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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread

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They are a really bad matchup, which Kinuhata says is because they are both nitrogen users.

"The moment you couldn't kill me, the winner was already decided. My defense is 360 degrees all-around, and it activates automatically without me having to want it to. If you can't pierce through the armor, it's the same no matter how many times you try. No matter what the method is, or the angle, you won't even hurt my super soft eyeballs...the method of using a large amount of nitrogen to pierce through a target like wet paper can work if it were ordinary steel, but it's super weak when it goes up against my armor, since it's also made of nitrogen."

Still, taking several thousands of weakened Bomber Lances to the face and getting blown away several hundreds of meters into a water tank seems like it would be above Small Building level, and if they are both LV 4 nitrogen users with one focused in offense and another in defense, it seems logical to put Kinuhata at Building level Durability just like base Umidori is at Building AP. Though I should probably change her AP to "at least Wall level (Easily destroying walls), possibly higher (Can knock away Umidori's bomber lances)" even if we don't change her Durability; I only put it as "possibly Small Building level" because I had forgotten about the poor match comment and I thought Umidori would just be Small Building.

We should probably remove that grimoire since it's not confirmed to be a part of Index's grimoires. Baopuzi/Houbokushi should also probably go since it's featless, it would make more sense to add the Necronomicon to both of their pages since we know what kind of spells that grimoire has inside. Side-note, checking the wiki I realized Index has the Lemegeto, demon summoning Index when? Just kidding.
 
Getting blown away several hundred meters is actually wall level.

Well, I guess the durability thing can be considered for possibly building level durability. And the AP is fine with me as well.
 
Speaking of Fiamma, should we remove the "minor" in resistance to mind/soul attacks, iirc his body and mind was literally separated from his soul.
 
Do we have a scale for those kind of resistances anyway? Soul/mind attacks could be "Alter your mind/body", "Damage you because it damages your soul/mind, not your physical body", "Rip soul/mind out of body" or "Erase sould/mind". I'm guessing resisting the first and second could be called "minor resistance". Then the third would be "resistance" and the fourth "large resistance" or outright "immune".
 
What makes it difficult to have a scale here, is that both quantity and quality can matter. Resisting a mind attack from someone that can mind attack a whole planets population at once altering their minds might be more impressive then resisting a mind attack from someone that can damage your mind, but only 1 person at once.

Well, one can of course always discuss such things in a forum thread.
 
Yeah, it would be harder to make than the Regenerationn scale. But anyway, I think I agree with removing the "minor" from Fiamma's page, most pages I've seen only say resistance without mentioning how much or a feat for it.

Side-note, I replaced Yumiya's image with the Haimura design that was just released. There's another design post-injuries and seemingly after AC's medicine fixed her face like Kakine said, but it's just Rakko in a different pose with an eyepatch and new boots, so it seems unnecessary.
 
@LazyHunter: To the Xochitl page you made. What is the reasoning for the small building level AP Pre-Grimoire without Mixcoatl?
 
That's her AP with Mixcoatl: Small Building level with its missiles and higher with the self-destruct. Maybe I should have worded it differently
 
Oh I see. From reading the usual profile wording I assumed the possibly relates as usually to the stat before and the higher is seperate.
 
So, for the Xiuhcoatl's AP. The surface craft do this with their flame stuff:

Suddenly, a great light was emitted from the side of the Xiuhcoatl that had its wing torn off. The source of the crimson glow was flames. However, it was not simply fire. It looked more like a great amount of a thick burning liquid was being scattered about.

Like water coming from a fire truck's hose, it was not being emitted in an accurate trajectory.

As if a giant hammer was falling down toward them, an amorphous red mass about 20 meters across fell toward Mikoto and Shirai's heads.

"!?"

Shirai was the one that reacted.

With her arms still wrapped around Mikoto's waist, she travelled across the buoys one after another. The giant hammer of flames struck the ocean, but it did not disappear even as it evaporated a large amount of water. The sea of flames spread out as if it were going to cover up the entire ocean's surface.

And later the burning liquid is blown away by a Railgun and dulls the movements of another Xiuhcoatl.

For the orbital bombardment we have a scene of it being shot a few times over the ocean:

There was a flickering in the blue sky.

It was not just in one spot.

Bright sunlight poured down like it was midsummer, but the sky flickered like a sky full of stars. Before Mikoto could figure out what it was, the downpour of destruction hit the surface.

"!?"

Everything was swallowed up by the noise.

The one-sided roar stole all other information from Mikoto's ears. The objects raining down were over 1000 brilliantly white beams of light. With the opened parabolic antenna in the center, an area with a diameter of 10 kilometers was utterly blown away.

Mikoto and Shirai were lucky that it had not been one giant bomb. The randomly scattered attack was more like a shotgun blast, so Shirai could carefully teleport around just barely managing to evade.

A huge amount of seawater was evaporated.

The parabolic antenna was blown to pieces by its ally's attack.

The sea of flames that had been spreading across the ocean's surface was utterly blown away.

Shirai continued to teleport around while still holding Mikoto and somehow managed to make it through the first wave. However, a second and a third wave were already raining down from above.

[...]

On top of that, a large amount of seawater had been evaporated by the downpour of light. However, only the very surface area seemed to have been affected. The cold seawater below must have been mixing in because it was not boiling. Even so, she could feel a steamy heat just by holding out her hand. The water temperature had to be at least 70 degrees. It seemed like it was going to take some time before the deeper cold water managed to lower that temperature.

According to Xochitl, the orbital bombardment would be capable of burning away/destroying 87% of Liberal Arts City, a huge artificial island. This is supported by the novel telling us Liberal Arts City has a diameter of about 10km, and that the surface craft needed to get to the very center of the city/artificial island to blow it away entirely since the orbital bombardment diameter is also 10km.
 
Orbital bombardement: 10 km diameter area blown away = 6.1 Megatons of TNT = Small City level+

About the burning liquid stuff:

I will later on post a calc to get a few opinions on my result there, since such calcs are not all that standard.
 
Thanks, I'll wait to make the page then. Now I'm finishing Saronia's, and I had totally forgotten how confusing all the explanations about her magic were for such a forgettable character.
 
Maybe a misinterpretation of when he manipulated the Phase of Heaven to bring it to Earth in OT22? It does say dimension cutting/shifting. I can't think of anything else that could have come from. Since we don't treat Phases as dimensions, we should remove that. LN text for reference:

The heavens greatly opened up.

That clear otherworldly and artificially arranged night sky of red, blue, yellow, and green split open. Like an old stocking ripping, large cracks appeared in places and they spread soundlessly.

On the other side was a golden light.

It was just like a legend. It was just like the world seen in religious art. That lowering curtain of light looked like a scene of the heavens and the earth being connected. Someone who did not know the circumstances would likely have mistaken it for an angel above the clouds about to spill out. In reality, god and the angels were not at a physical height. They were on the other side of some invisible phase like infrared rays or ultraviolet rays. However, that mistaken impression may not have been too far off in a way. That golden light was a massive amount of Telesma.

Fiamma had not called in an angel.

It may have been more accurate to say he had called in the world where angels were.

Fiamma of the Right had not pitifully knocked on the door again and again and then waited for the heavy door to open. He had only transformed the place at which he stood into an appropriate place.
 
Isn't that because of Sanctuary of St. George?

Taken from ACF wiki. High-level protection spell that distorts space-time and creates a dimensional faults around the user, which absorb any physical damage. It can probably be used for the attack.

Or through a scaling with Curtana original since Curtana Original can cut dimension.

"Who are you…?"

Carissa gathered strength in her right hand, remembered that Curtana Original had been broken, clicked her tongue, and threw the hilt away.

"Who exactly are you…?"

"I am Fiamma of the Right. If that isn't enough of a hint for you, then you really need to rebuild your intelligence agency from the ground up."

"!!"

Fiamma of the Right.

He was the final member of God's Right Seat, the group that controlled the Roman Catholic Church from the shadows, and he was the member that wielded the greatest power. According to the reports she had read, he had half-destroyed St. Peter's Basilica with a single strike and it still wasn't clear whether the Pope, who the attack had been aimed at, would recover or not.

After recalling all that information, Carissa suddenly looked up having remembered something.

"The angel you are aligned with is Michael… Curtana uses power from the same angel, so are you after this sword!?"

"Hm? Oh, I see, I see. I suppose I could have done it that way."

Fiamma seemed to be joking around while Carissa carefully watched him.

She tried to provoke him to watch his reaction.

"But Curtana Original here has already lost its functionality. If you were planning to use the chaos caused by the coup d'etat to steal it, you're out of luck."

"Ah, that really is a shame. That really may have been easier," muttered Fiamma as if he really wasn't thinking about it too seriously.

It looked as if he truly did feel the way he said he did.

"No, I guess not. That wouldn't work. It has the right type of power, but its capacity probably wouldn't last. As soon as my power was passed into it, it would probably just be blown to pieces."
 
St. George's Sanctuary is listed seperately in the powers and stats and can not be used to slice dimensions. I actually don't even see how you would offensively use it, as said it is a defensive spells and, diferent from esper powers, the effects of spells can not be so freely shaped.
 
So the only Gremlin members left without a page are Freyja and Fenrir, since Loki doesn't have enough info for one. Fenrir should scale to Oriana, who probably needs a page too. I'll try to look for a feat for her, because otherwise the only thing I can think of is to put her as 9-A for being comparable to Stiyl. Unless we scale Stiyl to Mikoto's Railgun, which is Building level acording to the calc in her page.

For Freyja N├¡├░höggr vol 1 should probably get its own key seeing how it acted independently from her and was much bigger than all her other summons, including N├¡├░höggr vol 2. Mökkurkalfe would then be the third key.
 
"and was much bigger than all her other summons"

Wait, does that include 540 meter tall Mökkurkalfe? Or doesn't he fall under summons?


Mökkurkalfe might get a nice AP just by his size (or in other words just by dropping himself on something).
 
Mökkurkalfe seems to work differently from the summons/monsters she makes using Brisingamen. It even has the heart/core to control it remotely, which none of the other have. Though now rechecking Mökkurkalfe's page in the wiki, it seems there was a previous (much, much smaller and weaker) Mökkurkalfe during the British Civil war as an autonomous guardian in Buckingham Palace, more similar to Sherry's Golem Ellis. We could make a page and put the two different versions of it (British and Gremlin's) as keys.
 
So this is are the best feats I could find for Oriana Thomson in terms of destruction with a single spell. Except for the last one which is from NT8, they all are from the Daihaseisai arc, OT9 & OT10.

1: Facing that volley of blades that was fanning out like a shotgun, Tsuchimikado moved sideways and got onto the ground. Several pillars behind him were knocked down, and the lights on the ceiling were dropping towards him. The wall and the ads posted on it were ripped apart, and the marble floor looked like it was farmed.

2: The entire road was destroyed.
From where Oriana was standing, all the pillars to the end of the passage were destroyed. Seemed like those pillars were just decorations, as in reality, they were not used to support the ceiling. Well, at least it removed the danger of collapsing the ceiling. The walls, the ceiling, all the decorations on the floor, were ripped apart like a gift package, and even the materials on the ground looked like they had been ploughed through. In front of her, there was no flat surface at all. The ground was all fragmented and the sprinkler hoses in the peeled ceiling were all damaged; water was flowing out like a faucet being completely open.

3: At the same time, Oriana, who was far away, tore the flashcard.
The spell activated, and a blue and white light surrounded Oriana. She opened her arms wide, floating into the air, as if she was showing off some new clothes that she had just bought.
After that.
Five hundred meters away, where Oriana was, an explosion could be heard. With her as the center, the surrounding air started to stir around as if a circle was being drawn. An invisible hammer began to attack, ignoring the distance. That clockwise winding pressure hammer cut down every single construct surrounding her, whipping up the asphalt and moving towards Kamijou.
"!!"
Kamijou immediately readied his right hand.
With a cracking noise, the high-pressure wall was gone. Oriana, who was five hundred meters away and looked like a small dot, hastily prepared another flashcard. Even so, it was still unable to prevent the asphalt ground from flipping up.

[...]

At the same time, a red flame sword appeared in Stiyl's right hand. He swung the sword at the tsunami of stone, completely ignoring the fact that Kamijou was right beside him.
"Eh!?"
As Kamijou frantically got down, the flame sword collided with the rock fragments. After that, the flame sword lost its shape and exploded. The directional flames avoided Kamijou, who was below, and hacked horizontally at the asphalt wall, which exploded all over.

[...]

The buildings themselves were the control towers on both sides of the runway: a fishslice shaped board that was mechanically supported. Instead of saying that it was research on planes, this place seemed to be focused on runway research. Each of the three runways had a giant fan, jet propeller, and other additional facilities.
But, because of the attack that Oriana let loose, the control tower machinery was destroyed, the experimental bodies that collected the data were blown apart, the asphalt ground was destroyed, as if someone was farming on it.
Both sides were running on that destroyed rubble. The distance between both sides was about three hundred meters.

4: While walking through a conifer forest covered in white snow, Fenrir came across a rope stretched out between the trees. The rope had an upside-down triangular cloth attached and that cloth had a skull mark in the center.

It seemed the area ahead was a minefield, but Fenrir ignored the warning and continued on.

After walking a little further, the forest suddenly ended and he could see a large space surrounded by a chain-link fence.

It was a radar base with a large number of parabolic antennae inside.

"Does the weight of the snow not break the dishes?"

After uttering that surprised comment, Fenrir heard a noise from the surrounding trees.

He narrowed his eyes slightly.

Immediately afterwards, all of the thick trees in the area were sliced in two at waist height.

It seemed to have been a long blade using wind or something similar.

The blade had been several dozen meters long and it had been created by a single card ripped from a set of flashcards held together by a metal ring. The card said "Wind Symbol" in yellow writing.
 
LazyHunter said:
Profiles for the Misaka clones would be nice. We do have specific comparisons for all the clones' esper powers with Mikoto's, so their lightning AP should be easy to determine.
A normal Sister is a Level 2 Electromaster, 1/20,000 Mikoto, max output of 50,000 volts

Last Order is a Level 3 Electromaster, 126/20,000 Mikoto, output of 6,300,000 volts

Worst is a Level 4 Electromaster, 1/5 Mikoto, max output of 200,000,000 volts
Click to expand...
This is not accurate, they said that they would need to kill original Misaka around 180 times in order to make accelerator reach level 6, this means that 20000 of normal clones is at least equal to the amount of 180 original Misaka's.This means that one normal clone is around 1/111 of Mikoto's
 
The growth rate of a accelerator through battle is probably a bit more complicated than simple power addition.

Also given that the 1/20000 and 1/5 numbers are given in the novel they certainly are accurate.
 
Yeah, the "180 Mikotos" and other figures given by the Tree Diagram about Accelerator gaining exp and reaching Level 6 were just a lie fed to the researchers so that the clones would be made for Aleister's plan, so I wouldn't give them much weight. The max outputs and comparisons in power between the original and a Sister/Worst have been used separately from the experiment and so far they appear to be accurate.
 
Thanks. If the calc gets accepted I'll do Oriana's page and leave the comparison to Stiyl to a Content Revision Thread, as upgrading him would upgrade several other magicians.
 
Oriana's page is done. Also, I'm done reading NT15. Kind of obvious comment, but there' some new stuff and a funny NLF.
 
Nice work, do you try make it a goal to do one profile a day? always seem to be seeing a new one daily.

And yeah i've finished reading NT15 also.
 
Thanks. Yeah, I'm trying to complete the pages for OT characters. I think there's around 10 more to go.
 
"What do you think you're looking at, you bitch?"

Never thought I would here that from aleister xD


I finished as well, so time for upgrade discussion, right?

Lets start with the small discussions for existing characters:

Anti-Art-Atachment Railgun seemed to be city block level or maybe multi-city block level. What do you guys think seems appropiate for the described damage?

I think that are actually all upgrades for existin characters (that do not require powerscaling from not yet existant ones) that I can think of.


I will ry to write a more extensive review later, but until then: What did you think of the volume?

I can already say I enjoyed it a lot, more than the last ones, I think. And it smells like character developement ^^
 
To be fair to Aleister, all Laura is doing lately is basically laugh at him. I'm more surprised he actually went out of the tube (probably was using his bilocation, so he was still in the tube at the same time, but you know what I mean) and used physical violence against Yuiitsu. I liked it more than NT13 and NT14, but I though NT13 was fine and I liked NT14. I enjoyed Touma's time at the new school more than I thought I would. I enjoyed Salome's (and Olivia's) weird power and liked the last battle against Yuiitsu a lot, except Touma's brainfart, which seems forced just so that Yuiitsu could start using WR. Now to wait until Js06 finishes the last volume of Zashiki Warashi so I can start trying to make pages for the verse.

New stuff from the volume? Well, besides the obvious two new pages (Yuiitsu and Salome), maybe we can make one for Elza and Claire and put them together with Kamisato and Salome in a Kamisato Faction section in the verse page. I'm thinking that since we have more than 1 user for it, maybe it's better to put the AAA as a weapon page and link Noukan and Mikoto's new key to it. About the AAA, the containers carrying the weapons are already Building level for crushing Molar Teeth, so probably the weapons should be at least that. The large caliber railgun:

"That weapon was meant to be used as a railway gun.

The large caliber railgun was meant to destroy fortresses."

"It did not move at three times the speed of sound. It did not have the small mass of an arcade coin. This blast had been made to create a crater out of a fortress designed to withstand even the most powerful tank.

In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section of Academy City's buildings.

If the District 7's Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have spread without end."

So I think City Block or MCB sounds fine.

Salome is going to be trickier because of how her power works. At base she has superhuman capabilties, but the only estimate we're given is this: "But at the same time, if the conditions were not right, she could not make use of her true power. If her chain of destroying weapons and offering them to her god was broken, she would be nothing more than an eccentric with enough ridiculous strength to break a Japanese sword barehanded."

With chain going she:

Tilted a bank.

Dodged Mikoto's lightning.

Broke and sacrificed Mikoto's iron sand and Railgun.

Kept up with Accel and succesfully ran from him until they reached Touma and Kakeru, with the only damage she suffered coming from baiting Accel before the fight actually started.

Split the school's incinerator in two.

After restarting her chain with the Kamisato Faction's weapon:

"The entire schoolyard was torn in a half-moon shape along the path of her hand. It was just like she held an invisible blade measuring twenty or thirty meters long."

"Flamethrower + katana."

"…!!!!!"

The entire landscape was torn apart.

So the chain can go at least to Building level just for the parts with Mikoto.

For Kihara Yuiitsu, probably Street level physically and with Sample Shoggoth, since it didn't tear off or cut Touma's arm when it bit him. WR should be the same as Kakeru's. Her first magic attack created a shockwave that swept across AC and shook the earth, collapsed the school's fence, toppled several trees and blew off Salome's lower body. Mikoto managed to block it with an iron sand shield, so that should probably be a Durability upgrade for Mikoto. We should probably also give Amata the martial arts technique Yuiitsu uses, since she says is a cheap imitation of one of his techniques. I don't know how to rate her UL Exploder, but I guess compared to her other abilities and considering it can only be used inside AC, it will likely not be a deciding factor in battles. Anyway, UL Exploder blast tossed Touma off a building and later Yuiitsu used it to boost her fall's speed:

"An explosion burst directly behind Kihara Yuiitsu. It was likely the power of that mysterious handgun-shaped device she had used to toss Kamijou and Salome out the window earlier. This time, she used the explosive blast to accelerate her own body and she approached with the speed of an artillery shell. She fell far faster than free fall in a suicidal dive toward the depths of the earth or toward the underworld."
 
Hmm... I actually wondered, had Salome really already a chain going when she began the fight against Mikoto? I mean, yes, she destroyed that one weapon, but except for that?

I thought that the dance spell was possibly a seperate spell, like a dancing spell that uses the legend of salome... Hmm... well given that Salome used external offering to gain speed to stop toumas classmates, I guess likely not.

That said her dodging lightning is interesting. When I have time I will need to discuss that feats given that they aren't as clear as I would like them to be. With a bit of good luck it upgardes accelerator and above to MHS combat speed, instead of the current MHS close combat speed.


About her chain: I guess making keys for the different points in the story makes sense. I guess before absorbing mikotos stuff we could say that her feats are for her "base chain" or in other words what she would reach by just building a chain with her own weapons?


I agree with Amata. Now to aru even uses hax martial arts techniques. Hax everywhere...


Yes, we could do a weapons page for the AAA. That said I don't know if we should add it to mikotos page. It is likely a one time equipement after all.

The Underline exploder is Wall level I would think. At least speeding up a human to the speed of an atillery shell would need that energy.
 
As I understood it, Salome's chains went like this. She started her first chain with her collection of weapons she carries on her bag in AC after leaving the plane in C1 by breaking the glass caltrops. When she meets Hamazura in C2 she breaks the pizza cutter to continue the chain (I don't think she's starting another one, since if a normal pizza cutter can boost her from "slight superstrength" to "tilting building" External Offering is more OP than I though) She breaks the leather whip to keep the chain going before fighting Mikoto. During her fight with Accel she uses up all her collection, so she has to gather new weapons in Touma's new school (Utility knives, kitchen knives, saws, branch cutter, and lawnmower) to start a new one. That chain is stopped and thus the Kamisato Faction sacrifices their weapons to make a third chain, the strongest one of the three, and she keeps that chain going for the rest of the novel.

Yeah, I don't think the dancing was a separate spell. Like the comparisons of her raincoat to a dancer's veil or the mentions in C5 of dances/military performances being used as offerings to a god, I think it was just a reference to her namesake like the narrations says.

Given how her power works by continuously growing stronger, given her an Internal Offering base stat for when she starts her chain and using her best feat as the shown limit for External Offering like "X level with Internal Offering, up to at least Y level with External Offering" seems the most appropriate to me.

Huh, should I remove Hamazura's keys then? Because the three I gave him are all temporary equipment (Dragon Rider, Railgun Five Over, Power Lifter)
 
Well, Hamazura doesn't have all that much power on his own so I thought that is fine. I just think that Misakas page is getting a bit long and she has a much more varied moveset on her own other than hamazura. Well.. If you really want to add a key for AAA on misaka I am fine with that as well.


About limiting salomes chain: I wonder if it is really NLF to say it can keep growing without limit as long as the effect keeps up? You could say its a bit like gathering the weapons and using their power and she has clear limits in that she can always only grow as much more powerful as she can currently destroy... It may be a borderline case, given that it in a way is like gathering the attacks of the opponent and than releasing them at once, not ourtright having not limits from the beginning... Maybe I will get some opinions on that.
 
I think you're right, it might be superfluous to add the key to Mikoto's page since she probably can't even use the special attributes of the suit with her incomplete knowledge.

I mean, one of the good things about Kamachi is that he usually tries to give limits and weaknesses to abilities like Salome's, but that's likely not enough to claim she can keep piling up power. Probably best to put the best limit shown like with Accel, Fiamma, Kagun and others.

Unrelated, but I was rereading stuff in NT5-6, and I think that Fraulein Kreutune hasn't displayed Regenerationn. Her immortality seems more like a form of invulnerability to conventional damage, as she's described as having endured all those witch trials without ever being harmed or shedding a single drop of blood, Kakine and Accelerator couldn't seem to injure her with their attacks and the swarm of mutant roaches bit her but couldn't draw any blood, etc..; so I believe the Durability is definitely not Human level. I think I'll add this to the Content Revision Thread I'm planning to make about Styil and other magicians and put there the relevant quotes from the novel.
 
About Salome, I don't think it's NLF to say she can indefinitely get stronger as long as she keeps destroying things, her limits lie in the fact that she has to be able to destroy said power to gain it, and as I recall she also said it has to not be to powerful for her for this to work. and it's not like she can abuse it or get wanked to some stupid level of power in a versus thread or anything.

It's nowhere near the levels of NLFiamma, and I don't think it needs to be treated as such

EDIT: oh, and just out of curiousity can anyone tell me what's the reasoning we have for Othinus' 50/50 form being Unknown? I'm pretty sure I know why it is but i'd just like confirmation.
 
I assume it's Unknown because how random her powers are, there's really no much point to using that form for battles, as there's only three outcomes possible.

1) Normal enemy, flip a coin to see who wins.

2) Unlucky enemy, Othinus has the advantage.

3) Lucky enemy or enemy with probability manipulation, Othinus gets stomped. I find funny there's 3 characters in other Kamachi series that would stomp 50/50 Othinus 10 times out of 10 for this reason.
 
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