Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier 36

[Makenai]

I wonder why bypassing acausality type 4 means you're negate every fate/causality resistance or sound so potent and impressive. Type 4 basically is just operate on different system that their causality can't be manipulated in conventional way.

example :

A can't affect B because B exist on different system than A thus A didn't know how to manipulate it while C have resistance to Causality manip thus A cannot affect C because C has complete control of its own Causality.

In short, acausality Type 4 doesn't actually gave the owner resistance towards causality manip they're just can't be affected in conventional way since they operates on irregular system of causality.

With this, characters who bypassing Acausality type 4 doesn't make them able to ignore resistance to causality manip.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Characters who can affect people who (in rakudai's case) transcend causality will definitely ignore average resistance. I've already explained this many times but there are several arguments you can make here:

1. They affect a level of causality that is directly superior to whatever is being resisted (unless it's smurf cus at that point it'd be on the same level me thinks).
2. They can affect ppl with causality by manipulating a level of causality they do not resist

 

[Makenai]

What's superior causality even means anyway? Like what? You operates on a higher form of causality? Explain me what's higher form of causality means.

Acausality type 4 means operates on irregular system if Rakudai got that via "transcends fate" statement it could even be a hyperbole since fate manipulator in the series cannot affect them, in fact if you take that whole transcends fate statement literally means there's a contradiction since they also got "desperados can decided their own fate" statement, instead of a form of acausality they should've get straight resistance.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You operates on a higher form of causality?

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what that means.

Acausality type 4 means operates on irregular system if Rakudai got that via "transcends fate" statement it could even be a hyperbole since fate manipulator in the series cannot affect them, in fact if you take that whole transcends fate statement literally means there's a contradiction since they also got "desperados can decided their own fate" statement, instead of a form of acausality they should've get straight resistance.

Recent estimations say that i've explained this roughly 10'000 times already. So im not about to do it again.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what that means.

Yeah, i think the problem most people have with that is that "transcend" means "outside" more times than not, that's why transcending time or dimensions don't mean anything.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Which is why Rakudai doesn't have this off of (what i like to call) some random statement i dug up in the basement, but rather consistent statements, feats, examples, explanations. Also in the last BB thread i argued with Ultima a bit and he did have a point against the "transcendence can mean outside" and it was "outside doesn't mean it's not superior/doesn't contradict it".

 

[XDragnoir]

Why they aren't upgraded to type 5 is a mystery i will never understand.

 

[Everything12]

...that is easy to understand, Type 5 is being so completely cut off from Cause and Effect that you can't be affected by anything, it's pretty much invulnerability but including Hax. These clearly does not have the feats or statements to match that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah i think you need to be immune to any sort of fate/causality hax in verse to do that right? That along with breaking causality in the sense of "can arrive before starting" and other things like that i believe. Im not too knowledgeable on type 5 to say tho.

Although if y'all want to make Rakudai type 5 acausals i won't complain. They will most certainly get a lot more spots than they can right now if that happens.

 

[XDragnoir]

Type 5 is being so completely cut off from Cause and Effect that you can't be affected by anything,

Yeah i know what type 5 and 4 are, but Rakudai does not fit either, if normal causality is system A, type 4 is system B and 5 is no system at all, Rakudai is A+ due to being a higher order and not just a different order, so i really think there should be another type where these characters could be placed.

 

[Everything12]

Basically, they can describe themself as transcending Causality or existing on a higher-order of Casualty, but if they don't have the feats to match being completely outside Cause and Effect then they are not getting Type 5, and they shouldn't get another Type because Type 4 fits them perfectly based on the feats shown.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah i know what type 5 and 4 are, but Rakudai does not fit either, if normal causality is system A, type 4 is system B and 5 is no system at all, Rakudai is A+ due to being a higher order and not just a different order, so i really think there should be another type where these characters could be placed.

It's actually more like B+. Cus a system transcending another still means it's another system of causality.

 

[Tago238]

Wait where was that thread for the auditors vs Mimi?

 

[XDragnoir]

It's actually more like B+. Cus a system transcending another still means it's another system of causality.

Semantics.

 

[Tago238]

muh hyper causality

 

[XDragnoir]

Basically, they can describe themself as transcending Causality or existing on a higher-order of Casualty, but if they don't have the feats to match being completely outside Cause and Effect then they are not getting Type 5, and they shouldn't get another Type because Type 4 fits them perfectly based on the feats shown.

it clearly does not because Rakudai is the only verse i know (that does not have higher dimensions) where affecting a type 4 is a feat that bypass all forms of resistance.

 

[Everything12]

Eh no, affecting a Type 4 allowing them to bypass Fate related resistance is a thing of this Wiki and would be given to any Fate/Causality Manipulator in fiction that shows feats of affecting a Type 4, pretty sure several other verses do have such feats and are treated as such by the Wiki. I think some Cultivator Verse or another has several such characters but I can't say for certain as such verses aren't my field of expertise.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

it clearly does not because Rakudai is the only verse i know (that does not have higher dimensions) where affecting a type 4 is a feat that bypass all forms of resistance.

And DMC is the only verse where being hit by AZ is still listed as resistance to AZ despite the standard changing long ago.

The point is, just cus other ppl aren't going around arguing that it would be the case (affecting type 4 means you'd get around most non smurf resistances), doesn't mean you cannot argue for that.

You might be wondering what did this have to do with DMC having things that are denied by wiki standards. They have nothing in common i just had to throw a side jab at current DMC.

 

[XDragnoir]

Eh no, affecting a Type 4 allowing them to bypass Fate related resistance is a thing of this Wiki and would be given to any Fate/Causality Manipulator in fiction that shows feats of affecting a Type 4, pretty sure several other verses do have such frats and are treated as such by the Wiki.

I disagree, that's like saying erasing a non-existent allows to bypass all non-smurf resistances to EE, type 4 or in other words system B isn't stronger, it is just a irregular system and thus can't be affected by regular causality hax.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I disagree, that's like saying erasing a non-existent allows to bypass all non-smurf resistances to EE, type 4 or in other words system B isn't stronger, it is just a irregular system and thus can't be affected by regular causality hax.

You do realize how false this equivalency is right?

A more fair example would be "If you time hax someone who transcends time" that's more impressive than normal time hax.

 

[Everything12]

You do know that Rakudai's being able to bypass Fate/Causality resistance by affecting Acausality 4 is not actually from the verse and is actually based on the system you disagree with.

 

[XDragnoir]

You do realize how false this equivalency is right?

A more fair example would be "If you time hax someone who transcends time" that's more impressive than normal time hax.

Okay, so there is "someone who transcends time" and "someone who follows a different flow of time", change "time" with "causality" and we have two different things that are both under type 4 acausality when they could be their own types.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Someone who transcends time would be under the influence of a higher dimension of time (higher than the 4th dimension), which would in turn have its own flow.

They're not different things at their core, which is why they shouldn't be different types of acausality. The only difference is 1 is better than the other, but the core idea remains the same.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Just make the Vs thread(s) and/or CRTs my dudes.

 

[deonment]

Okay, so there is "someone who transcends time" and "someone who follows a different flow of time", change "time" with "causality" and we have two different things that are both under type 4 acausality when they could be their own types.

they both abide under different systems just one is budget type 5 and the other one is a just working and abiding and working by a system that is adjacent to normal causality, but as earl said they still have the same root in that they are both different systems of causality and affecting them should give different things and not just can bypass resistances to causalityhax but whatever

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway this whole show has gotten dull for real. How many times have we discussed this already?

Back to the topic at hand? Anyone got anything against Rakudai being above Kumoko, ID and Death Mage, but below WoD?

 

[deonment]

I have no idea about death mage, maybe quantum man could do stuff after the revisions but idk

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We not counting Quantum dude until the revisions are over. But from what im seeing the Death Mage boyo doesn't have any passives and no resistance to fate hax.

 

[deonment]

earl when someone doesnt have resistance to fate hax:

 

[deonment]

anyways time to go argue that type 4 in its entirety should just give you budget type 5 to hax and ap

 

[YungManzi]

Nah fam we really don't need that.

WoD 7-A are probably 2nd or 3rd (cus idk what the hell happens with them vs Aleister since he's smurf i think).
Rakudai then beats every other contender (and would beat WoD too if they didn't have resistance to smurf fate hax)
Then it's whoever wins between Death Mage and Instant Death along with Kumoko.

I don't see any 7-A WoD characters, unless they're coming up in revisions.

Edit:

Ah wait, found one Lyla.

 

[deonment]

I don't see any 7-A WoD characters, unless they're coming up in revisions.

Edit:

Ah wait, found one Lyla.

and baba yaga as well

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

and baba yaga as well

Baba yoga is High 7A

 

[deonment]

wait, the profile said 7-A though when i last read it

 

[YungManzi]

and baba yaga as well

That's High 7-A.

Also, Vandy sorta has a lot of passives which let him get so far in 7-A. Including his negation of magic and all kinds of energy including kinetic and his different types of pseudo-invisibility which make him completely imperceptible and more like a dream than a person.

Also Earl Idk about Rakudai characters taking top spot kek. There's a 7-A ID character that could counter the fate stuff.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I never said top spot. They cannot beat WoD, Aleister or Shinza.

Which ID character can counter them tho?

Vandi's null wouldn't work on desperado and the rest are useless against fate hax.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Death mage? They got nothing on rakudai smh.

Gufadgarn passively outranges them.

They incapactiate her by changing her fate into being unable to move or do certain things (basically controlling her actions through fate). In the case of ppl like Edel she has complete command over anything she damages (causality control), meaning she can order her to kill her own clones.

I mean, Edel would never get to the point of damaging Kumoko. If it's not passive, it is irrelevant.

And heck, even assuming that the mind control isn't resisted due to being causality stuff... it's still irrelevant. She can't command Kumoko to do anything to the clones, if she doesn't know the clones exist.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Gufadgarn passively outranges them.

Elaborate, you were there when i explained how Desperado hax isn't range related.

I mean, Edel would never get to the point of damaging Kumoko. If it's not passive, it is irrelevant.

Causality will damage you if you act against desperados to begin with.

And heck, even assuming that the mind control isn't resisted due to being causality stuff... it's still irrelevant. She can't command Kumoko to do anything to the clones, if she doesn't know the clones exist.

She can command her to do nothing though.

Why we arguing Edel tho? She ain't even in 7-A.

 

[YungManzi]

I never said top spot. They cannot beat WoD, Aleister or Shinza.

Which ID character can counter them tho?

Vandi's null wouldn't work on desperado and the rest are useless against fate hax.

I meant top spot over the other non-smurfs. We're not talking about Shinza or WoD .

 

[DontTalkDT]

Elaborate, you were there when i explained how Desperado hax isn't range related.

I don't remember that actually. To claim infinite range you sure need some very good justification.

In any case, Gufadgarn's main vessel is actually just a puppet that looks like an elf. In that puppet is (the entrance to) a giant pocket dimension. In the deepest part of that pocket dimension is a scorpion, which is Gufadgarn's true vessel. That however is also little more than a puppet. Gufadgarn is a god and as such in truth exists in a divine realm i.e. the astral plane.
So, proof that Desperado works over thousands of kilometers range, into realms outside of the normal 3 dimensional spacetime and unto other planes of existence at once.
Edit: I should also add that Gufadgarns pocket dimension is protected so that even the literal god of fate can't simply influence the things inside.

Causality will damage you if you act against desperados to begin with.

Well, in the beginning of the fight she just teleports away. In which way does it even "damage you"?

She can command her to do nothing though.

Why we arguing Edel tho? She ain't even in 7-A.

Which would trigger the clones.
And IDK. You brought her up in context of fighting. I only brought her up when I asked why Kumoko should have trouble against the rest if she already beat her.