Tomura shigraki tries to get another Pokemon

[Everything12]

Where does it say this exception?

You can't restrict any abilities that aren't optional or don't lead to a key change.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Where does it say this?

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Stomp how? Shigaraki has plausibly achievable win conditions, even if he isn't the more likely participant to win, right?

Shigaraki's win condition is physical contact, which is near-impossible in a fight against a special-attacker flying-type Pokémon that can spam amps and debuffs. Shigaraki's wincon is just far too unlikely for this to be a fair fight, thus, a stomp match.

 

[Imaginym]

Charizard goes into a different tier after 1 or 2 stat boosts?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Charizard goes into a different tier after 1 or 2 stat boosts?

Yes, he becomes 6-C after just one boost, I believe.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

You can't restrict any abilities that aren't optional or don't lead to a key change.

Why did you say "regardless if they change Tiers" then?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

There's also the fact Charizard's profile is outdated as hell. He is missing a good chunk of his abilities, and it should be noted that he can go up to 4x his normal AP and speed through buffs. Same applies to other 'mons.

 

[Everything12]

An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one

This?

You misunderstand this is only for stuff like "3-C, 3-A with Kamahameha" or transforming into a Super Saiyan being another key.

Statistic changing abilities aren't included in this normally regardless if they cause the user to grow to a higher Tier.

 

[Baken384]

Shigaraki can't handle Chadizard's bulging amps

 

[Kingofwolves999]

This?

You misunderstand this is only for stuff like "3-C, 3-A with Kamahameha" or transforming into a Super Saiyan being another key.

And Charizard (as well as all Pokémon) should be “6-C with [insert boost here]”

Their profiles are outdated, as was noted in this thread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This?

You misunderstand this is only for stuff like "3-C, 3-A with Kamahameha" or transforming into a Super Saiyan being another key.

How is that different from "High 7-A, 6-C with Statistics Amplification"?

 

[Everything12]

And Charizard (as well as all Pokémon) should be “6-C with [insert boost here]”

Their profiles are outdated, as was noted in this thread.

Nope, we don't put regular stat bossting in the Tiers like that regardless of it changing Tiers and you can't restrict them either.

 

[Imaginym]

I think there's another problem. Specifically, with the argument Charizard would go for debuff & then fire spam.

Charizard Pokédex: stats, moves, evolution & locations

Pokédex entry for #6 Charizard containing stats, moves learned, evolution chain, location and more!

pokemondb.net

"CHARIZARD flies around the sky in search of powerful opponents. It breathes fire of such great heat that it melts anything. However, it never turns its fiery breath on any opponent weaker than itself."

Charizard purposely weakening an opponent THEN spamming fire breath, when it seeks out powerful opponents & it's stated that it doesn't torch those weaker than itself seems a little OoC. Maybe if it considered them a challenge even after weakening, but wouldn't it want more challenge? Maybe it might have the sense to do so or the experience, or maybe it'd be prideful & not do so anyway.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

What? By its very nature, if the amp jumps you into another tier, it should be noted in the tier section.

 

[Everything12]

Such noted amp jumps are only for special techniques and transformations, not for a Statistics Amplification that just happens to push someone close to the Tiers unbound into the next Tier, especially not if it has to be used repeatedly to make that jump.

 

[Imaginym]

Such noted amp jumps are only for special techniques and transformations, not for a Statistics Amplification that just happens to push someone close to the Tiers unbound into the next Tier, especially not if it has to be used repeatedly to make that jump.

Well, from what I've told, a stat boost of 1 stage is enough to make the jump; In the absence of other multipliers, the main Pokemon games have every "stage" of stat boost, boost by 50% of base.
Ex: If it's 512 at no buffs, no debuffs (Stat Boost Stage 0), +1 to ATK would add 256, +2 would add another 256, etc.

Is Charizard's rating close enough to a tier jump that 50% of what it currently is puts it into the next tier?

 

[FinePoint]

Such noted amp jumps are only for special techniques and transformations, not for a Statistics Amplification that just happens to push someone close to the Tiers unbound into the next Tier, especially not if it has to be used repeatedly to make that jump.

You're saying a lot of stuff not said in the versus rules.
If there are additional things not listed, then they should be listed.

The way it's currently listed, it implies literally anything which pushes them to a new tier can be restricted.

 

[Everything12]

Why they can't be restricted? Because we want to keep as few restrictions on a character's abilities as possible so as to be as authentic a representation as possible in matches.

Why the stat amps aren't noted? Because such notes in the Tier section is only for special abilities to make it clear that their power is beyond what the characters can normally output.

As for the person above, they aren't listed because all I'm doing is clarifying the rules because you people are preciving them in a way they aren't meant to be interpreted.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

An amp is a technique. So what makes Charizard's amp not one?

 

[FinePoint]

As for the person above, they aren't listed because all I'm doing is clarifying the rules because you people are preciving them in a way they aren't meant to be interpreted.

You say that as if it's our fault it's vague.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Well, from what I've told, a stat boost of 1 stage is enough to make the jump; In the absence of other multipliers, the main Pokemon games have every "stage" of stat boost, boost by 50% of base.
Ex: If it's 512 at no buffs, no debuffs (Stat Boost Stage 0), +1 to ATK would add 256, +2 would add another 256, etc.

Is Charizard's rating close enough to a tier jump that 50% of what it currently is puts it into the next tier?

Yeah, his AP is 3.9 gigatons and 50% of that is 1.95. the total is 5.85, which puts him into Island level

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, his AP is 3.9 gigatons and 50% of that is 1.95. the total is 5.85, which puts him into Island level

Thanks for the clarification.

Why they can't be restricted? Because we want to keep as few restrictions on a character's abilities as possible so as to be as authentic a representation as possible in matches.

Why the stat amps aren't noted? Because such notes in the Tier section is only for special abilities to make it clear that their power is beyond what the characters can normally output.

As for the person above, they aren't listed because all I'm doing is clarifying the rules because you people are preciving them in a way they aren't meant to be interpreted.

I feel that the rules should have some elaboration given then, to prevent further similar misinterpretations such as this.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

This was decided as a stomp earlier because Shigaraki's win Condition was so unrealistic. As Charizard's AP meant that even without Buffs and/or debuffs, he one shot's shigaraki

 

[Everything12]

An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one

This rule here is for this

Because such notes in the Tier section is only for special abilities to make it clear that their power is beyond what the characters can normally output.

Basically it's to make it so two characters with 5-A stats can't have one of them use their Ultimate attacks that just blows up the galaxy.

 

[FinePoint]

This rule here is for this


Basically it's to make it so two characters with 5-A stats can't have one of them use their Ultimate attacks that just blows up the galaxy.

What is the distinction between an ultimate attack that blows up a galaxy, and a stat-buff which allows them to blow up a galaxy?
If the distinction is simply "One is listed in the tier section," it seems arbitrary and subject to inaccuracy based purely on how people design the profiles.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think there's another problem. Specifically, with the argument Charizard would go for debuff & then fire spam.

Charizard Pokédex: stats, moves, evolution & locations

Pokédex entry for #6 Charizard containing stats, moves learned, evolution chain, location and more!

pokemondb.net

"CHARIZARD flies around the sky in search of powerful opponents. It breathes fire of such great heat that it melts anything. However, it never turns its fiery breath on any opponent weaker than itself."

Taking this at face value means Charizard will still use other ranged attacks defeat weaker opponents.

 

[Imaginym]

Taking this at face value means Charizard will still use other ranged attacks defeat weaker opponents.

Other Ranged Attacks: Air Slash, Dragon Breath, Dragon Rage, (Fiery, so maybe not?), Heat Wave, Overheat (Both sometimes depicted as Fiery breath in the Anime, IIRC?), & from the Egg Moves: Air Cutter, Ancient Power, Dragon Pulse. If we're including Move Tutor Moves, Scale Shot & Scorching Sands are also possibilities.

Unsure what it'd go for in this case, though.

 

[Arceus0x]

What is the distinction between an ultimate attack that blows up a galaxy, and a stat-buff which allows them to blow up a galaxy?
If the distinction is simply "One is listed in the tier section," it seems arbitrary and subject to inaccuracy based purely on how people design the profiles.

The difference is that thr stat buff doesn't let them blow up a galxy but is rather a buff that makes them 2x stronger.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I think you missed the point...

 

[FinePoint]

The difference is that thr stat buff doesn't let them blow up a galxy but is rather a buff that makes them 2x stronger.

I was just building off their example. Either way there's situations where both of them move the character up a tier or more.
What makes statistics amplification different from other abilities which achieve the same practical effect?

 

[Arceus0x]

Other Ranged Attacks: Air Slash, Dragon Breath, Dragon Rage, (Fiery, so maybe not?), Heat Wave, Overheat (Both sometimes depicted as Fiery breath in the Anime, IIRC?), & from the Egg Moves: Air Cutter, Ancient Power, Dragon Pulse. If we're including Move Tutor Moves, Scale Shot & Scorching Sands are also possibilities.

Unsure what it'd go for in this case, though.

I mean, Charizard doesn't go for close combat often, he indeed mostly just uses range spam and sometimes just uses wing attack when needed. In this case Charizard is fighting a weaker opponent so it wouldn't take him much to attack with range.
Also we gotta remember that he's smart. If he sees anything decaying within his vicinity he's getting tf out of there and spamming projectiles.
The moves Imaginyum listed are even worse than Flamethrower. Overheat is basically a better flamethrower half the time, heat wave is AOE heat attack Dragon breath paralyzes people and Dragon rage is a projectile that deals the same damage every time.

The air moves are all semi-invisible and pack the same punch, just without the heat. All in all, Shigaraki gets hit a few too many times and his regen won't keep up. He had issues living throug Endeavor's heat and that guy had less power.

 

[Arceus0x]

I was just building off their example. Either way there's situations where both of them move the character up a tier or more.
What makes statistics amplification different from other abilities which achieve the same practical effect?

I think it may be usage.
Like they don't always use it in that key and they also get some new statistic from it. For example, Goku likes to fight in his base form and he doesn't always go into his ssj form, thus we can restrict it. On the other hand, Lucario can flex this one time and that makes him 2x stronger. It's a normal move for him in base form and him getting tier buffs from it is basically coincidence, thus making it something unrestrictable.

 

[FinePoint]

I think it may be usage.
Like they don't always use it in that key and they also get some new statistic from it. For example, Goku likes to fight in his base form and he doesn't always go into his ssj form, thus we can restrict it. On the other hand, Lucario can flex this one time and that makes him 2x stronger. It's a normal move for him in base form and him getting tier buffs from it is basically coincidence, thus making it something unrestrictable.

Maybe, but none of that is mentioned in the rules.
That's all I'd like, is for things to actually be written down if they're going to be enforced.

 

[Arceus0x]

Maybe, but none of that is mentioned in the rules.
That's all I'd like, is for things to actually be written down if they're going to be enforced.

i do agree with that. I'd say something like:

"Statistic amplification techniques which fall under the normal moveset of a character and aren't achieved via a transformation and/or specific technique that stands out from the rest of the moveset are not allowed to be restricted"