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reading the reasoning behind it its basically fate trying to kill you how you envisioned your death to be
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Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier 36
- Thread starter Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
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So, does anyone have a reason why Lain Tendou would beat Han? In the tournament he beat her because type 3 madness stuff. With speed unequal, she is slower than he is too.
And how would Kumoko beat Han with speed unequal, if she can? They start 4 km apart, and he is millions of times faster even before he speed amps hundreds of times, so he can glance at her, know her whole ability list and history with lesser gods eye, and just use his enslaving magic or power steal against her.
And she wouldn't be able to even react to all of that due to sheer speed difference. He can also cause physical and mental paralysis by posing, which is ensured by his causality manipulation, which would stop any Kumuko clone ghat is using their eyes on him even if they could react.
And how would Kumoko beat Han with speed unequal, if she can? They start 4 km apart, and he is millions of times faster even before he speed amps hundreds of times, so he can glance at her, know her whole ability list and history with lesser gods eye, and just use his enslaving magic or power steal against her.
And she wouldn't be able to even react to all of that due to sheer speed difference. He can also cause physical and mental paralysis by posing, which is ensured by his causality manipulation, which would stop any Kumuko clone ghat is using their eyes on him even if they could react.
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Not infinite range, just reliant on the opponent's ability to sense/feel. Some abilities just are like that.
As i explained above, as long as she can feel the desperado, it's the same. If there is some "she's not 3D and actually a higher dimensional blah blah" bullshit then yeah we have issues. So do be a bit more specific on that "divine realm" thing, cus it is pretty important.
Ok but teleporting away doesn't do anything even for her. Being outside of desperado's range (or your ability to sense the desperado) still doesn't remove the effect as you can literally just recall a desperado or look at objects that even remotely remind you of that desperado and you'd still be affected. So after teleporting away, she'd have to do something otherwise Desperados just win cus she left the battlefield.
New clone comes in, she learns there are clones, and forces her to kill the clones. Either way this is a debate for another time. It's useless discussing it here.
Ok but "why would Y have an issue if she already beat a character from X verse" isn't the best argument for reasons you yourself understand. Besides that fight is over 1 year old now.
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Speed unequal debates? We don't do that here.
Ok but seriously, I can see Han beating Kumoko speed unequal... maybe.
However, you make a lot questionable claims there. Kumoko exists outside the system and as such can't be appraised by normal means.
Enslaving magic is resisted by mind resistance.
Kumoko has neither skills nor magic. I think it's questionable that Han can steal magecraft (i.e. meta-magic) unless there is some showing I don't remember.
Is paralysis enforced by his gamer skills or why causality enforced? I don't remember that. Anyways, some clones would teleport her out without looking.
There are such abilities, like Vandalieu's mind hax, but that has very good proof for working that way. If you just mean the mind hax part "from seeing your own death" than Gufadgarn resists due to his mind hax resistance and special mental structure.
"Fate manipulation by perception regardless of range" sounds like a stretch and NLF. Especially if we take other planes of existence like astral planes into account. So yeah, definitely need to see some better proof of that.
There technically is some stuff regarding Gufadgarns astral body apparently having a structure that can not exist in 3 dimensions, but let's not run too far with that.
She can also just quickly reincarnate. And mental effects can be alleviated vai her own mind manipulation. That anything remains under those circumstances in a powernulling field and outside of range is something I would need proof of.
The clones don't teleport in, unless Kumoko can't be transferred out. So no.
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I mean a good mechanic is all it needs. Like Ban Midou's Evil Eye.
The thing is, it's fate hax. Mind resistance wouldn't work, what would work if he's ready to throw his life away though. It's hard to find a good reason to throw you life away in a situation like that however if he can find a reason he'd rather die for then that would work.
And again, why would it be a NLF? Considering how as i said, there are people who after seeing a desperado, left their range and just recalling them still got them affected. Whereas other people got affected from cities away, even though people within the same city weren't affected, just because they could sense (in this case it was Edel) Edel. Not to mention how they have stated time and time again that it's the person that "feels the fate of death on their back".
So....we not going down that route?
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Someone is literally tied with Kumuko because of speed unequal, and smash characters only get to where they are due to MFTL speeds. It gets an asterisk, yeah, but we do.
That... means little without further context. Lesser God's Eye is able to negate resistance, and the Sword of Mind - which negates Gaia's Effect - was able to be analyzed as well.
Causality manipulation proceeds to ignore that. He outright states that Yoohwa Shin would need to break through his ability to become free.
Uh, you can't really equate the two verses' terminology.
"Magic" includes Idea Power willing things into existence, including the necronomicon and... just about everything else to do with folklore and religion, the creation of infinite pocket realities, and Han's skills can create Source Energy, which created the universe itself. Mind Techniques warp the laws of reality to function and are still considered skills. Likewise, things such as martial arts or someone's very soul having abilities is considered something he can steal. He also steals stats.
And all he needs is access to her pocket realities, and from then on he can easily go town on all of her clones and she herself with tenbillion speedamp.
It is shown against Follower of Darkness, where he ignores his mental barriers and literally says his Gamer skill cannot just be resisted, but in his discussion with Rasputin he outright states his ability forces causality to work in certain way while having some abilities that do in the background.
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Well, Lain isn't the strongest 7-A character.
Sion, Yoshifumi, Vat, and Rick can all be argued to be stronger than her. As for most of the 7-A characters, they only loosely scale to each other and we really have no idea about the hierarchy between them. Except for Sion.
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Well...
Mei's causality manip is useless because Han is acausal and specifically ignores that, and speed amp makes it impossible for her to land an attack. After that, Han just destroys with projectile spam.
Vahanato, again, is far worse off due to acausality, so Han can speed amp to hell and back, info analyze and incapacitate/power steal her.
Mei's causality manip is useless because Han is acausal and specifically ignores that, and speed amp makes it impossible for her to land an attack. After that, Han just destroys with projectile spam.
Vahanato, again, is far worse off due to acausality, so Han can speed amp to hell and back, info analyze and incapacitate/power steal her.
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Just going to ask but who are the strongest 2-As?
Oliver_de_jesus
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also ID have characters for 2-A
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There's also GetBackers, they're pretty haxed, but they have the issue of "they're just baseline 2-A".
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Dungeons and Dragons characters are just insane as I never expected them to be so powerful but now I know that a level 20 Bard can solo all of Dragon Ball with vicious mockery
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i put id there, i just didnt capitalize it
Oliver_de_jesus
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lol I thought it was an "idk"
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Anyone against Rakudai desperados taking the 3rd spot? (below WoD and Shinza)
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They can't do anything to Linley and he loses to some others 7A.
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Desperado is indeed a supernatural power/aspect, so Kumo Desu ga characters can probably null it from what I understand about their Pnull.
A god Zone by itself passively changes the laws of physics to make it impossible to properly use your abilities. And Dragon barrier is even worse from my understanding. It nulls anything supernatural, which Desperado effects would be considered outside of its verse.
And these are like 20 layers of Pnull. You need some pretty ludicrous feats to resist them.
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Wait Linely is 7-A. I mean it can always be a case of "He's a counter to desperado hax".
Nah, acausality.
Fate isn't bound by physics.
Or they need feats to nullify acausality.
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They wouldn't need to nullify the desperado's acausality, just the causality manipulation the desperado's use.
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Based on what, tho? You can't just have an ability claim "I null everything supernatural!" then apply it to any power. Do they null anything involving causality manipulation at any point?
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I mean the effects of the acausality, not the acausality itself.
Although, acausality is also pretty supernatural so I wouldn't doubt they can do that.
However; fate/causality manipulation are negged; since I'm 100% sure it exist in Kumo Desu ga and is considered supernatural. Well, at the very least that goes for fate manipulation, which Desperado causality manipulation seems innately tied to.
Although, acausality is also pretty supernatural so I wouldn't doubt they can do that.
However; fate/causality manipulation are negged; since I'm 100% sure it exist in Kumo Desu ga and is considered supernatural. Well, at the very least that goes for fate manipulation, which Desperado causality manipulation seems innately tied to.
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I don't know. I was just saying that nullifying the abilities that come with being a desperado doesn't require nullifying their state of being.
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If something's a supernatural ability then it's a supernatural ability. Given how verse equalization works; if I can already nullify a non-physical power (Like Fate or Probability), chances are I can nullify another one (Like Causality). To expand on this a bit. If you can powernull Kamehameha, we wouldn't say you couldn't powernull a Fireball Jutsu just because they're different abilities, we would equalize them as they're both physical supernatural attacks.
Now we can argue things that exist in one verse but the other verse treats them as intrinsically disconnected. Like how in Shield Hero, being able to nullify Magic doesn't mean you can nullify Soul Power, or Life-Force energy.
But in this situation there's work-arounds in that argument.
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Hey just going to ask but if a character is unbound by fate would that mean every tier of Fate hax wouldn't work on them?
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Short answer: No
Long answer: Take archie sonic for example, his fate hax is so good that even guys unbound by it aren't safe. So no
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Not how it works, no. That is what NLF tends to be applied to. "Supernatural" is way, way too broad to be accepted without further context.
Ignoring the false equivalency - energy and elemental manipulation are not at all the same as the difference between "supernatural" without further feats provided and warping causality itself - affecting fate powers would be a decent reason. What fate manipulation ability is affected?
It doesn't need to be proved that it isn't connected, it needs to be proved that it is.
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SBA already assumes that two powers of a similar system or make-up can be equaled.
I haven't seen Kumo Desu ga, so I wouldn't know. In fact, since the fate manipulation is used by something like the god of the verse, P'null has probably never been successfully used against hem before. Which has more to do with their resistance and less to do with the power itself.
My argument is that Fate Manipulation exists in the verse as a supernatural ability, just like probability manipulation, therefore it falls into the category of powers which can be P'nulled per the statements of P'null working against all supernatural powers.
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Yeah, but "supernatural" and "causality manipulation" are not similar in make-up without further proof.
I mean, you still need proof that they can powernull manipulation of cause and effect or at least something similar in effect.
Well, you need to prove that fate is one of such things. There are things in the verse the dudes can't powernull, so quotes or feats are needed.
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I think smurf hax is considered to work on lower d hax as long as they fall under whatever category that smurf can powernull. If the smurf is said to only be capable of powernulling abilities that are magic, then non-magic abilities should be fine (unless your Umeiko which decided that magic is just shit that isn't from a certain period of time).
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I mean, that against depends on the context of it.
Someone with the power to nullify all magic, as in something that uses mana to get an effect, might end up useless against HP magic because they have no energy source and just reality warp.
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If you want scans or examples of something, I can't give that, because I haven't seen any of the series.
But I don't think that proof is needed, given the profiles. The statement is flat-out "The field negates all magecraft, obviously including magic and skills,"
I feel like you're being really difficult for no reason.
Like TSB's are stated to nullify all ninjutsu. So do we need specific examples or statements for every single ninjustu ability to say they can nullify every single ninjutsu in the show? No!
There are plenty of characters who get a bunch of powers from being stated to have every ability in their verse. Do we need to see them use every single ability in the verse to verify this? No!
I don't understand why you have such a hardline position on this. Even Han seems to have some reasonings similar to this accepted on his profile, though I won't argue that, as his profile is like an essay.
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I've explained this before too, but everything is a result of acausality. They can control fate cus they transcend it, it's no more of a superpower than us interacting with 3D matter is. It is possible however to nullify just the causality alone given the right feats. And from any fictional verse i've seen there is only 1 type of power null that would work and that is:
Nanao Nakajima's power null from Talentless Nana (Munou na Nana).
His power null nullifies any talent and that includes your ability to circulate blood, your ability to recognize objects, your ability to breathe, your morality (your ability to deduce wrong from right), your fear, emotions.
Cus as he explains it "it's no more different than how monkeys can look at humans and think of our ability to communicate with words as a special ability".
It's really cool i know, but that type of power null would be good enough to nullify causality without nullifying the acausality.
Nanao Nakajima's power null from Talentless Nana (Munou na Nana).
His power null nullifies any talent and that includes your ability to circulate blood, your ability to recognize objects, your ability to breathe, your morality (your ability to deduce wrong from right), your fear, emotions.
Cus as he explains it "it's no more different than how monkeys can look at humans and think of our ability to communicate with words as a special ability".
It's really cool i know, but that type of power null would be good enough to nullify causality without nullifying the acausality.
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Welli know an another person who can do that it's thomas edison in fate can surely nullify the causality manipulation without nullifying the acausality, he have the ability to litteraly power null every supernatural thing the is not considered natural from the point of view of the ordinary people in fate. (If your existence is supernatural he can revert back it to being natural even supernatural event)
And well fate/causality and their manipulation is a supernatural thing in fate.
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