support the Relativistic Mirror Dodge Feat, making it look like an Outlier, yet apparently, the Mirror Dodge isn't inconsistent, everything else is. But I disagree with that.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Gabriel_00]

the amount of energy required to [fight] at relativistic speeds is actually greater than what's required to [travel] at relativistic speeds for the distances I mentioned.

That's a really unfair argument to make, because otherwise we should remove the combat speeds that are separate from travel speed from half the characters in the wiki. And i already said that they can't continually pump shinsoo to maintain consistent travel speed(except for Baam).

Now then, how can Jinsung and Kallavan fight at Relativistic Speeds for 10 minutes, but Jinsung can't manage to go at Relativistic Speeds for the 4.3 seconds needed to make it to the 44th Floor, and Kallavan can't go at Relativistic Speeds for the twenty-thousandth of second to catch the Last Station?

That's the nitpick i'm talking about, this exist in every story of this kind. It's not like the authors are doing math to know how fast their characters would arive from point A to B. One Piece has this exact same type of inconsistency in every arc where characters spend a lot of time running form one point to another, as i said before, inconsistencies used to generate tension.

Every other metric given by the story so far does not support the Relativistic Mirror Dodge Feat, making it look like an Outlier, yet apparently, the Mirror Dodge isn't inconsistent, everything else is. But I disagree with that.

The mirror dodge ins't contradicted in combat speed, only if you look at moments where the author clearly didn't put much thought into it. And the mirror is framed as an explicit speed feat intended by the author, different from the examples you mentioned where he just gave random timeframes.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

Look, normally when we talk about the speed of characters that are not specified in the profiles (for example, travel speed and others), normally this only refers to Combat, Reaction and Attack speed

 

[ElajRuengies]

@ElajRuengies

Look, normally when we talk about the speed of characters that are not specified in the profiles (for example, travel speed and others), normally this only refers to Combat, Reaction and Attack speed

I know, but in this case the Combat Speed is so high that it affects the Travel Speed in a way that's inconsistent with the story which... You know what, fine.

 

[ElajRuengies]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

The math that S1 Khun crossed the game-room at Subsonic+ speeds, and Data Zahard made it to the Arena at High Hypersonic speeds has been accepted by at least. However, actually listing this down on the verse page and changing the profiles of those who scale to Data Zahard is another thing entirely.

Since it sounds like @Enryu_The_Red_Tower changed their mind, and Ant's going with Enryu, that's 0 folk for the Arguments against the MHS and Relativistic Speeds, 1 folk unclear, and 4 folk for it. If that's correct... then I concede. Even though the physics for why the travel/combat speed difference doesn't fix the relativistic problem should still be valid regardless of how many verses it affects. Pettiness aside, @Gabriel_00 has a good point with the One Piece analogy at least. Although I don't think anyone can judge what is a "random" timeframe and what isn't. (I'll stop now.)

Urek's SoL Attack Speed can be removed (or replaced with "At Least SoL" or something) to make it more consistent.

With that being said, if at some point in the future it's confirmed that Urek has percisely SoL Attack Speed in-universe, and not in just a Blogpost, then I'm bringing this problem up again.

In conclusion; two calc-blogs were made, only one of which can maybe-ish be used (sorry @MiguelABarrios for wasting your time), Relativistic doesn't look or sound like a word anymore, and like, three lines across three different profiles will have to be changed regarding SoL Attack Speed.

If DGMA is still around, I have a non-speed related calc he could look over regarding 3 Rankers Stopping the Hell Train, but other than that I don't have much else to say. Thoughts?

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

Honestly, I'm still against MHS (for the reasons you explained)

About the calc of the Rankers stopping the Hell Train, I think you should do a separate thread when calc is approved

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so what, if anything, should be done here then?

 

[ElajRuengies]

@ElajRuengies

Honestly, I'm still against MHS (for the reasons you explained)

About the calc of the Rankers stopping the Hell Train, I think you should do a separate thread when calc is approved

So am I, but if the Relativistic Feat stays while the MHS Feat gets changed to just Super/Hypersonic, it'd make less sense than just keeping the calc at MHS.
(End of Hidden Floor Bam having 1/3+ SoL Combat speed makes him around 200 times faster than MHS+ Combat Speed Pre-Thorn Workshop Bam, which is somewhat plausible. But if Pre-Thorn Workshop Bam is just Super/Hypersonic, then it means that End of Hidden Floor Bam is several tens of thousands of times faster than that; that gap is simply too big.)

Either both the MHS and Relativistic Feats go, or neither of them do. It's like Pringles; you can't have just one. And since the Relativistic Feat is staying, so is the MHS Feat. Additionally, since the MHS Feat is staying, I don't think the Crown Game Feat can be applied, since it would not make sense that Khun and by scaling Endorsi got over a thousand times faster in eight years, when the first twenty floors are supposed to be a cinch for people from the 10 Great Families.

On the second point, I know, I just want to see if I can get it evaluated here.

Okay, so what, if anything, should be done here then?

Looking at my conclusions... nothing in any profiles has to be changed. Although the lines about SoL Attack Speed in Urek, Enryu, and the Admin's Profiles may be changed to "At Least SoL Attack Speed" or removed entirely due to being from a 10 Year Old Blogpost. Aside from that though, this has basically been a waste of time.
(Again, if the SoL Attack Speed is confirmed in-story, thus making the [Blogposts aren't automatically canon] point moot, then I'm bringing this up again and I won't take no for an answer, regardless of how "unfair" my argument is. But until that happens I'm fine with dropping the issue.)

Also could this calc regarding the AP of Rankers be evaluated?

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

If so, I think the SoL of the profiles who have it should be removed, but if in the canon within the webtoon itself it is stated that Urek can attack at the SoL speed, I think it is fair that this matter is discussed again

 

[Antvasima]

So should I close this thread then?

 

[ElajRuengies]

So should I close this thread then?

Sounds good

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.