Toei Tokusatsu Cosmology Update (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Metal Heroes, etc.)

[Aksborx]

bump

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree

 

[Lonkitt]

I brought up the Toei Spider-Man thing with you (Ovens) and Zeed back then, so I definitely agree with that and everything else

I always want everyone here to know, regardless of what Takuya scales to, 9-B has always been horrendous downplay smh. This isn't even a bit, put respect on his name

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Omazio2019]

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[GrayCraft_Dragon]

We need to get back to this...

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

RIP

 

[Kamenriderblaze]

RIP

What happen ?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We're all just waiting on Ultima.

@Ultima_Reality

 

[Infinitinet]

I agree.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, for the general Real World shenanigans: I'll say that Hatte's world, in particular, is what's most clearly fine here. It's explicitly depicted as encompassing both the Delusion World and the "Real World" of the Akibarangers, instead of as just another world parallel to them, and from what I gather, Hatte is portrayed as effectively all-powerful relative to the fiction. Seems good enough. The only potential hang-up would be the characters crossing over from their world to Hatte's, but it seems like the implication is that Hatte himself just put portals to the real world in there?

The Saber world seems to be a weirder case, as I brought up to Ovens off-site. To quote the blog:

"What about Saber seeing the other Kamen Riders and Super Sentai as fiction?" Well it was already established in the movie that Saber himself is part of a story written in the same forbidden books as the other Kamen Riders, dismissing the notion that he is in any way transcendent over them.

So, it looks like an argument is being made that his world isn't actually transcendent over the things he supposedly sees as fiction, because it itself is actually part of said fiction, but then the blog just proposes that reality to be 1-A anyway? Shotaro's biography world seems fine, though, on the other hand.

I'm pretty suspicious on Ideon, though, I won't lie, given this:

A part of Ideon exists overlapping with the Human World known as the Brain Layer. This layer can only be viewed using the special sunglasses equipment the Donbrothers wear.

So there's a part of Ideon that's directly overlapping with the human world (And thus is presumably comparable to it in size)? This is pretty obviously problematic, since a 1-A realm can't exactly have actual, literal chunks of it that aren't 1-A. From what I can gather, this part of Ideon overlapping with the human world is itself what's seen through a pair of special glasses. This special vision is itself what the "Ideon is the real world" thing is said in reference to, it seems, so this makes me think that the comparison with Plato's World of Forms is very, very loose (That much is obvious, since Ideon wouldn't be anything at all like the actual concept), and that it being more real than the human world isn't to be taken that literally.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So, it looks like an argument is being made that his world isn't actually transcendent over the things he supposedly sees as fiction, because it itself is actually part of said fiction, but then the blog just proposes that reality to be 1-A anyway?

The argument is that Wonder Almighty wouldn't be more real than Shotaro's world but would similar to Ideon in that it is a platonic world of forms. It contains all the concepts, ideas, and stories that make up the world of Saber, and should thus transcend it as reality does to fiction. However it is encompassed by the Kamen Rider Saber "fiction" that is the Forbidden Book. As we saw in Super Hero Senki, each season is encompassed in individual Forbidden Books that encapsulate their season. It's why the Ichigo that appears in SHS is the original Ichigo, and not the New 1 we are used to seeing. He was pulled from a point in his story before he got New 1.

That is why the stories of each season is considered 1 layer above baseline 1-A, because it can encompass constructs like Ideon and Wonder Almighty.

So there's a part of Ideon that's directly overlapping with the human world (And thus is presumably comparable to it in size)? This is pretty obviously problematic, since a 1-A realm can't exactly have actual, literal chunks of it that aren't 1-A. From what I can gather, this part of Ideon overlapping with the human world is itself what's seen through a pair of special glasses. This special vision is itself what the "Ideon is the real world" thing is said in reference to, it seems, so this makes me think that the comparison with Plato's World of Forms is very, very loose (That much is obvious, since Ideon wouldn't be anything at all like the actual concept), and that it being more real than the human world isn't to be taken that literally.

From the producer's diagram you can already see that Ideon (blue part) is very much NOT a part of the human world (orange part). The Brain Layer is just a tiny part of Ideon itself that overlaps with the human world. To put it in a way you personally understand, think of SCP-3125 being vastly bigger than the Human Noosphere and just a fraction of its true size is actually coming into contact with the Human Noosphere.

Also when a Hitosuki is destroyed in the human world, they grow until they appear in Ideon. Remember, Hitosuki are created by negative thoughts, so they are literally growing into giant negative thoughts when they enter Ideon. This is also the main reason why the Donbrothers have mecha forms. They literally need to grow into larger ideas to fight evenly in Ideon.

 

[Nnnnnnnnnnnnnmmmmm]

So, for the general Real World shenanigans: I'll say that Hatte's world, in particular, is what's most clearly fine here. It's explicitly depicted as encompassing both the Delusion World and the "Real World" of the Akibarangers, instead of as just another world parallel to them, and from what I gather, Hatte is portrayed as effectively all-powerful relative to the fiction. Seems good enough. The only potential hang-up would be the characters crossing over from their world to Hatte's, but it seems like the implication is that Hatte himself just put portals to the real world in there?

The Saber world seems to be a weirder case, as I brought up to Ovens off-site. To quote the blog:



So, it looks like an argument is being made that his world isn't actually transcendent over the things he supposedly sees as fiction, because it itself is actually part of said fiction, but then the blog just proposes that reality to be 1-A anyway? Shotaro's biography world seems fine, though, on the other hand.

I'm pretty suspicious on Ideon, though, I won't lie, given this:



So there's a part of Ideon that's directly overlapping with the human world (And thus is presumably comparable to it in size)? This is pretty obviously problematic, since a 1-A realm can't exactly have actual, literal chunks of it that aren't 1-A. From what I can gather, this part of Ideon overlapping with the human world is itself what's seen through a pair of special glasses. This special vision is itself what the "Ideon is the real world" thing is said in reference to, it seems, so this makes me think that the comparison with Plato's World of Forms is very, very loose (That much is obvious, since Ideon wouldn't be anything at all like the actual concept), and that it being more real than the human world isn't to be taken that literally.

Hi. I would like to ask you a question. if a character sees the hierarchy of high 1-A as a dream or story, will he have +1 layer to high 1-A or high 1-A+?

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

From the producer's diagram you can already see that Ideon (blue part) is very much NOT a part of the human world (orange part). The Brain Layer is just a tiny part of Ideon itself that overlaps with the human world. To put it in a way you personally understand, think of SCP-3125 being vastly bigger than the Human Noosphere and just a fraction of its true size is actually coming into contact with the Human Noosphere.

Yeah, I've gathered as much. The issue is that, to my understanding, the Brain Layer is comparable in size to the human world, and yet it's also the part of Ideon that the "It's more real than the human world" statement is referring to. This makes me think that it being "more real" isn't really talking about any kind of transcendence, just articulating the fact that it's what's "underneath" the human world. From what I gather, the whole thing is supposed to be a reference to They Live, so, seems to check out.

As I said, though, the real worlds being 1-A is fine.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Alright I guess only Ishinomori's Biography world and Hatte/Heisei Generations Forever's real world will get 1-A.

I'll apply the 1-A keys to the relevant profiles that scale, and I'll make a separate thread for the reworked scaling and cosmology blog.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I have decided to apply the changes in the next thread.

Since we have the approval here, I will apply everything wholesale when the next thread is made.

Thanks everyone who participated. I will now close the thread.