Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier 36

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
how do they beat quantum man? or is that why they had the possibility of second
Nah, Quantum Man was disqualified in the tourney due to undergoing revisions. I don't think they can beat him.
(The battle of them vs Kumoko is also outdated)
 
19,838
1,451
Kumoko beat Edelweiss when they were both High 6-A. Why would she lose against those other guys?
Cus the other guys have other things besides fate manip at their disposal. They can literally say "stop" and it'll be a win condition cus Kumoko will be incapable of doing anything after that.

Back then Desperado passives were just "can you deal with fear" and i don't remember the result, but Kumoko did have some arguments going for her. Now desperados can do more. Edel can do more than she could before and Nene and Xiaoli can do even more than her.
 

Ricsi-viragosi

VS Battles
Retired
25,452
2,914
Also, Han now officially operates outside cause and effect, making precognition or causality manip useless against him, and making his absolute abilities (paralysis; fist that always lands regardless of spatial manip, distance or what else; enslaving mindhax; healing; etc.) be enforced by causality manipulation.

Not quite Rakudai yet, but getting there.
 
19,838
1,451
Also, Han now officially operates outside cause and effect, making precognition or causality manip useless against him, and making his absolute abilities (paralysis; fist that always lands regardless of spatial manip, distance or what else; enslaving mindhax; healing; etc.) be enforced by causality manipulation.

Not quite Rakudai yet, but getting there.
Yeah, he's getting there. He's got the type 4 down, all he needs is affecting type 4.

Rakudai really out here watching the boys grow. I love how Rakudai literally became top 5 material cus of a single plot device that ended up getting out of hand.
 

Ricsi-viragosi

VS Battles
Retired
25,452
2,914
I love how Rakudai literally became top 5 material cus of a single plot device that ended up getting out of hand.
That's how all good things start.

The Gamer went from "oh, you can just create matter out of nothing!" to "you are beyond cause and effect, having an infinite source of energy that lets you enforce your game mechanics regardless of logic all the while allowing you to create tens of thousands of golems per day each capable of creating tsar bomba explosions with a punch with factories because that's what idle games are like."
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
Cus the other guys have other things besides fate manip at their disposal. They can literally say "stop" and it'll be a win condition cus Kumoko will be incapable of doing anything after that.

Back then Desperado passives were just "can you deal with fear" and i don't remember the result, but Kumoko did have some arguments going for her. Now desperados can do more. Edel can do more than she could before and Nene and Xiaoli can do even more than her.
Doubt that will work, because of clones outside of range. You can make a match if you want, though.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
I don't do matches these days. But her clones require destruction of the original, which isn't necessary what's gonna happen here.
No they don't. They have an emergency protocol programmed in that activates if the original is incapacitated.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
Define incapacitated though. Cus it can have different definitions when comparing our version of "incap" to their version of incap.
She can't or doesn't give manual commands to the clones anymore or, IIRC, her condition drops below a certain threshold. That would be what qualifies as incapacitated.
So either they incapacitate her without breaking her connection, and she just manually directs the clones, or the clones do it themself.
 
19,838
1,451
They incapactiate her by changing her fate into being unable to move or do certain things (basically controlling her actions through fate). In the case of ppl like Edel she has complete command over anything she damages (causality control), meaning she can order her to kill her own clones.
 

Ned_the_outer_god

VS Battles
Retired
1,720
410
wod = World of Darkness? WTF? Since when they have 7As?
Here is 1
 
19,838
1,451
Tfw i leave the DMC thread and the 3 layers of regeneration negation and resistance to it from circular scaling gets accepted.

Actual pain.

Also why does Dante resist "fate hax that works on type 4 acausals like nero" when Nero ain't even acausal?
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,352
377
Eh, Dies Irae's 7-A characters wouldn't be able to beat WoD probably, however, Kajiri Kamui Kagura has 7-As that are pretty much High 1-A in nearly every way.
 
653
70
Tfw i leave the DMC thread and the 3 layers of regeneration negation and resistance to it from circular scaling gets accepted.

Actual pain.
Because the Vast majority agree with the proposals and you are the only disagreeing until you gived up.
Also why does Dante resist "fate hax that works on type 4 acausals like nero" when Nero ain't even acausal?
WTF? Nero is part demon he is acausal too.
 
19,838
1,451
WTF? Nero is part demon he is acausal too.
Neither dante nor Nero have type 4 acausality on their profiles.

Also the fact that Type 4 acausality went through (going by what you're saying) for "time passes slower at some places and faster at others" is actually astounding. This is quickly entering the realm of joke.

It's gonna be extra funny if the 4D demon energy went through.
 
19,838
1,451
Different flow of time
Literally time can pass slower or faster depending on where you're at
Demons are stated to exist beyond the flow of time
A specific demon that is actually a god tier of the verse
Resists fate hax
Self explanatory
 
Last edited:

Duedate8898

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
1,839
464
Well I haven't been participating in VS threads for a while now, so if it wished I wouldn't be against helping out in the 7-A tournament if others are up to start back up again.
 

Ricsi-viragosi

VS Battles
Retired
25,452
2,914
With all the higher D stuff, not sure how balanced it would be, but I guess I could bite.

QM is at least hard to kill if nothing else. Han's new causality manip would probably help as well, though I doubt he can make it.
 
5,277
542
With all the higher D stuff, not sure how balanced it would be, but I guess I could bite.

QM is at least hard to kill if nothing else. Han's new causality manip would probably help as well, though I doubt he can make it.
Has there been a sudden influx of smurfs?

There was only like 2-3 before.
 

WeeklyBattles

VS Battles
Content Moderator
51,037
6,082
With Tezzert's updat and stuff lik Xenagos and the upcoming aditons for Tibalt and Teferi im inclined to say change Liliana to 'Characters from Magic: the Gathering'
 
5,277
542
Speaking of 7-A 2nd place would probably go to Death Mage characters and 3rd place would be a three way tie between Kumoko, ID characters, and Aleister.

At least, from how I remember the tourney going.
 
19,838
1,451
Looks like we may need another 7-A Tourni since WoD has decided to show up fashionably late.
Nah fam we really don't need that.

WoD 7-A are probably 2nd or 3rd (cus idk what the hell happens with them vs Aleister since he's smurf i think).
Rakudai then beats every other contender (and would beat WoD too if they didn't have resistance to smurf fate hax)
Then it's whoever wins between Death Mage and Instant Death along with Kumoko.
 
53
1
I wonder why bypassing acausality type 4 means you're negate every fate/causality resistance or sound so potent and impressive. Type 4 basically is just operate on different system that their causality can't be manipulated in conventional way.

example :

A can't affect B because B exist on different system than A thus A didn't know how to manipulate it while C have resistance to Causality manip thus A cannot affect C because C has complete control of its own Causality.

In short, acausality Type 4 doesn't actually gave the owner resistance towards causality manip they're just can't be affected in conventional way since they operates on irregular system of causality.

With this, characters who bypassing Acausality type 4 doesn't make them able to ignore resistance to causality manip.
 
19,838
1,451
Characters who can affect people who (in rakudai's case) transcend causality will definitely ignore average resistance. I've already explained this many times but there are several arguments you can make here:

1. They affect a level of causality that is directly superior to whatever is being resisted (unless it's smurf cus at that point it'd be on the same level me thinks).
2. They can affect ppl with causality by manipulating a level of causality they do not resist
 
53
1
What's superior causality even means anyway? Like what? You operates on a higher form of causality? Explain me what's higher form of causality means.

Acausality type 4 means operates on irregular system if Rakudai got that via "transcends fate" statement it could even be a hyperbole since fate manipulator in the series cannot affect them, in fact if you take that whole transcends fate statement literally means there's a contradiction since they also got "desperados can decided their own fate" statement, instead of a form of acausality they should've get straight resistance.
 
19,838
1,451
You operates on a higher form of causality?
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what that means.

Acausality type 4 means operates on irregular system if Rakudai got that via "transcends fate" statement it could even be a hyperbole since fate manipulator in the series cannot affect them, in fact if you take that whole transcends fate statement literally means there's a contradiction since they also got "desperados can decided their own fate" statement, instead of a form of acausality they should've get straight resistance.
Recent estimations say that i've explained this roughly 10'000 times already. So im not about to do it again.
 
19,838
1,451
Which is why Rakudai doesn't have this off of (what i like to call) some random statement i dug up in the basement, but rather consistent statements, feats, examples, explanations. Also in the last BB thread i argued with Ultima a bit and he did have a point against the "transcendence can mean outside" and it was "outside doesn't mean it's not superior/doesn't contradict it".
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,352
377
...that is easy to understand, Type 5 is being so completely cut off from Cause and Effect that you can't be affected by anything, it's pretty much invulnerability but including Hax. These clearly does not have the feats or statements to match that.
 
Last edited:
19,838
1,451
Yeah i think you need to be immune to any sort of fate/causality hax in verse to do that right? That along with breaking causality in the sense of "can arrive before starting" and other things like that i believe. Im not too knowledgeable on type 5 to say tho.

Although if y'all want to make Rakudai type 5 acausals i won't complain. They will most certainly get a lot more spots than they can right now if that happens.
 
3,895
481
Type 5 is being so completely cut off from Cause and Effect that you can't be affected by anything,
Yeah i know what type 5 and 4 are, but Rakudai does not fit either, if normal causality is system A, type 4 is system B and 5 is no system at all, Rakudai is A+ due to being a higher order and not just a different order, so i really think there should be another type where these characters could be placed.
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,352
377
Basically, they can describe themself as transcending Causality or existing on a higher-order of Casualty, but if they don't have the feats to match being completely outside Cause and Effect then they are not getting Type 5, and they shouldn't get another Type because Type 4 fits them perfectly based on the feats shown.
 
19,838
1,451
Yeah i know what type 5 and 4 are, but Rakudai does not fit either, if normal causality is system A, type 4 is system B and 5 is no system at all, Rakudai is A+ due to being a higher order and not just a different order, so i really think there should be another type where these characters could be placed.
It's actually more like B+. Cus a system transcending another still means it's another system of causality.
 
3,895
481
Basically, they can describe themself as transcending Causality or existing on a higher-order of Casualty, but if they don't have the feats to match being completely outside Cause and Effect then they are not getting Type 5, and they shouldn't get another Type because Type 4 fits them perfectly based on the feats shown.
it clearly does not because Rakudai is the only verse i know (that does not have higher dimensions) where affecting a type 4 is a feat that bypass all forms of resistance.
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,352
377
Eh no, affecting a Type 4 allowing them to bypass Fate related resistance is a thing of this Wiki and would be given to any Fate/Causality Manipulator in fiction that shows feats of affecting a Type 4, pretty sure several other verses do have such feats and are treated as such by the Wiki. I think some Cultivator Verse or another has several such characters but I can't say for certain as such verses aren't my field of expertise.
 
19,838
1,451
it clearly does not because Rakudai is the only verse i know (that does not have higher dimensions) where affecting a type 4 is a feat that bypass all forms of resistance.
And DMC is the only verse where being hit by AZ is still listed as resistance to AZ despite the standard changing long ago. 👀

The point is, just cus other ppl aren't going around arguing that it would be the case (affecting type 4 means you'd get around most non smurf resistances), doesn't mean you cannot argue for that.

You might be wondering what did this have to do with DMC having things that are denied by wiki standards. They have nothing in common i just had to throw a side jab at current DMC.
 
3,895
481
Eh no, affecting a Type 4 allowing them to bypass Fate related resistance is a thing of this Wiki and would be given to any Fate/Causality Manipulator in fiction that shows feats of affecting a Type 4, pretty sure several other verses do have such frats and are treated as such by the Wiki.
I disagree, that's like saying erasing a non-existent allows to bypass all non-smurf resistances to EE, type 4 or in other words system B isn't stronger, it is just a irregular system and thus can't be affected by regular causality hax.
 
19,838
1,451
I disagree, that's like saying erasing a non-existent allows to bypass all non-smurf resistances to EE, type 4 or in other words system B isn't stronger, it is just a irregular system and thus can't be affected by regular causality hax.
You do realize how false this equivalency is right?

A more fair example would be "If you time hax someone who transcends time" that's more impressive than normal time hax.
 

Everything12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
3,352
377
You do know that Rakudai's being able to bypass Fate/Causality resistance by affecting Acausality 4 is not actually from the verse and is actually based on the system you disagree with.
 
3,895
481
You do realize how false this equivalency is right?

A more fair example would be "If you time hax someone who transcends time" that's more impressive than normal time hax.
Okay, so there is "someone who transcends time" and "someone who follows a different flow of time", change "time" with "causality" and we have two different things that are both under type 4 acausality when they could be their own types.
 
19,838
1,451
Someone who transcends time would be under the influence of a higher dimension of time (higher than the 4th dimension), which would in turn have its own flow.

They're not different things at their core, which is why they shouldn't be different types of acausality. The only difference is 1 is better than the other, but the core idea remains the same.
 
455
66
Okay, so there is "someone who transcends time" and "someone who follows a different flow of time", change "time" with "causality" and we have two different things that are both under type 4 acausality when they could be their own types.
they both abide under different systems just one is budget type 5 and the other one is a just working and abiding and working by a system that is adjacent to normal causality, but as earl said they still have the same root in that they are both different systems of causality and affecting them should give different things and not just can bypass resistances to causalityhax but whatever
 
19,838
1,451
Anyway this whole show has gotten dull for real. How many times have we discussed this already?

Back to the topic at hand? Anyone got anything against Rakudai being above Kumoko, ID and Death Mage, but below WoD?
 
19,838
1,451
We not counting Quantum dude until the revisions are over. But from what im seeing the Death Mage boyo doesn't have any passives and no resistance to fate hax.
:) :)
 
455
66
earl when someone doesnt have resistance to fate hax:
 
5,277
542
Nah fam we really don't need that.

WoD 7-A are probably 2nd or 3rd (cus idk what the hell happens with them vs Aleister since he's smurf i think).
Rakudai then beats every other contender (and would beat WoD too if they didn't have resistance to smurf fate hax)
Then it's whoever wins between Death Mage and Instant Death along with Kumoko.
I don't see any 7-A WoD characters, unless they're coming up in revisions.

Edit:

Ah wait, found one Lyla.
 
5,277
542
and baba yaga as well
That's High 7-A.

Also, Vandy sorta has a lot of passives which let him get so far in 7-A. Including his negation of magic and all kinds of energy including kinetic and his different types of pseudo-invisibility which make him completely imperceptible and more like a dream than a person.

Also Earl Idk about Rakudai characters taking top spot kek. There's a 7-A ID character that could counter the fate stuff.
 
19,838
1,451
I never said top spot. They cannot beat WoD, Aleister or Shinza.

Which ID character can counter them tho?

Vandi's null wouldn't work on desperado and the rest are useless against fate hax.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
Death mage? They got nothing on rakudai smh.
Gufadgarn passively outranges them.

They incapactiate her by changing her fate into being unable to move or do certain things (basically controlling her actions through fate). In the case of ppl like Edel she has complete command over anything she damages (causality control), meaning she can order her to kill her own clones.
I mean, Edel would never get to the point of damaging Kumoko. If it's not passive, it is irrelevant.

And heck, even assuming that the mind control isn't resisted due to being causality stuff... it's still irrelevant. She can't command Kumoko to do anything to the clones, if she doesn't know the clones exist.
 
19,838
1,451
Gufadgarn passively outranges them.
Elaborate, you were there when i explained how Desperado hax isn't range related.

I mean, Edel would never get to the point of damaging Kumoko. If it's not passive, it is irrelevant.
Causality will damage you if you act against desperados to begin with.

And heck, even assuming that the mind control isn't resisted due to being causality stuff... it's still irrelevant. She can't command Kumoko to do anything to the clones, if she doesn't know the clones exist.
She can command her to do nothing though.

Why we arguing Edel tho? She ain't even in 7-A.
 

DontTalkDT

A Fossil at This Point
VS Battles
Sysop
Consultant
4,082
1,653
Elaborate, you were there when i explained how Desperado hax isn't range related.
I don't remember that actually. To claim infinite range you sure need some very good justification.

In any case, Gufadgarn's main vessel is actually just a puppet that looks like an elf. In that puppet is (the entrance to) a giant pocket dimension. In the deepest part of that pocket dimension is a scorpion, which is Gufadgarn's true vessel. That however is also little more than a puppet. Gufadgarn is a god and as such in truth exists in a divine realm i.e. the astral plane.
So, proof that Desperado works over thousands of kilometers range, into realms outside of the normal 3 dimensional spacetime and unto other planes of existence at once.
Edit: I should also add that Gufadgarns pocket dimension is protected so that even the literal god of fate can't simply influence the things inside.

Causality will damage you if you act against desperados to begin with.
Well, in the beginning of the fight she just teleports away. In which way does it even "damage you"?

She can command her to do nothing though.

Why we arguing Edel tho? She ain't even in 7-A.
Which would trigger the clones.
And IDK. You brought her up in context of fighting. I only brought her up when I asked why Kumoko should have trouble against the rest if she already beat her.
 
Top