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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter LazyHunter
- Start date
- Status
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- Thread starter
- #322
Yeah, NT9 was a big jump in power for the verse and showed how scary a universal reality warper can be. I'm glad that so far things have calmed down, power levels have been dialed back a little and we're back to lower scale/tier fighting, it's more interesting that way.
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hm, Should we remove the second note about the Eurasia busting on Accels page, and isn't that what we base his dura off of already? if not I don't quite understand the need to over complicate the feat. and under contention from who? I don't even know.
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- #325
So I'm finishing the OT pages. Since Bayloupe and Lessar scale to Itsuwa I'll make their pages last. That leaves the Pope and Vasilisa, I think, since other magicians like Elizalina, Lancis and Floris are basically featless. Any ideas for the Pope's stats?
Also, I'm thinking of doing the Tarantula (DA mech) page. Gatling gun would probably be Wall level due to how it shreds Anti-Skill through their shields. Would the String Juicers cutting reinforced ceramic be notable?
Last, do you think we should change the Itsuwa and Kanzaki pictures for these two?
Also, I'm thinking of doing the Tarantula (DA mech) page. Gatling gun would probably be Wall level due to how it shreds Anti-Skill through their shields. Would the String Juicers cutting reinforced ceramic be notable?
Last, do you think we should change the Itsuwa and Kanzaki pictures for these two?
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Great job on the Simple survey profiles, I love them. Can't wait for Zashiki Warashi profiles... I guess quite a few characters there won't require much discussion about durability...
About the pictures: Even though I subjectively prefer itsuwas current one I guess full body pictures are really the thing to go for, so I am in favor of using the two.
About the Pope: Durability wise there is this:
Staring at the other side of the thoroughly destroyed wall of Vatican City, Fiamma realized: The damage was too minimal. The shock wave he emitted should have leveled several hundred meters of Roman streets outside Vatican City to rubble, but only the interior of Vatican City was damaged; everything outside it was completely unharmed.
"So you drew the entirety of my attack upon yourself? Such an impressive bastard."
What should I make out of this? Given that vatican city is only 0.44 km^2 big I would guess that the radius is only 574 m, but if its fiamma doing it I have the feeling like the shuckwave likely does a bit more than orianas...
If I use the same method as for orianas calc I get Large Building level still.
But Fiammas attack didn't have the purpose of creating a shockwave other than orianas, so I think nuke calculator might also be acceptable given that it likely results from an explosion or something.
With that I would get 0.009 megatons or about 9000 tons of TNT, which would be town level. That actually seems like the more appropiate result here.
For normal attack potency you can likely only scale him to at least the higest value we have for fodder mages.
For the tarantula I have nothing. Wall level for the cutters is good. Even with crashing at full speed (assuming that is 50 km/h or something) it doesn't go above wall level.
About the pictures: Even though I subjectively prefer itsuwas current one I guess full body pictures are really the thing to go for, so I am in favor of using the two.
About the Pope: Durability wise there is this:
Staring at the other side of the thoroughly destroyed wall of Vatican City, Fiamma realized: The damage was too minimal. The shock wave he emitted should have leveled several hundred meters of Roman streets outside Vatican City to rubble, but only the interior of Vatican City was damaged; everything outside it was completely unharmed.
"So you drew the entirety of my attack upon yourself? Such an impressive bastard."
What should I make out of this? Given that vatican city is only 0.44 km^2 big I would guess that the radius is only 574 m, but if its fiamma doing it I have the feeling like the shuckwave likely does a bit more than orianas...
If I use the same method as for orianas calc I get Large Building level still.
But Fiammas attack didn't have the purpose of creating a shockwave other than orianas, so I think nuke calculator might also be acceptable given that it likely results from an explosion or something.
With that I would get 0.009 megatons or about 9000 tons of TNT, which would be town level. That actually seems like the more appropiate result here.
For normal attack potency you can likely only scale him to at least the higest value we have for fodder mages.
For the tarantula I have nothing. Wall level for the cutters is good. Even with crashing at full speed (assuming that is 50 km/h or something) it doesn't go above wall level.
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- Thread starter
- #327
Thanks. Yeah, there's only the last volume left, but so far the only notable Durability feats are Wall level for two Top Tiers, so ZW characters have pretty much nothing in that front, like most AC's espers. Though all supernatural creatures in ZW have invulnerability to conventional weapons and laws of physics + Type 1 immortality (Having no concept of lifespan), that's something. Plus some interesting hax for such a low-level verse.
I agree with the Pope's Durability probably being more appropiate that way. I mean, the Vatican has to have some pretty good magical defenses that Fiamma would just blow through (For example, the London Cathedral and Windsor Castle have ones on the level of Index's Walking Church). I was going to put his AP at Unknown given the only spell he has shown doesn't really cause any physical destruction, but I guess "At least High 8-C" like Vasilisa is better than nothing.
Wall level AP then. I'll give it Building level Durability, that thing has to be at least as tough as a HsPS-15 and the Anti.Skill were requesting rockets to deal with it.
I agree with the Pope's Durability probably being more appropiate that way. I mean, the Vatican has to have some pretty good magical defenses that Fiamma would just blow through (For example, the London Cathedral and Windsor Castle have ones on the level of Index's Walking Church). I was going to put his AP at Unknown given the only spell he has shown doesn't really cause any physical destruction, but I guess "At least High 8-C" like Vasilisa is better than nothing.
Wall level AP then. I'll give it Building level Durability, that thing has to be at least as tough as a HsPS-15 and the Anti.Skill were requesting rockets to deal with it.
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In fact,before NT9 I already realized Toaru would include a lot of high tier characters.
At that time,most of the threads were building characters at around esper lv 4-5 or saint's tier,and they believed that tier was enough.
In 2012,I opened a crossover,used Morisato Keiichi's team(Ah! My Goddess),considered they can do good both on magic and science.And almost everyone told me that's stomp,as they believed Toaru's characters could almost do nothing against Belldandy,so I had to give up.But today we know that a team should have such tier at least in order to stand in front of Aleister Crowley.(In fact,Goddess team would not attack fiercely from beginning of the battle,as Belldandy is almost a pacifist and she would hope to solve problems without violence,so they would use their abilities wisely to achieve their goals and avoid most of the possible battles.)
And at that time I already suggested to discuss stronger sides's crossover to Toaru,includng Haruhi Suzumiya,Doraemon,Nyaruko and etc.As I predicted it would need at least tier 2 to deal with Acdamic City's dark side.Of course at that time almost everyone felt that's completely stomp for Toaru's characters.
At that time,most of the threads were building characters at around esper lv 4-5 or saint's tier,and they believed that tier was enough.
In 2012,I opened a crossover,used Morisato Keiichi's team(Ah! My Goddess),considered they can do good both on magic and science.And almost everyone told me that's stomp,as they believed Toaru's characters could almost do nothing against Belldandy,so I had to give up.But today we know that a team should have such tier at least in order to stand in front of Aleister Crowley.(In fact,Goddess team would not attack fiercely from beginning of the battle,as Belldandy is almost a pacifist and she would hope to solve problems without violence,so they would use their abilities wisely to achieve their goals and avoid most of the possible battles.)
And at that time I already suggested to discuss stronger sides's crossover to Toaru,includng Haruhi Suzumiya,Doraemon,Nyaruko and etc.As I predicted it would need at least tier 2 to deal with Acdamic City's dark side.Of course at that time almost everyone felt that's completely stomp for Toaru's characters.
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- #329
Belldandy and the others would still stomp Toaru now, their true selves are 10-11 dimensional. I don't know enough about the other series to judge, but I wouldn't exactly consider Aleister and Aiwas as representatives of AC's dark side, that is just one of Aleister's tools.
It's still funny to see how the verse's power changed so much in 1-2 novels, especially since when NT9 first came out a ton of downplayers appeared trying to claim everything was just an illusion that hadn't actually happened because of how the novel described Phases. Even now they are still some around making ridiculous claims. Seeing someone post-NT12 claim that Potterverse would beat Toaru's Magic Side was hilarious, just the mental image of Voldemort or Dumbledore trying to defeat Carissa or other high tier magicians is priceless, and the guy was claiming that they could defeat Fiamma and Aleister. I think this happens a lot more with Toaru because there's a lot of people who have just watched the anime and thus have no idea of how strong some of the verse's characters truly are, as most of the big stuff only happens later.
It's still funny to see how the verse's power changed so much in 1-2 novels, especially since when NT9 first came out a ton of downplayers appeared trying to claim everything was just an illusion that hadn't actually happened because of how the novel described Phases. Even now they are still some around making ridiculous claims. Seeing someone post-NT12 claim that Potterverse would beat Toaru's Magic Side was hilarious, just the mental image of Voldemort or Dumbledore trying to defeat Carissa or other high tier magicians is priceless, and the guy was claiming that they could defeat Fiamma and Aleister. I think this happens a lot more with Toaru because there's a lot of people who have just watched the anime and thus have no idea of how strong some of the verse's characters truly are, as most of the big stuff only happens later.
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Yes,a lot of them even know little about Toaru's main line,as they enter from project-railgun.It's a difficult task for us to explain there are a lot of characters who can beat Misaka Mikoto in Toaru.
In fact,at that time,although I know Ah!My Goddess team can stomp Toaru,my plan is to follow Ah!My Goddess's style,so they won't stomp,instead,they would organize carefully to finish their plan,guild Toaru's characters to their fate without being noticed,and avoid violence at most time,as Norns did.And I believe the most dangerous member of that team is Morisato Keiichi,who is similar with Hamazura Shiage,but significantly better in many ways.
In fact,at that time,although I know Ah!My Goddess team can stomp Toaru,my plan is to follow Ah!My Goddess's style,so they won't stomp,instead,they would organize carefully to finish their plan,guild Toaru's characters to their fate without being noticed,and avoid violence at most time,as Norns did.And I believe the most dangerous member of that team is Morisato Keiichi,who is similar with Hamazura Shiage,but significantly better in many ways.
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- #332
Kuriba's experiment is freaky. I wonder if the scientists really made an artificial/copied soul like the Magic Side can already do. After all, in NT15 Enshuu turned her reformatory cell into what's basically a science grimoire.
Forgot to do this earlier, but I made a content revision thread about Stiyl and Kreutune
Forgot to do this earlier, but I made a content revision thread about Stiyl and Kreutune
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- #333
Made the Anti-Art Attachment page, so only Salome and Yuiitsu left from the new volume.
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Well, you can at the very least scale salomes speed from accel during one of her chains.
The discussion over MHS combat speed I will do on the weekend (except I find time earlier).
Yuiitsu would get something like redirection durability per her suit, which would be equal to Salomes AP, I guess?
For salome at least building level Attack potency with her chain going.
Can we scale speed of salome during 1st or 2nd chain to yuiitsu?
I guess that would be the basic stats. Not sure if we have something for durability.
Another question: We have misaka listed as building level with railgun, building to multi-city block with iron sand and town with lightning. What is the "Presumably Building level" for? Her magnetism? If that's the case we should probably just write that.
The discussion over MHS combat speed I will do on the weekend (except I find time earlier).
Yuiitsu would get something like redirection durability per her suit, which would be equal to Salomes AP, I guess?
For salome at least building level Attack potency with her chain going.
Can we scale speed of salome during 1st or 2nd chain to yuiitsu?
I guess that would be the basic stats. Not sure if we have something for durability.
Another question: We have misaka listed as building level with railgun, building to multi-city block with iron sand and town with lightning. What is the "Presumably Building level" for? Her magnetism? If that's the case we should probably just write that.
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- #335
So Salome would probably be:
-AP: Street or Wall level with Internal Offering, up to at least Building level with External Offering active
-Speed: High Hypersonic speed (Fought and kept up with Accel, dodged Mikoto's lightning) with External Offering active
-Durability: Unsure. Got an arm casually ripped off by Accel and her body was blown off by Yuiitsu's magic and the AAA railgun.
Yuiitsu
-AP: Street level physically and with Sample Shoggoth, Wall level with UL exploder + World Rejector from Kakeru. Tricky part is her fake magic god spells, which probably be the deciding factor for Salome's Durability. We can also list it for Mikoto's iron sand shields' Durability since she blocked one of them.
-Speed: Could keep up and fight Salome in melee, so likely High Hypersonic speed, or at least reactions.
-Durability: I can't recall any durability feat for her so maybe Street level.
I think that "Presumably Building level" is for the Railgun. It was "Presumably Building, likely Large Building level with Railgun" before that calc was linked, so we could just cut it out now that we have a calc for it.
-AP: Street or Wall level with Internal Offering, up to at least Building level with External Offering active
-Speed: High Hypersonic speed (Fought and kept up with Accel, dodged Mikoto's lightning) with External Offering active
-Durability: Unsure. Got an arm casually ripped off by Accel and her body was blown off by Yuiitsu's magic and the AAA railgun.
Yuiitsu
-AP: Street level physically and with Sample Shoggoth, Wall level with UL exploder + World Rejector from Kakeru. Tricky part is her fake magic god spells, which probably be the deciding factor for Salome's Durability. We can also list it for Mikoto's iron sand shields' Durability since she blocked one of them.
-Speed: Could keep up and fight Salome in melee, so likely High Hypersonic speed, or at least reactions.
-Durability: I can't recall any durability feat for her so maybe Street level.
I think that "Presumably Building level" is for the Railgun. It was "Presumably Building, likely Large Building level with Railgun" before that calc was linked, so we could just cut it out now that we have a calc for it.
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The Shutaura page lacks a key, doesn't it?
For the stats: As said yuuitsu would get something like "Building level via attack deflecting attacks with her coat " or something, since like thats he could defend against Salomes attacks.
For Salome durability is likely really unknown, even though the fact that she can take parts of her being ripped of and still keep fighting helps her a bit.
For speed scaling I am uncertain in salomes case. It would scale to yuuitsu as well as clair, but I am not sure how they would gain the capabilities to perform like that.
For salomes speed at least that, one can possibly also go for close combat speed given that she didn't just run away form accelerator, but also kept up in battle with him before that for quite a bit.
For the stats: As said yuuitsu would get something like "Building level via attack deflecting attacks with her coat " or something, since like thats he could defend against Salomes attacks.
For Salome durability is likely really unknown, even though the fact that she can take parts of her being ripped of and still keep fighting helps her a bit.
For speed scaling I am uncertain in salomes case. It would scale to yuuitsu as well as clair, but I am not sure how they would gain the capabilities to perform like that.
For salomes speed at least that, one can possibly also go for close combat speed given that she didn't just run away form accelerator, but also kept up in battle with him before that for quite a bit.
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- #337
Oops, fixing that now.
It does seem weird for Yuiitsu and Claire to match her if she's that fast, since those two don't feel like they are at that level physically. Maybe Salome matching Accelerator is just an outlier, it's not like Kamachi realizes how fast he has made Saint-level fighters and Accelerator/Kakine/Kazakiri/Gabriel. Remember in NT1 when Silvercross managed to run away from Accel with a powered suit that could move at 750 kph? Yeah... And Mikoto kept up with Salome better than she did with Brunhild.
Without counting Accelerator I think her best feat would probably be catching Mikoto's Railgun, so maybe we should put her as Supersonic+? Sounds more believable for Claire and Yuiitsu to scale to that through "plant body" and "Sample Shoggoth" shenanigans. She should probably still get the appropiate reactions for reacting to Mikoto's lightning & fighting Accel.
It does seem weird for Yuiitsu and Claire to match her if she's that fast, since those two don't feel like they are at that level physically. Maybe Salome matching Accelerator is just an outlier, it's not like Kamachi realizes how fast he has made Saint-level fighters and Accelerator/Kakine/Kazakiri/Gabriel. Remember in NT1 when Silvercross managed to run away from Accel with a powered suit that could move at 750 kph? Yeah... And Mikoto kept up with Salome better than she did with Brunhild.
Without counting Accelerator I think her best feat would probably be catching Mikoto's Railgun, so maybe we should put her as Supersonic+? Sounds more believable for Claire and Yuiitsu to scale to that through "plant body" and "Sample Shoggoth" shenanigans. She should probably still get the appropiate reactions for reacting to Mikoto's lightning & fighting Accel.
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Given that she also has lightning dodgging feats which put her into High Hypersonic+ to Massively Hypersonic range, disappeared from misakas sensing abilities, which usually isn't that easy either, danced so fast that the asphalt burnt and matched accelerator I don't believe in an outlier here.
I mean kamachi even bothered to put in a more less direct comparison in speed of her compared to accelerator, by making accel chase her.
So while kamachi like most authors doesn't realize the specifics I would think he most likely intents her to be on speed levels similar to the fastest characters in the verse.
I don't know about clair, since her fight wasn't very clear on things, but maybe we should scale yuuitsu in reactions only and leave it at combat speed being a likely outlier in terms of scaling to other people.
(wasn't that powered suit thing in NT1 explained by accel not wanting to waste the time of his ability on that? I think it was mentioned there that he could chase a jet or something...)
I mean kamachi even bothered to put in a more less direct comparison in speed of her compared to accelerator, by making accel chase her.
So while kamachi like most authors doesn't realize the specifics I would think he most likely intents her to be on speed levels similar to the fastest characters in the verse.
I don't know about clair, since her fight wasn't very clear on things, but maybe we should scale yuuitsu in reactions only and leave it at combat speed being a likely outlier in terms of scaling to other people.
(wasn't that powered suit thing in NT1 explained by accel not wanting to waste the time of his ability on that? I think it was mentioned there that he could chase a jet or something...)
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- #339
Claire seems to be able to match Salome's speed and vanish from Mikoto's perspective, so High Hypersonic seems possible.
The silence lasted a few seconds.
After a dull sound, the two of them vanished from the bridge.
(Into…the river!?)
Mikoto immediately looked to the side, but she could only see a slight disturbance in the moon floating on the dark water's surface. Not even an electromagnetic scan told her what those two were doing, but it seemed they were fighting on top of the water, not in it.
I think I remember that mention too, but I believe NT1 Accel couldn't catch Silvercross before he got into a tunnel and Accel decided not to risk losing the connection to the Misaka Network while flying at high speeds inside of it.
I made Salome's page, leaving her Durability as unknown for now. Besides her and Kakeru the only ones we could make a page for in the Kamisato Faction so far are Claire and Elza.
The silence lasted a few seconds.
After a dull sound, the two of them vanished from the bridge.
(Into…the river!?)
Mikoto immediately looked to the side, but she could only see a slight disturbance in the moon floating on the dark water's surface. Not even an electromagnetic scan told her what those two were doing, but it seemed they were fighting on top of the water, not in it.
I think I remember that mention too, but I believe NT1 Accel couldn't catch Silvercross before he got into a tunnel and Accel decided not to risk losing the connection to the Misaka Network while flying at high speeds inside of it.
I made Salome's page, leaving her Durability as unknown for now. Besides her and Kakeru the only ones we could make a page for in the Kamisato Faction so far are Claire and Elza.
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Why are the magic gods only universal in durability?
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If we are talking about setting up and creating shields then probably. But what we are talking about here is passive durability, in other words what they can take if the don't do anything. And to such things power just simply doesn't contribute.
If you don't want guns take humans, just because I can punch with twice the power I not necessarily can take twice the punch.
If you don't want guns take humans, just because I can punch with twice the power I not necessarily can take twice the punch.
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On the topic of Durability, what is the reason we list Aleister's as Possibly Multiverse level+, I may have asked this before but I cannot remember now.
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Exactly what stands there. He COULD become a magic god if he wants to. Fact is he isn't a magic god, though. In the end how large the gap between the strongest human magician and your average magic god is is unknown. Not to forget that there are failures as well.
He hasn't shown being as powerful as them, but instead tricked them to kill them.
So all in all a certain in not reasonable here.
He hasn't shown being as powerful as them, but instead tricked them to kill them.
So all in all a certain in not reasonable here.
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I meant his Durability not AP.
I do disagree with what we rate Aleisters AP as, but we've been over it and I don't wanna go over it again
I do disagree with what we rate Aleisters AP as, but we've been over it and I don't wanna go over it again
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Well, for his durability as well for exactly the reasons that are mentioned on his page. He survived an attack from a full power magic god. Then again we don't know if this was the universe destroying kind or anything. High Priest likes to fool around (in the first place the magic gods never seriously intended to attack aleiser or considered him a threat) and given that aleister almost died from the encounter it doesn't really make a good durability feat.
Its a possibility and basically the best we have to give him some stat, but it is by far not certain.
Its a possibility and basically the best we have to give him some stat, but it is by far not certain.
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Except that Niang Niang stated that The High priest got pissed off and tried to kill him.
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Magic gods should be able to fight among themselves.
It's like saying Goku can't bust a planet or survive the destruction of one because he never did such thing (but he fought people who can do this).
It's like saying Goku can't bust a planet or survive the destruction of one because he never did such thing (but he fought people who can do this).
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- #353
At least it's better than 100% Othinus' Durability being unknown for not having any feats. And theoretically the Magic Gods could just use Zombie's spell's side effect to become much harder to kill.
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@Gabriel 00
The difference is that goku did fight people who can do that, as you said, while magic gods never fought each otehr at full power.
@LordAizenSama: Getting pissed of here doesn't mean getting serious. I don't think high priest did anything like changing a phase there and if he seriously tried to kill aleister there is no place in the universe aleister could have safely escaped to. Getting pissed of and trying to kill, can even be things like me trying to swat a fly. Doesn't mean I would instantly blow my house up trying to do so.
The difference is that goku did fight people who can do that, as you said, while magic gods never fought each otehr at full power.
@LordAizenSama: Getting pissed of here doesn't mean getting serious. I don't think high priest did anything like changing a phase there and if he seriously tried to kill aleister there is no place in the universe aleister could have safely escaped to. Getting pissed of and trying to kill, can even be things like me trying to swat a fly. Doesn't mean I would instantly blow my house up trying to do so.
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Niang Niang saw the fight, we didn't. She said he tried to kill Aleister,getting pissed off, losing composure, and trying to kill him would mean hes not holding back. You don't get pissed off and try mildly kill something. Seems pretty straight forward to me that the High priest was actually trying to kill Aleister.
And weren't the Magic Gods trying not to get involved with the real world?
And just because High priest wanted to kill him then, doesn't mean he was going to hunt him down for all eternity. using the example of a house fly, just because i'm trying to kill it doesn't mean I'm going to chase it outside and down the street trying to swat it.
A bit offtopic, but just because Goku's punches don't rip apart the universe with every blow, doesn't mean we don't treat it as universe level.
I think it's easier and simpler to just take Niang's word at face value here, as she had a better view of the fight then we did.
And weren't the Magic Gods trying not to get involved with the real world?
And just because High priest wanted to kill him then, doesn't mean he was going to hunt him down for all eternity. using the example of a house fly, just because i'm trying to kill it doesn't mean I'm going to chase it outside and down the street trying to swat it.
A bit offtopic, but just because Goku's punches don't rip apart the universe with every blow, doesn't mean we don't treat it as universe level.
I think it's easier and simpler to just take Niang's word at face value here, as she had a better view of the fight then we did.
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Things is it just really doesn't fit the fact, that literally no colleteral damage was caused. If we say that because high priest didn't want to influence the real world he didn't rewrite the phase, then his power was limited here. If we say he would do that than the universe would have been destroyed if necessary.
Either way I don't think almost dying from an attack, whichs nature is unknown, is a solid durability feat in any way.
Either way I don't think almost dying from an attack, whichs nature is unknown, is a solid durability feat in any way.
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- #358
So I'm almost finished with Kihara Yuiitsu's page. Does "at least Wall level with magic (Toppled a fence and multiple trees)" sound fine?
Also, thinking about WR, I know that we already note how in Kakeru's page conventional durability won't help if you are a valid target, but would crushing Nephthys' phase she tried to use to kill Kakeru merit something better than Tier 4 or it's an unquantifiable feat? NT13 Epilogue:
In other words, she held it in reserve.
Even after being hit by Aleister's weakening spell, she still had enough power to swap out the phase just once.
(Embed it.)
She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.
(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…)
The voice of her heart was cut off.
She heard a tremendous explosion of sound and her phase was crushed.
"Wha-?"
It was squeezed and crushed.
"…Ah…?"
To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage, but this was something else entirely. That did not explain anything, but it was the only way of expressing it. Nephthys froze in place when she saw it and the boy simply clenched his right hand and opened it once more. It almost looked like he was giving her a greeting.
In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power.
Also, thinking about WR, I know that we already note how in Kakeru's page conventional durability won't help if you are a valid target, but would crushing Nephthys' phase she tried to use to kill Kakeru merit something better than Tier 4 or it's an unquantifiable feat? NT13 Epilogue:
In other words, she held it in reserve.
Even after being hit by Aleister's weakening spell, she still had enough power to swap out the phase just once.
(Embed it.)
She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.
(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…)
The voice of her heart was cut off.
She heard a tremendous explosion of sound and her phase was crushed.
"Wha-?"
It was squeezed and crushed.
"…Ah…?"
To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage, but this was something else entirely. That did not explain anything, but it was the only way of expressing it. Nephthys froze in place when she saw it and the boy simply clenched his right hand and opened it once more. It almost looked like he was giving her a greeting.
In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power.
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Yes, sounds fine.
I am honestly not quite sure how kakeru did that. I mean how would he even produce a shadow above a whole phase?
That said I am not quite sure what to do about it either. We currently have him basically at star level via hax, but quantification of hax is a thing I am uncertain about. One could take his destroying a phase as universe level via hax, but if we write it like that we give the impression he could destroy the universe if he wants to, which is far from true.
Maybe we should could write something like "World rejector can banish effected objects/persons with up to universe level power/durability to other worlds", instead of the current formulation?
I am honestly not quite sure how kakeru did that. I mean how would he even produce a shadow above a whole phase?
That said I am not quite sure what to do about it either. We currently have him basically at star level via hax, but quantification of hax is a thing I am uncertain about. One could take his destroying a phase as universe level via hax, but if we write it like that we give the impression he could destroy the universe if he wants to, which is far from true.
Maybe we should could write something like "World rejector can banish effected objects/persons with up to universe level power/durability to other worlds", instead of the current formulation?
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I'll finish up the page then. I'll also add to Salome's page something I forgot: she copied Amata's technique from Yuiitsu (and that she's unaffected by it, but the former is more interesting).
The first appearance from Kakeru is weird because WR seems to work a bit differently than it does from the next volumes. For example, he stabs Niang-Niang with his hand and slowly exiles her/absorbs her instead of the quick "target area is just gone" that happens just afterwards with Nephthys and in later uses. But given NT14, I'll say physical contact also works for use of WR.
This sentence in particular: "To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage." makes me think that in this case it worked because the phase was being applied over the entire world, and since Kakeru is part of the world, the new phase was automatically in contact with WR. This raises questions about IB not automatically negating phase changes, but since Othinus actually managed to do just that at the end of NT9, it's likely Touma was right and it's a function he doesn't know how to use.
Honestly, we can:
a) Treat the phase crushing as an outlier and disregard it, which IMO seems wrong because of the clear statement: In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power. Also, so far no contradiction on its conditions.
b) Put WR as "Unknown" with a list of feats which would include the phase crushing, banishing the weakened magic gods, IB and AAA (which technically means he banished Crowley's power).
c) Put WR as "affects things up to Universe level AP/Durability" like you said.
It's a rather complicated Hax to rank. It might be best to make a content revision thread and ask for more opinions on this.
The first appearance from Kakeru is weird because WR seems to work a bit differently than it does from the next volumes. For example, he stabs Niang-Niang with his hand and slowly exiles her/absorbs her instead of the quick "target area is just gone" that happens just afterwards with Nephthys and in later uses. But given NT14, I'll say physical contact also works for use of WR.
This sentence in particular: "To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage." makes me think that in this case it worked because the phase was being applied over the entire world, and since Kakeru is part of the world, the new phase was automatically in contact with WR. This raises questions about IB not automatically negating phase changes, but since Othinus actually managed to do just that at the end of NT9, it's likely Touma was right and it's a function he doesn't know how to use.
Honestly, we can:
a) Treat the phase crushing as an outlier and disregard it, which IMO seems wrong because of the clear statement: In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power. Also, so far no contradiction on its conditions.
b) Put WR as "Unknown" with a list of feats which would include the phase crushing, banishing the weakened magic gods, IB and AAA (which technically means he banished Crowley's power).
c) Put WR as "affects things up to Universe level AP/Durability" like you said.
It's a rather complicated Hax to rank. It might be best to make a content revision thread and ask for more opinions on this.
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