Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread

[DontTalk]

Hmm... I would in this case be in favor of option c and adding direct contact as an option, as you suggested.

But a content revision thread can definitely not hurt.

Sooo... I will later take care of somehow getting a few opinions on the speed approximation I brought up for salome. So either you can start a thread if you want or I can do so after that discussion is finished.

 

[LazyHunter]

I'll start a thread once I finish with Yuiitsu's page. Funny enough, looking over some other uses of World Rejecter in NT14 and NT15 I found these two sentences.

"My World Rejecter has the power to exile people to the excess region in the same timeline. It affects anyone whose conflicting desires cause them to cling to the current world while also wishing for a new world. In other words, your efforts here are useless. It doesn't matter how much power you have or how many strategies you've put together."

This one was fatal. It had been a clean hit. The woman had spoken the words with her hand's shadow entirely placed on the girl's body. When World Rejecter activated, it held enough power to defeat even Magic Gods by the dozen. Salome's body would be swiftly "exiled" to the spare territory between related timelines. Basically, a living human being would be sent to another world, never to be seen again.

Now I wonder how does Kamachi view Toaru's world, since in NT13 Kakeru and Nephthys stated that there were no parallel worlds. Though technically Kakeru just said that there was no infinite expanse of parallel worlds, so maybe there's a limited amount of parallel worlds or Kamachi doesn't consider alternate timelines to be parallel worlds and sees it as one world with multiple timelines. I am not gonna bring this up in a revision thread, though, there has already been enough discussion about the "world" in Toaru and those two quotes appear to contradict themselves, so maybe Kamachi hasn't quite decided how exactly the "exile" thing works.

 

[DontTalk]

I had stumbled upon that as well, when reading NT 15. I think either kamachi had a bit of a slip-up there or he thinks of to arus timeline as a single timeline with many timelines in it at once.

You remember the methaphor with the movie frames and that it is like kakeru inserts new frames inbetween, right? I guess the frames he inserts basically all build a seperate timeline within the same timeline like if one mixes the frames of two seperate movies alternating between frames from one and another movie. So excess regions in the same timeline would be the space between the frames, while the spare territory between the timelines he created would also be space between the frames of the different worlds.

At least that's my idea on how it might be supposed to be viewed. Would a phase created over one world affect all worlds then? It sure is a strange cosmology he made up there.

 

[DontTalk]

I just noticed we have the depiction yuiitsu gave some of the magic gods, right? Should we try to figure out who is who in order to use those for the portraits of some of the magic gods that don't have pictures yet?

 

[LazyHunter]

Made the thread for World Rejecter.

About those magic gods, Niang-Niang is obvious since we already saw her. Chimera is right under her (Horns, lion mane and snake). Proserpina is the woman in the black dress right to the left of Yuiitsu. Of the two others, Tezcatlipoca is the one on top (Dreadlocks, brown skin) and Nuada is the one below (Tattoos, light hair, prosthetic hand).

Shame Zombie won't get a design like the other Gremlin members. And that Kamachi won't give a concrete number on how many Magic Gods were in True Gremlin. Man, Mahaya has spoiled me, in ZW and Beatrice you get designs for characters that only appear as corpses, characters with no lines and less than a paragraph of noveltime and even characters that actually don't appear in the novel. So unbalanced, just look at all the extra designs Mahaya made for Hishigami women in the last volume, it's crazy.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmm... I was reading beatrice recently. Where do you find character designs and stuff not straight forward in the novel translation? For to aru I always looking in the wiki, but for beatrice... Edit: Actually do you know if beatrice is a oneshot?


That aside seems as Salomes speed feats will generally not be completly disregarded. As I said the the blog I would personally take the low end, as I would rather not take too much speculations for this. Still means Salomes main speed goes from HIgh Hypersonic to High Hypersonic+.

Who should that scale to?

Clair and accelerator of course. I would think not Mjölnir and Gunha, but aside from them most of the people that currently have High Hypersonic, with Massively Hypersonic clsoe combat speed I think.

I am not quite sure for Kakine though, but given his fights against rensa it's likely reasonable.

 

[LazyHunter]

Fortunately it's not a oneshot like Waltraute, since vol 2 will be released in July. For the record, 20th novel since Kamachi started his monthly schedule, not counting the webnovel released in his website and a new thing (I think a short story) that was announced in his website. The website also has a SS for Zashiki Warashi starring Hayabusa and Enbi, hopefully it gets translated somewhere down the line.

As for the designs, Mahaya has a blog with the sketches and character designs for Zashiki Warashi and Beatrice. Here you have the designs for the first Beatrice volume, though most do show up in the illustrations. Check out Boo Boo's first design, though, no wonder they went with the final one.


That's good to hear. I agree with you, it would clearly scale to Claire and Accelerator. Rensa can use Accelerator's power and Kakine can fight her, so to them too. Saint-level people + Angels (Gabriel and Kazakiri) should also likely be scaled to that.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Agree with Lazy, Kakine, and saint level chars should get the scaling. in other words everyone who is already high hypersonic.

I don't know if you guys follow the index manga or not, but I think in 1 or 2 more chapters Accelerators Earth rotation feat should be shown. i'm pretty interested to see how they depict it (hoping they don't go the anime route, don't think they will)

Also one day (likely years) that will get translated and i'll be interested in seeing how Kihara describes his reflection

On the topic of Accelerator, did you guys notice Salome mentioned Accelerators real name? so we may find it out afterall. the last time that was mentioned was waaaaaaay back god knows when.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with you on the feat. I understand why they changed it in the anime, since the visuals alone wouldn't look as impressive without the explanation, and the anime wasn't going to have a sudden narrator or Accelerator explain what was going on.

I don't know if I want to know Accelerator's real name or not, I'm kind of split there. Kamachi has used the "character without a name" thing in so much in Index and his other series that it doesn't really bother me anymore. The mention of Accel's real name could be Kamachi teasing fans, in the same volume he goes out of his way to call Aogami "a relatively unimportant classmate", and there's no way Kamachi isn't aware of the "Aogami being #6" theory.

 

[LordAizenSama]

It will probably be intertwined as his final transformation into a good guy if he learns what it is, or something.

 

[DontTalk]

soooo I applied the discussed upgrades to everyone necessary, I hope (and changed the reasoning appropiately).

 

[LazyHunter]

Railgun 86 was released, and Ryouko's case seems to be more interesting than what I initially thought. The distorted black faces in some panels with her seem to be there for a reason (unlike early Accelerator manga chapters), as she seems to be having some kind of weird perception filter thing going on. She saw one of the cleaning robots as a maid.

Talking about Accelerator, chapter 19 was also released, surprisingly. It was pretty obvious in the raws, but the Qion Qi Coffin can use some sort of trick to slightly get past Accelerator's reflection with its Level 5 Psychokinesis, though the machine also was harmed in the exchange.

 

[LordAizenSama]

well, they had to find some way for something to give Accelerator a issue besides the *Hue hue we jammed ur connection we win* route.

Though speaking of Accelerator... We actually got another Toaru Kagaku no Accelerator chapter translated today.. I'm quite shocked. it's the first in over... sixth months I believe

EDIT: Epic facepalm. You meant the translated chapter, I thought you meant the Raws for the latest chapter. fail xD

 

[GreatestSin]

^now that you mentioned the raws,

didnt accelerator get teleported in ch25?

it seems like he is vulnerable to teleporters if he isnt actively reflecting the 11th dimension, should this be added to his weaknesses? (at least to his choker-version one?)

 

[LazyHunter]

I'd wait until that part is translated, but so far from the raws the Taotie's ability appears to work differently than the other 3 teleporters we've seen in the series. Not to mention that unless the explanation is a new blindspot in his ability it doesn't seem like a notable weakness. I don't think we even mention he can reflect Toaru's esper teleporters in his page since that kind of thing is not something useful in matches with other verses unless it's an ability with similar enough mechanics.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Pretty sure verse equalization covers that.

EDIT: Accelerators Chapter 20 is translated now aswell

 

[GreatestSin]

^the teleportation of toaru works with 11th dimension something, but other verses where teleportation is used for attacking, the one i can currently recall are from "Code:Breaker" and "Zettai Karen Children" use space manipulation for that,

and accelerator never showed to be able to manipulate "space" right? would verse equal work by that too?

^^makes sense, than i will mention it again in a few years after ch25 is translated ^_^

 

[Dpolaristar]

You do realize that "dimensions" in this context refers to dimension of space? And Teleporters in To Aru ARE manipulating space when moving from point A to B by making the distance between the point shorter. (11 dimensions is taking a shorter "route" then with 3)

So in this context the two powers are fundamentally the same (Like Mikoto and Mugino's)

 

[GreatestSin]

^but that is not the same as space-manipulation i think, one is simply the reflection of "portals" that teleporters create while using their powers, and the other is the manipulation of space itself that is more fundamental than vectors (direction only happens if space is present) :/

 

[LordAizenSama]

Found a possible feat in volume 20, pg 146. some British knights blew away lightning aimed at Carissa. Is this worth anything?

 

[LazyHunter]

I mentioned it in their profile as a possibility of the Curtana buffed Knights being faster, but given that it was magic ligthning I'm not sure if it's worth it or not.

 

[Dpolaristar]

@GreatestSin I don't see the difference in order to make a wormhole in physics you have to "bend space." So Unless I'm missing something the Space Manipulation teleportation your talking about is the same thing. I'm not familiar with the series your talking about so If you could give some official statements/desceriptions/feats of their powers I'd be more convinced.

Also since Space can be "warped" by a large amount of Mass, is Stretched for the speed of Light, and Expands I'd say it can be influenced by Vector Control. So I'd think Accel would at least be able to passively defend against it, In White wings mode with the "imaginary Vectors" BS I'd also think he could cover that.

For Now I'm going to say "indecisive."

By the way I wanna bring something up about To Aru, specifically the Saints/Saint level opponents. I don't want to downplay but I honestly don't think they are mountain busters in striking power.

The one instance we have is Kaori who was amped with "Yussin" slicing off one of Gabriels wings and the debrie destroyed a mountain. I don't think this qualifies as Kaori herself being a mountain buster due to her simply cutting off a part of a wing, and the wings own momentum destroying the mountain. Say person A can destroy a brick wall in one punch and while swinging it someone else cuts off his arm, I don't think this means the person that sliced the arm is Wall Level.

A blade is by definition an object that puts a small amount of force into a smaller surface area those increase the pressure in a small area. It's why with a blade you can damage people/objects with the same amount of force that they could tank with blunt force. Thus I don't think Kaori using a bladed object to slice a wing of water/ice moving at great speed is a striking force feat.

It also doesn't make sense given all of Kaori and other Saint's showings. If Saints were Mountain busters in striking power then Mikoto shouldn't have been able to stop the Valkeryie's Claymore AT ALL, When her biggest feat of Magnetism is Holding enough Iron Sand to Destroy a Russian base and cushioning the landing of multiple (What I assume to be) Hotel size buildings. This is far smaller then destroying a mountain.

At the very least it's an outlier since even by statements the saints are said to be powerful enough to destroy an entire town and are compared to Nukes. If we are generous I'd say they are town to city level at most in striking power.

 

[GreatestSin]

@GreatestSin I don't see the difference in order to make a wormhole in physics you have to "bend space." So Unless I'm missing something the Space Manipulation teleportation your talking about is the same thing. I'm not familiar with the series your talking about so If you could give some official statements/desceriptions/feats of their powers I'd be more convinced.

im not specifically talking about teleportation but space manipulation, of course teleportation is included if space manipulation is mentioned,

here is a example of space manipulation in order to teleport things: http://www.***********.net/code-breaker/80/9

logcially speaking accels powers wouldnt be able to do anything against this :/

OR, if you are familiar with the BlackClover manga, they have several wormhole creating chars, or in BokunoHero there are at least 2 shown powers that allow teleportation, but they clearly dont work like in toaru, not sure if verse equal would fit into it

 

[LazyHunter]

@Dpolaristar

Saints are clearly Mountain level IMO. Kanzaki Kaori can go toe to toe with Misha Kreutzev, who can flatten mountains. She is also stated to have fought and presumably killed an evil dragon described as capable of swallowing mountains. Silvia blocks an attack from Hel with her magic barriers with no apparent effort.

The point you're making about Mikoto slowing down Brunhild's swing (for a second before Brunhild continued moving) might be valid if t wasn't for the context of the situation. In all 3 fights (Touma vs Leivinia, Mikoto vs Brunhild and Thor vs Silvia) all people involved but Touma are holding back and not really doing their best, since it's a "good guys disagree and have a fight about it" moment. Mikoto has been shown to hold back against human opponents numerous times, which is why she sometimes has trouble with weaker opponents. Thor is holding back too, since as he mentioned he doesn't see Silvia as an interesting enemy and would very much be exchanging punches with Touma instead. He also doesn't break out Almighty Thor despite a couple of close calls. Silvia is still using her rope magic style to not cause collateral damage, if she's bloodlusted/wants to kill you or make you suffer she would use her bare hands like with Touma in NT9. Brunhild is not really interested in the fight and doesn't even try using her rune magic. Leivinia is later accused of holding back on Touma due to not using her tarot magic to buff herself and blitz Touma.

Also, please don't use the "imaginary vectors" claim, that's something people not familiar with the novels hear and then try to use to wank Accel. I've already explained that in this thread.

 

[DontTalk]

Accels power would not work against spacetime manipulation, like for example the quantum cutter of Aoi I would think (Even though he can manipulate gravity, which would actually imply some degree of control).

Teleportation through things like wormholes and what was shown in code breaker would not work though. The principle behind those things is essentially the same as for to arus teleporters just done a bit different. Wormholes essentially just shorten the distance between two points so that by regular movements methods one can go from one to the other almost instantly. But in such cases regular movement is still involved. In other words, while the wormhole is a thing the movement through the wormhole would be reflected, so that teleporting something inside accelerator, with that method, would in the end not work.

 

[Gabriel_00]

Shouldn't Accelerator attack speed be a lot faster using the Earths rotation energy? There was a calc that put accel at relativistic+(0,99c) movement speed. It can't be used for his normal movement speed but maybe his attack speed.

 

[GreatestSin]

^^but isnt "absolute space" manipulating the space? it erases or creates space in itself, there isnt a wormhole or the like,

but Black Clover and Boku no Hero (at least the black fog ability) would count, how is it with this ability from Hunter x Hunter? :http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Knov#Ne

 

[DontTalk]

@GreatestSin: As far as I am aware Absolute space wasn't used for destruction processes directly. And the way it works is erasing the space between point A and point B to instantly be able to move to point B. In other words here as well the, through the ability, very strongly shortened distance still has to be moved by physical means.

Edit: Actually it is supposed by moving him through distance manipulation. In that case he can move as close as he wants using the ability, bt the moment he actually moves in common sense to do damage (since the movement through his ability has no KE and can not telefrag), that is reflected again.

From the HxH wiki bit I understand it that the ability basically works by him walking through 4 dimensional space, which is not fundamentally different from to arus teleporters 11 dimensional movement, just with less dimensions.

@Gabriel 00: I know that calc since I made it and it's very faulty. It should by no means be used.

 

[GreatestSin]

^mh, the manga made it seem like the chars teleported and didnt get "moved", but i guess a bit artistic freedom and it can be called teleportation in-story

what i meant was the "slash" attack of Knov, it is similar to Aois ability :/

 

[Dpolaristar]

@GreatestSin I don't see the difference in order to make a wormhole in physics you have to "bend space." So Unless I'm missing something the Space Manipulation teleportation your talking about is the same thing. I'm not familiar with the series your talking about so If you could give some official statements/desceriptions/feats of their powers I'd be more convinced.

im not specifically talking about teleportation but space manipulation, of course teleportation is included if space manipulation is mentioned,
here is a example of space manipulation in order to teleport things: http://www.***********.net/code-breaker/80/9

logcially speaking accels powers wouldnt be able to do anything against this :/

OR, if you are familiar with the BlackClover manga, they have several wormhole creating chars, or in BokunoHero there are at least 2 shown powers that allow teleportation, but they clearly dont work like in toaru, not sure if verse equal would fit into it

Seems more or less the same as someone stated. Also Accelerator has shown to deflect Gravity when he wants, and According to Relativity Gravity doesn't exist except as an emmergent phenonenum from Objects of Large enough Mass bending Space. So basically Accelerator can resist object's "falling" towards the bent space if he wants, of course if we assume Accelerator's reflection isn't a No Limits Fallacy then bending space at a certain rate can bypass this. But unless your spatial manipulator can create a singularity I don't see it affecting Accel's reflection.

 

[Dpolaristar]

@Dpolaristar
Saints are clearly Mountain level IMO. Kanzaki Kaori can go toe to toe with Misha Kreutzev, who can flatten mountains. She is also stated to have fought and presumably killed an evil dragon described as capable of swallowing mountains. Silvia blocks an attack from Hel with her magic barriers with no apparent effort.

The point you're making about Mikoto slowing down Brunhild's swing (for a second before Brunhild continued moving) might be valid if t wasn't for the context of the situation. In all 3 fights (Touma vs Leivinia, Mikoto vs Brunhild and Thor vs Silvia) all people involved but Touma are holding back and not really doing their best, since it's a "good guys disagree and have a fight about it" moment. Mikoto has been shown to hold back against human opponents numerous times, which is why she sometimes has trouble with weaker opponents. Thor is holding back too, since as he mentioned he doesn't see Silvia as an interesting enemy and would very much be exchanging punches with Touma instead. He also doesn't break out Almighty Thor despite a couple of close calls. Silvia is still using her rope magic style to not cause collateral damage, if she's bloodlusted/wants to kill you or make you suffer she would use her bare hands like with Touma in NT9. Brunhild is not really interested in the fight and doesn't even try using her rune magic. Leivinia is later accused of holding back on Touma due to not using her tarot magic to buff herself and blitz Touma.

Also, please don't use the "imaginary vectors" claim, that's something people not familiar with the novels hear and then try to use to wank Accel. I've already explained that in this thread.

I already explained how she could not be mountain level and be fighting Gabriel by slicing the wings before they hit her, I'd agree with you if Kaozi was smashing them apart with her fist but she wasn't.

As for the other scenario I never got the impession any of them were holding back except for Leviana. Brunhild isn't a heroic character and has no reason to hold back, she'd want to end the fight swiftly to help Silivia against Thor. (Even if she held back at first once she identified that Mikoto was worth "speaking to" and then Mikoto refused she most certainly not be holding back then.) Mikoto even if she didn't use some techniques like EMing her Internal Organ's was most certainly not holding back when trying to block Brunsted's Claymore strikes. Silivia it seems was more being cautious about Thor's powers/not wanting to destroy the city. Thor wasn't using Almight Thor but he otherwise was going for the kill with his Arc Fusion blades. Brunsted, Silivia, and Thor I wouldn't call heroes. They aren't pure evil but they are each willing to go through extremes to get what they want.

I wasn't wanking Accelerator there are plenty people that would crush him. I personally think his White Wings (Maybe even black wings) Should be banned from battle discussions as there are too many questions on the limits of what his power is and what he can and can't do. I also believe that there isn't a such thing as a "fair" match-up for Accelerator he either stomps or get's stomped. (Closest thing to fair Is Gilgamesh vs Accelerator if only for the reason the Gil has some weapons that can harm him, but as the same time Accel could be argued to blizes him before he's smart enough to use them.)

 

[LazyHunter]

I presented a few pieces of evidence of her and other Saints being Mountain level, which you ignored. Sorry, but it will take more for you to convince me that she's not Mountain level than just "she's using a sword and not her fists".

Brunhild was completely calm and not even winded by a fight in which she didn't use all of her powers. Mikoto obviously is the one taking the battles more seriously after Touma, but like Brunhild she didn't use all of her options. If Thor wasn't using his best card that would likely quickly end the fight, then by definition he was holding back. Silvia is stated to have developed his rope Telesma summoning style to hold back and not cause collateral damage, so no idea how you can even argue that's she's not holding back in a fight where she uses the ropes.

I didn't mean to say you were wanking Accelerator, sorry if it came out that way. I meant that because people have repeated that misunderstanding about the scene when he uses magic so many times, non-readers who want to wank Accel use it as an excuse for Accelerator to do things beyond what he has shown to be capable of. Just like downplayers try to argue that because a character is using magic or a type of energy that obviously doesn't exist in the Toaru verse, the character's attacks will somehow easilly go past Accel's reflections like Aiwass' attacks did.

I agree with your assessment about Accelerator's matchups, that is why he doesn't have victories. If his power works then most characters without certain skills would be stomped as they can't harm him. If it doesn't, then it's a stomp in the other direction.

 

[Dpolaristar]

I presented a few pieces of evidence of her and other Saints being Mountain level, which you ignored. Sorry, but it will take more for you to convince me that she's not Mountain level than just "she's using a sword and not her fists".
Brunhild was completely calm and not even winded by a fight in which she didn't use all of her powers. Mikoto obviously is the one taking the battles more seriously after Touma, but like Brunhild she didn't use all of her options. If Thor wasn't using his best card that would likely quickly end the fight, then by definition he was holding back. Silvia is stated to have developed his rope Telesma summoning style to hold back and not cause collateral damage, so no idea how you can even argue that's she's not holding back in a fight where she uses the ropes.

I didn't mean to say you were wanking Accelerator, sorry if it came out that way. I meant that because people have repeated that misunderstanding about the scene when he uses magic so many times, non-readers who want to wank Accel use it as an excuse for Accelerator to do things beyond what he has shown to be capable of. Just like downplayers try to argue that because a character is using magic or a type of energy that obviously doesn't exist in the Toaru verse, the character's attacks will somehow easilly go past Accel's reflections like Aiwass' attacks did.

I agree with your assessment about Accelerator's matchups, that is why he doesn't have victories. If his power works then most characters without certain skills would be stomped as they can't harm him. If it doesn't, then it's a stomp in the other direction.

I didn't ignore your evidence I brought up the same thing. You're ignoring my evidence. I'm saying that if she just cuts the wing and then the momentum of the flying wing clashes into a mountain to destroy it it shouldn't be considered mountain level. It's more like she deflected it rather then flat out tanked it. In real life there are martial arts like Judo that let you take on an opponent with more strength then you by using their own strength against him. Even if the Water Wings themselves could destroy mountains they are made of water thus with enough speed would be able to cut. Gabriel only infuses the wings power with Telesma for a certain attack. Not for his/her casual attacks.

Once again it seems the only holding back they did was to stop the city from being destroyed. Brunhild may not have access to her more unique spells outside of Gungir/without prep. Mikoto may have not used her EM pulse. But in the context of debating Brunhild's striking strength she wouldn't hold back trying to block that, and if Brunhild's intent was to kill her I don't see why she would hold back using her full force into the strike. No where does it say that Brunhild is holding back in power and nowhere does it say Mikoto was holding back with her Magnetism feats.

Silivia once again was trying to avoid caleterial damage to the environment she was most certainly trying to kill Thor, besides it's not relavent as I'm debating striking strength and Silivia was primarily using her rope to create magic circuits to try to get Thor off gaurd for an easy kill to take advantage of his inferior physical stats. Thor may have been holding back Almight Thor, but he was still fully intent on killing Silivia. His primary reason for holding back was to not destroy the city. It even mentions in the same novel he can't find a good opponent to match him without causing colletral damage which he doesn't want to do. (Unless he switches to Almight which makes the fight boring.)

Also you said you gave multiple accounts of evidence but the only feat you gave was the Misha fight, I'd agree with you if there were more showings of the Saints busting mountains. No the dragon that can swallow a mountain doesn't necessarily mean her blows can blow them away, she could have easily stabbed it at a weak spot, or inside it's own body, or sliced him up. (Even if I don't think a Saint can Destroy a mountain I think they could carve one up.) We don't know the details of the fight, how she defeated it, how difficult it was, etc.......So I don't consider that evidence for mountain busting.

 

[Akabane-Dr-Jackal]

One question that's been bothering me for a while. Why are the To Aru profiles here so different fro the ones at ACF? ACF ranks the Othinus as 2-A and the Magic Gods as 2-A and possibly Tier 1, while we rank Othinus as 2-C and the Magic Gods at just 2-A. Why the discrepancy?

 

[Akabane-Dr-Jackal]

Anyways, I found this power pyramid.

http://i.imgur.com/1AhleSW.jpg

 

[LazyHunter]

Once again, substantial evidence puts Saints as Mountain level. I'll list my points with some quotes from the novels to prove them. Sorry for the incoming wall of text, but I want to put all my points and evidence in one place.

1st: Kanzaki Kaori can go toe to toe with Misah Kreutzev, who can flatten mountains. And yes, if you read the novels you'll see that Misha's normal attacks are described that way. OT4 Chapter 3 Part 3:

Each wing was thoroughly infused with the Power of God, and each attack could flatten mountains and carve valleys like Divine Judgment. Even if it was on the battlefield as per normal, Kanzaki, who often caused enemies to back away in fear, was now stiff with tension. If it were anyone else, the killing intent released would have caused the person to faint.

2nd: Kanzaki Kaori is stated by his former friends and close companions of the Amakusa Church to have fought an evil dragon capable of swallowing up a mountain, presumably killing it. OT7 Chapter 3 Part 1:

Do we need a reason? There's no reason from the beginning. This is how the Amakusa does things, especially for our generation. You're asking why our Priestess was able to be our leader at such a young age? In order to fulfill a child's wish, she dared to go against an evil dragon that can swallow a mountai. In order to fulfill the dying leader's wish, she was willing to protect a small village against thousands of enemies. Along the way, we were walking in her shadow. Although the time in which she led us was short, to us, it's eternal... Because of her, we're able to walk onto the path of righteousness; we're not being led astray, and we don't abuse our power. While it's easy to just say it, she taught this through action. She used her actions to show that humans can be strong and benevolent, that doing this isn't difficult.

Yes, given the lack of details on the fight this is not a valid determining factor on its ow. But it supports Saints being Mountain level when you also have evidences number 1 and 3 to go with it.

3rd: More importantly, and the evidence you have ignored twice, the calc that puts Hel, a member of Gremlin, as Mountain level. Hel's attack was blocked by Silvia's magic and Saints are superior to most normal magicians, to the point "being capable of fighting a Saint directly" is a mark of strength for the most powerful magicians such as Knight Leader, Carissa, Elizard and Maiden of Versailles. It's one of the ways magicians are measured up both in-series and by fans for a reason. All Saints so far are more or less comparable to one another, so Silvia's feat can be applied to other Saints, proving the two aforementioned Mountain level statements.

4th: I've already explained how one of your initial pieces of evidence, the comparison of a Saint to nuclear weapons, makes much more sense in that Saints and nukes are both strategic assets that can decide a large conflict and a symbol of power for the organization that can claim to have them in their arsenal.

5th: Your argument of "Kanzaki used a sword and the wings were made of water" honestly doesn't make any sense to me because this is fiction and both characters are using magic. Kanzaki's sword is not a normal sword and Grabriel's ice wings are not just normal ice, so I see absolutely no reason for them not to be as powerful as the previous statements and calc make them out to be. You are the one who has to prove Gabriel's ice wings are that fragile when all signs indicate that it's not

6th: You may be confusing Attack Potency with DC, they are not the same. A character doesn't necessarily require to bust a mountain to be mountain level, they can be mountain level for fighting and harming characters who are mountain level, which is the case here.

7th: The fact that Saints usually hold back their strength when fighting lower level characters should be obvious to anyone reading the novels. Brunhild liquified an artificial Valkyrie (who should be much tougher than a normal human) with a kick and is stated to be capable of bending a tanker in two with a single punch. Thor thought that a serious punch from Silvia would explode his arm. However, Kanzaki, Acqua of the Back and Silvia herself have been shown to be perfectly capable of holding back their physical strength so as to not kill humans with their blows, such as when Kanzaki stomped Touma (since she doesn't kill), when Acqua stomped Touma and the Amakusa (he wasn't trying to kill them) and when Silvia stomped Touma (since she wanted to pummel him and make him suffer before killing him). Thus is much more reasonable for Brunhild to hold back when fighting Mikoto than not. Also, once more, Mikoto could barely stop Brunhild's claymore for a second before Brunhild's strength proved too much for her, so Brunhild was obviously much stronger. NT6 Chapter 7 Part 7:

"That sword!!"

Brunhild Eiktobel was aiming for Mikoto's neck with her claymore, but the sword stopped in midair.

But once again it did not last even a second.

As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

Fun fact, Mikoto can use magnetism to deflect a barrage from the Rush's gatling guns for at least several seconds before being overwhelmeld, so being capable of momentarily stopping one of Brunhild's casual strikes adds up. Which means Mikoto vs Brunhild doesn't disprove anything, and in fact, supports Saints being that strong. Kamachi Mega-Crossover Chapter 4 Part 4:

"Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!?"

Misaka Mikoto gave an out-of-character shout.

As one of the seven Level 5s, she was known as the Railgun, Academy City's #3.

However, even her life was in danger when attacked by one of the colossal weapons that had ended the nuclear age.

She was up against the Rush, an Information Alliance Second-Generation Object.

Its main cannons were rapid-fire beam Gatling guns created by strapping together five barrels each. A single shot contained enough firepower to melt a warship into an orange puddle and it was accurately firing them at a rate of several thousand every minute.

Beam weapons were a military technology using electron beams.

That was good news for Mikoto who could control electricity. The barrage would normally have been unavoidable, but they bent "unnaturally" just before hitting and flew off in a different direction.

However, this was far from a perfect defense.

"Oh, crap!! This thing's more powerful than that #4! I'm going to be pushed back at this rate!!"

8th: Both Thor and Silvia are outright stated to hold back with their usual fighting styles, this is not something you can just ignore. You can try to kill an opponent and still be holding back your strength, just like a master martial artist can beat a child without actually making any significant effort.

I'm going to have to go to bed soon, but I think that I have made my point clear. IMO so far you have not presented any decent evidence to question Saints being Mountain level, since as I have explained the scene with Mikoto actually supports my argument. Your other point, Kanzaki fighting Gabriel not counting just because she uses a sword and its wings are made of ice, makes no sense to me.

 

[LazyHunter]

One question that's been bothering me for a while. Why are the To Aru profiles here so different fro the ones at ACF? ACF ranks the Othinus as 2-A and the Magic Gods as 2-A and possibly Tier 1, while we rank Othinus as 2-C and the Magic Gods at just 2-A. Why the discrepancy?

I honestly don't know since I can't read Russian, but we've had several discussions about the matter and decided that the current rankings of the magic gods are appropiate. I also don't know what criteria they use for their rankings as they have Yakumi Hisako as 6-A, whatever that means in their tiering system.

The novels are unclear as to the structure of the universe in regards to timelines, with some evidence seemingly indicating there's more than one but so far not explaining it properly. Funnily enough, it seems the crossover with Virtual-On goes in that subject with a little more detail than the main story.

 

[Dpolaristar]

Once again, substantial evidence puts Saints as Mountain level. I'll list my points with some quotes from the novels to prove them. Sorry for the incoming wall of text, but I want to put all my points and evidence in one place.
1st: Kanzaki Kaori can go toe to toe with Misah Kreutzev, who can flatten mountains. And yes, if you read the novels you'll see that Misha's normal attacks are described that way. OT4 Chapter 3 Part 3:

Each wing was thoroughly infused with the Power of God, and each attack could flatten mountains and carve valleys like Divine Judgment. Even if it was on the battlefield as per normal, Kanzaki, who often caused enemies to back away in fear, was now stiff with tension. If it were anyone else, the killing intent released would have caused the person to faint.

2nd: Kanzaki Kaori is stated by his former friends and close companions of the Amakusa Church to have fought an evil dragon capable of swallowing up a mountain, presumably killing it. OT7 Chapter 3 Part 1:

Do we need a reason? There's no reason from the beginning. This is how the Amakusa does things, especially for our generation. You're asking why our Priestess was able to be our leader at such a young age? In order to fulfill a child's wish, she dared to go against an evil dragon that can swallow a mountai. In order to fulfill the dying leader's wish, she was willing to protect a small village against thousands of enemies. Along the way, we were walking in her shadow. Although the time in which she led us was short, to us, it's eternal... Because of her, we're able to walk onto the path of righteousness; we're not being led astray, and we don't abuse our power. While it's easy to just say it, she taught this through action. She used her actions to show that humans can be strong and benevolent, that doing this isn't difficult.

Yes, given the lack of details on the fight this is not a valid determining factor on its ow. But it supports Saints being Mountain level when you also have evidences number 1 and 3 to go with it.

3rd: More importantly, and the evidence you have ignored twice, the calc that puts Hel, a member of Gremlin, as Mountain level. Hel's attack was blocked by Silvia's magic and Saints are superior to most normal magicians, to the point "being capable of fighting a Saint directly" is a mark of strength for the most powerful magicians such as Knight Leader, Carissa, Elizard and Maiden of Versailles. It's one of the ways magicians are measured up both in-series and by fans for a reason. All Saints so far are more or less comparable to one another, so Silvia's feat can be applied to other Saints, proving the two aforementioned Mountain level statements.

4th: I've already explained how one of your initial pieces of evidence, the comparison of a Saint to nuclear weapons, makes much more sense in that Saints and nukes are both strategic assets that can decide a large conflict and a symbol of power for the organization that can claim to have them in their arsenal.

5th: Your argument of "Kanzaki used a sword and the wings were made of water" honestly doesn't make any sense to me because this is fiction and both characters are using magic. Kanzaki's sword is not a normal sword and Grabriel's ice wings are not just normal ice, so I see absolutely no reason for them not to be as powerful as the previous statements and calc make them out to be. You are the one who has to prove Gabriel's ice wings are that fragile when all signs indicate that it's not

6th: You may be confusing Attack Potency with DC, they are not the same. A character doesn't necessarily require to bust a mountain to be mountain level, they can be mountain level for fighting and harming characters who are mountain level, which is the case here.

7th: The fact that Saints usually hold back their strength when fighting lower level characters should be obvious to anyone reading the novels. Brunhild liquified an artificial Valkyrie (who should be much tougher than a normal human) with a kick and is stated to be capable of bending a tanker in two with a single punch. Thor thought that a serious punch from Silvia would explode his arm. However, Kanzaki, Acqua of the Back and Silvia herself have been shown to be perfectly capable of holding back their physical strength so as to not kill humans with their blows, such as when Kanzaki stomped Touma (since she doesn't kill), when Acqua stomped Touma and the Amakusa (he wasn't trying to kill them) and when Silvia stomped Touma (since she wanted to pummel him and make him suffer before killing him). Thus is much more reasonable for Brunhild to hold back when fighting Mikoto than not. Also, once more, Mikoto could barely stop Brunhild's claymore for a second before Brunhild's strength proved too much for her, so Brunhild was obviously much stronger. NT6 Chapter 7 Part 7:

"That sword!!"

Brunhild Eiktobel was aiming for Mikoto's neck with her claymore, but the sword stopped in midair.

But once again it did not last even a second.

As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

Fun fact, Mikoto can use magnetism to deflect a barrage from the Rush's gatling guns for at least several seconds before being overwhelmeld, so being capable of momentarily stopping one of Brunhild's casual strikes adds up. Which means Mikoto vs Brunhild doesn't disprove anything, and in fact, supports Saints being that strong. Kamachi Mega-Crossover Chapter 4 Part 4:

"Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!?"

Misaka Mikoto gave an out-of-character shout.

As one of the seven Level 5s, she was known as the Railgun, Academy City's #3.

However, even her life was in danger when attacked by one of the colossal weapons that had ended the nuclear age.

She was up against the Rush, an Information Alliance Second-Generation Object.

Its main cannons were rapid-fire beam Gatling guns created by strapping together five barrels each. A single shot contained enough firepower to melt a warship into an orange puddle and it was accurately firing them at a rate of several thousand every minute.

Beam weapons were a military technology using electron beams.

That was good news for Mikoto who could control electricity. The barrage would normally have been unavoidable, but they bent "unnaturally" just before hitting and flew off in a different direction.

However, this was far from a perfect defense.

"Oh, crap!! This thing's more powerful than that #4! I'm going to be pushed back at this rate!!"

8th: Both Thor and Silvia are outright stated to hold back with their usual fighting styles, this is not something you can just ignore. You can try to kill an opponent and still be holding back your strength, just like a master martial artist can beat a child without actually making any significant effort.

I'm going to have to go to bed soon, but I think that I have made my point clear. IMO so far you have not presented any decent evidence to question Saints being Mountain level, since as I have explained the scene with Mikoto actually supports my argument. Your other point, Kanzaki fighting Gabriel not counting just because she uses a sword and its wings are made of ice, makes no sense to me.

I hadn't read that part of the Manga......Well the liquifying Valkeryie's and Tankers seem to be pretty good evidence. I'm not sure about Hel though.....Always thought the magic barrier's had nothing to do with strength and that is was the Telesma that did the bulk of the work.

The Whole sword thing was me saying that slicing power can damage things with less force that might normally be immune to blunt force. It's part of physics. That pressure(In this case slicing power) is often more important then blunt force.

I didn't recall you making the other arguments in your previous post. I still don't think it makes sense for Brunhild to hold back on Mikoto since she was going to kill her anyway, and yes I;m aware that Mikoto just barely stopped it for a second I just thought that Mountain level should be even well beyond that. And Durability and striking power are indeed linked. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you can destroy a mountain you also need to be able to handle the opposite reaction of the force on your own body. With a blade this isn't the case since with a blade you take a smaller amount of force and focus it on a smaller area.

 

[Dpolaristar]

Hey guys how would you rank Seike from The Accelerator Manga? She claims her friction could melt any substance on earth. (I'm assuming she means scientific substances and not magical artifacts since she isn't familiar with the magic side.) Does that include objects that can surivive re entry and what not? How literally should we take her claim or should we see it as hyperbole boasting?

 

[GreatestSin]

Seems more or less the same as someone stated. Also Accelerator has shown to deflect Gravity when he wants, and According to Relativity Gravity doesn't exist except as an emmergent phenonenum from Objects of Large enough Mass bending Space. So basically Accelerator can resist object's "falling" towards the bent space if he wants, of course if we assume Accelerator's reflection isn't a No Limits Fallacy then bending space at a certain rate can bypass this. But unless your spatial manipulator can create a singularity I don't see it affecting Accel's reflection.

i dont think that brining RL physics into this is a good idea :/

^the thing is: she didnt show much about her power, at most we could add a "likely higher" to her current powerlvl but thats it, but theoretically if she can truly create as much friction as she wants than it should theoretically be able to melt anything...