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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread

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By the way, I got a question for you people:

who do you think would win in a fight, Pre-Saint Destroyer Acqua Vs Carissa W/Curtana original
 
Well, Carissa with Curtana Original was described as stronger than Acqua, but if there's something Kamachi loves and reminds you of in all of his novels is that greater raw power doesn't automatically grant you victory. The only difference between Pre and Post Saint Destroyer is Ascalon, which is probably a better weapon than the mace. However, that's irrelevant when neither weapon can block Curtana. True, he didn't use the moon spell with Ascalon and that seems like his strongest attack (probably can do it, though), but trying that kind of linear fall attack against someone who ignores durability might be suicide.

He would be able to fight her on his own: in the British Halloween (where he was still recovering from Saint Destroyer) he, Kanzaki and Knight Leader were pushing her back. It would probably be a long fight, but I would give it to Acqua due to better versatility and range of attacks with his water/ice magic, as long as he manages to keep his mace long enough to be able to bat away Curtana like he was doing during their fight (being bigger will make it more vulnerable than Ascalon). Without a weapon I think it would go to Carissa, since I think trying to punch it away would be very risky.

@Gabriel 00

Astro in Hand is more of a hax power, so I don't think speed is really relevant for it when Gabriel can move all the stars in the sky to make a magic circle as easily as it moves Earth to turn day into night. It's not something that can be used to directly affect opponents, unless they are celestial bodies, which would be a very curious match, now that I think about it.
 
Looking up Cendrillon a bit right now.

The invisibility spell Birdway dispelled in NT 3 chapter 1 part 5, do you guys think that was set up by cendrillon herself?
 
She was the only Gremlin member there, and if Mark Space and the other Birdway's nameless subordinates could make themselves invisible, she likely was the one who did it. Invisibility seems to be something easy to achieve by magicians, I think even Alfar, who's not a combat magician, had invisibility. Like flying spells and curses, invisibility likely falls in the "useful spell against normal people, other magicians will likely notice you and dispel it" category.
 
On another note: Would you take birdways notion of cendrillon avoiding a point-blank cluster bomb seriously? That would be a nice speed upgrade for her and Marian.
 
Birdway would likely be considered a reliable source in Index, but then again she wasn't present and was just making a comment over the phone, so I'm not really sure if it's valid. Though the fact Birdway said it so casually means it wouldn't be something unreasonable or surprising for Cendrillon to do.

For Marian, do you think we could use this as a feat? It might support Cendrillon's speed being higher (NT4 Sub.16, the context is one of AC's HsB-02s is being attacked by Marian's Loki's Net and when the pilot notices Marian, who taunts him, he tries to dive into her at full speed as the plane is worn down by the magic item)

As she stood atop the garbage disposal facility roof, Marian Slingeneyer stuck a hand into her overalls from the side and pulled out a gold tool. It was a pair of tongs. The tool was used for handling hot blades and the like when they were in the furnace. The pair Marian held was something like giant pliers.

She lightly swung around the two handles like nunchuks before closing the tongs in front of her face.

The end tightly held a sharp fragment of aircraft materials only about 13 cm long.

That was all that remained of Rokudou Ryuuichi's final efforts.

When she looked at the fragment that caused the blowing snow to evaporate immediately, Marian whistled.

"That was close. I almost tried to grab it with my bare hands, but the friction heated this up to over 1000 degrees I'm betting."

ED: I do think that while she might have good reactions, we might need to downgrade Marian's normal speed, since she doesn't really display superior combat speeds to Touma or Maria in her fights with them.
 
Hmm.. yes we probably should downgarde marian. It was to this point based on her defeating cendrillon, but I misremebered how she fought her. Not much movement was involved on marians part.

About the quote: We don't really know what happened there, it could very well be that the pilot in the end missed his target, as far as I see it.


Edit: So I guess Cendrillon is Supersonic+, possibly Hypersonic+ for at least being able to dodge bullets to possibly evading a point-blank clusterbomb and Marian would be the same, but just in reactions?
 
@LazyHunter i'm talking about this:

  • God's Purge: Also called Sweep. After moving the celestial bodies in the sky, Gabriel uses the lights of the moved stars as a magic array, and turns each star in the sky into arrows of fire that rain down upon its target. The spell is casted in several waves, each one made of up to eleven consecutive shots of tens of millions of fire arrows, with about 30 seconds of lag between them as Gabriel prepares the next wave. This spell is capable of turning an entire planet into ashes upon finishing the activation.
 
I don't think the stars are literally being turned into flaming arrows or the arrows are coming from the stars, that's just a way to describe the attack. The arrows likely come from the magic array/circle Gabriel draws up in the sky by moving the stars, and the magic array in World War III was described as simply being higher up in the sky than the Star of Bethlehem, which was 7000 meters above the ground.
 
I was wondering who is the strongest among the level 5 ? i know at least that level 5 boys are stronger than girls but i am in a mess when it's come to the girls So how the list will be for the level 5 it the rank were based on the strength ?

i view them like this 1- accel 2-kakine 3-gunha 4-mugino 5-mikoto 6-misaki

And as said before i am not sure about the girls
 
The girls? According to the series, Mugino has more raw power than Mikoto, but has to hold back so as to not blow herself up like she did fighting Hamazura, so she's not that much stronger than Mikoto, who has a much more versatile ability and lacks Mugino's arrogance and incredibly short temper, making her a better fighter in general. Also, unless Mugino can bs a way for her esper power to protect her fom Misaki, Misaki can likely beat her by pressing a button. Raw power is not a good way to judge how battles will go in Kamachi's series.

Raw power: Mugino > Mikoto > Misaki

IMO Overall: Mikoto > Mugino > Misaki
 
so in a head on battle mugino will beat mikoto ? but she have to hurt herself in order to do that ? of course can make a better use of her power but to me it doesn't seem like she can take mugino head to head

" Raw power is not a good way to judge how battles will go in Kamachi series."

some thing that i really like in this series
 
Mugino technically is a electric type esper, so it is well imaginable that she can have the same type of protection misaka has against misaki, even though probably weaker.

In a way I can imagine that misakis power actually doesn't directly works against any of the current level 5.

Pre-refrigerator Kakine is the only one I can not see having a defense against it.

(Gunha probably has a defense just by determination or something)
 
@ZERO7772

Take into account that the fight between them in the Railgun manga was not a good indicator of how the fight would normally go. Mikoto was tired from destroying facilities and had to spend some of her already diminishing stamina fighting Frenda, while Mugino got screwed by Frenda's mistake of leaving her traps behind. A fight between them at 100% would probably be a lot closer and harder for both of them, and would likely come to things like luck and environement or Mikoto getting the better of Mugino because of the later's temper and arrogance.

I agree with you, that's one of the reason why I like Toaru and the other Kamachi's series. One of my favorite weapons in the whole series is actually Richard Brave's Lævateinn, because it embodies so much about the style of the series' battles. Stiyl's fight with him was great.

@DontTalk

Yeah, Gunha would probably shrug off Misaki trying to control him and explain it as Misaki not having enough guts to control him or something like that. Mugino might be able to protect herself, but given that as far as we know she doesn't have a passive barrier like Mikoto I would leave it as a maybe.

It's weird to think that Kakine might not have a defense. Like Mugino, he might not have a passive defense, but would possibly be able to prepare one, something like a Dark Matter helmet to block Misaki's power like the ones the researchers working with her had.
 
Gunha power are ridiculous why can't he just get over accel barrier with guts and one shot him ? seriously we need some explanation about his power
 
lazy hunter : i agree it wasn't a fair fight but misaka also used frenda toys for her advantage which give it her the upper hand for while once she was done with the toys she could only run from the crazy b!tch

Though i agree he arrogant would be one of her main weakness "which is why she lost to hamazura "

And talking about arrogant shouldn't we add this accel weakens in his profile ?i maen pre-head accel "he lost to touma mainly because of that " pre-head shout accel is very arrogant
 
Yeah. we should probably add arrogance and lack of fighting skills/experience in general to pre-headshot Accel, as he only started fighting smart after he got his ass kicked by Touma and Amata + Ritoku almost killing him.
 
eh I wouldn't say a lack of experience, hes fought over 10,000 battles, But Arrogance, sure. and it's not like he really needs fighting skills. May confuse people who view the profile.
 
For experience I meant that part of Accelerator's problem with Touma in the first fight is that he was so used to stomping people with just his passive reflection or one actual offensive move that he's kind of lost when that doesn't work with Touma and it takes him a while to adapt, since he's not used to actually having to try fighting someone. But, yeah, might be a little confusing for people out of context.
 
Yeah I get your point, and your right aswell, but let's face it if anyone of similiar tiering can bypass his barrier hes pretty much screwed anyway regardless of his fighting skills or street prowess. So it's probably not worth mentioning I think
 
LordAizenSama said:
eh I wouldn't say a lack of experience, hes fought over 10,000 battles, But Arrogance, sure. and it's not like he really needs fighting skills. May confuse people who view the profile.
Click to expand...
Dude he was just standing during all these 10,00 fightsnot that he actually did try in any of themi think we should add it he have 0 experience in fighting and he need itseveral characters in the series were able break his barrier and the he was screwed "except for his battle with kakine where he finally learned how to put his power to use same for ritoku "

With touma it was a real joke !touma was able to take him off guard because he believed he is reflection would workand then what ? he went panic and don't know what to dohe was trying to take touma in a close range even though he is no match for him in that aspect even touma mention that point as he use to stomp everyone with his reflection and when some one break it he didn't know that to do

Then again why even bothering dealing with him in close compat ? he should just to keep a distant with him and Continue what he was doingi

I would say if kakine faced with pre-head shout accel he would kicked his asskakine can break accel barrier in a serval ways rather than just punches
 
^touma broke his barrier, big deal, hes what, street level? one hit from anyone remotely near his current tier who is capable of bypassing his barrier is going to win anyway, his lack of street fighting won't matter because he would of already lost before that weakness would even become relevant. add that to the fact this would sound confusing to random people viewing the profile seeing " he doesn't know how to fight??" and theres really no point I can see In doing so.

as for kakine beating PreHeadshot Accelerator, I doubt you're taking into account the fact he wouldn't be tied down by preventing civilian casualties or preventing destruction like he was in the Lightnovel fight. There was a reason why Kakine never tried fighting Accelerator before, and why he tried using Last order as a way to gain a upper hand.
 
By the way, do we have a calc or anything for Accelerators 5 mins rotational energy attack? I seem to recall people having it in the exaton range, so that would be a upgrade to Large/Multi Continent level if it is the case.
 
There were some around in the OBD, but there was always a bit of confusion. I recalced it recently and the current stat is correct, as far as I can tell.

On another note, should I list Cendrillon as Gremlin?
 
oh, could I grab a link to that?

and for cendrillion,maybe unaffiliated with in brackets saying former gremlin member? (although this is kinda pointless if I happen to make more thumbnails for them, which I probably will sometime)
 
I made the recalc just for myself to see if something changed through the AP revision, so I don't have it noted down.

But it is around 1.7712996442977468408*10^27J, if my first (apart from that absolutely not legit) calc on this side can be trusted. You find it here (if you want to link it to something I would create a seperate blog post)

Knew not deleting that calc would come in handy one day...
 
ah yes I remember that calc, alright then no problem.

On Second thought though Cendrillion May just be better off listed under gremlin
 
Well wether I put her to others or Gremlin I probably should use a fitting picture, else it looks bad.

Mind creating one? ^^
 
Well, I updated Marian's page as best as I could. The Large Building AP for base seems off, her strikes with the golden tools are more of a durability bypassing against humans rather than raw power, so I would put her base as Street level with a note on the effects of the magic on humans. There's the attack that cuts through the entire gas station Touma and Othinus were in (NT10C13), but it's unclear if it was her or Mjolnir who did it (though Mjolnir didn't help in Marian's fight with Touma and was content with watching how things developed).

"At least Large Building" seems a good estimate for her scabbard attack, as it's described as cutting through the background and the facility she and Touma were in like if someone was cutting a photograph with scissors, and the lightning bolt that charges up the sword is already Wall level (breaks through the facility's domed roof). I agree with leaving unsheathed Dainsleif as Unknown, as its basically described as "super powerful, but weaker than Gungnir", and its only feat is slicing the Titan's arm and possibly shattering the entire world like glass due to power overload by summoning calamities without a barrier (which would kill Marian, so not really an useful option in battle).

Cendrillon (and Saronia if we make her page) should be listed under Gremlin, since they were their pawns. We should change the description of Cendrillon's Durability, as the explosion did harm her (she was described as "battered", with skin burns and a melted dress) and defeated her even if she was still in one piece. Though her Cinderella magic was weakened at the time, so maybe something like "Survived fifty tons of airplane fuel exploding while her magic was weakened".
 
About Cendrillon:

I guess we should differentiate there. Just getting hit by the tanker truck driving 200 km/h should be small building level though.

About Marian:

For the stats with Dáinsleif I agree. There is no need for stats with draupnir, I believe, given that it will be the same as with Dáinsleif given that she just used it to summon that sword.

For her base stats one should consider that Lokis net can effectively take down HsB (or were it HsF?) So that would give her a bit of normal AP.
 
Yeah, that's why I left Draupnir as simply another state with different equipment.

They were HsB-07s. Problem is we have no durability listed for them or the HsFs, since besides Loki's Net I think they were only destroyed by Gabriel. So we would first have to decide what Durability they would have.
 
Hmm... hard question. They could fly sharp corners right? In that case they would have to be more durable than normal airplanes. So at least wall level (they should be able to at least take some bullets like normal airplanes), possibly higher.
 
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