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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread

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^you are aware that the one where "chased the magician as quickly as a bullet" part was a hyperbole right? like i repeated several times, kamachi tends to do that a lot in action-scenes...

i agree that gunhas case isnt the best since he himself has no idea what he can do, but that doesnt make literal statements vanish,

and: kamachi/text said (i think) in the acqua vs amakusa+kanzaki fight in Vol.16, the speed of sound (coming near mach 2) was the limit of saints, at least their bodys wont be able to withstand it therefore the zone in which they arent harmed is at around mach 1, acqua was so overpowered because he was able to ignore this "instability" via his secial spell... that means saints are limited to such speeds...
 
^

Yeah, could be an hyberbole for other characters, but is not close to the speed she has because of feats and powerscaling. However, your interpretation of a single statement from a random minor character in a side story apparently is fact, despite going againts feats and powerscaling.

Also, I've just searched through the entire OT16, and I can't find anything like what you are claiming searcing for "Mach" "sound" "speed" or "limit". The only time I found they talk about a Saint's limits is this in Chapter 4 Part 2, which doesn't mention Mach speeds or anything concrete, just that unlike Kanzaki; who uses her full power when she uses the Yuisen spell, which is not suited for long battles as it's supposed to be a one-hit kill iajutsu technique; Acqua has no limits as to the power he draws from his Saint body, thanks to Divine Mother's Mercy and can outlast a Saint when fighting at full power:

Having used all the power in this body of a Saint to use this spell called 'Yuisen', Kanzaki understood that a Saint's attributes far exceeded what a human could do. 'Yuisen' had originally been created as a one-strike sword technique. If she didn't do it like this, she may end up destroying her own body. But Acqua broke through this impossible possibility front up. Thus, he could pull the distance between himself and Kanzaki.


(—I don't have…enough power to exert magic…on 'Yuisen'.)


This spell wouldn't just increase movement, it also prevented the muscles from exceeding what humans could endure and get destroyed, making sure that while the speed drastically increased, the entire body balance wouldn't be lost. This was a 'crystallization' of all sorts of spells. If one wanted to go even further than that, or add in something else, the balance between all these spells would break down. Using the current pieces and piecing them together like a jigsaw puzzle, it was impossible to add a new piece in.

This was the limit of a Saint who mainly used close-ranged combat.

Maybe Acqua had some body defense spell that was even more refined than this.

Though Kanzaki thought of a few possibilities herself, no matter what, she failed.

As expected, there would be a problem if she powered up to his level. If she used a similar power to that of Acqua's. If anyone tried to use the power that Acqua used, at that moment, an ordinary person's body would have eroded, whether physically or magically.


(Acqua's…power is…)


Normally, the power given to a Saint couldn't be used entirely.

Since they were people who had similar body characteristics with the Son of God, Saints were those who were said to have inherited his power; even if it was just a part of it, in the end, it was not something that a human could grasp.

They had a part of that power, but trying to grasp a part of that part of power was already tough for a Saint.

This was the real identity of a Saint.

No matter how they built this up, there would be a divide that they couldn't surpass. If one had to describe it, it would be like finally getting hold of a power only for it to scatter like fog. Thus, there was a limit to using the power created through the Idol Theory with their own willpower. However, this wasn't completely bad. If Saints could use such power at 100%, the high pressure would cause the Saint's body to self-destruct. This was more of a self-defense instinct than magic, since when they were babies, they controlled that power without knowing anything about magic.

However,


(…Acqua, he doesn't have the limit of being...a Saint…?…That power…has it already overcome what…a human can already control…?)


Needless to say, besides being a Saint, Acqua had the power of God's Right Seat. The reason for him to be called Acqua of the Back was because he had the element of the Archangel Power of God. Normally, one would think that it was just a natural addition of power, but in reality, this increased power doubled the burden on him.

Yes.

What was amazing was that Acqua had already controlled 200% of that power and still hadn't gone amok, his facial expression not changing at all.

So please, if you are trying to use a statement from the novel try to quote it and state which novel and part it is from so that others can check. As of now, all I'm seeing is you not wanting to accept something very easy to understand and trying to use excuses like hyperbole to claim a single statement overrides feats. Since it seems I and the others can't conince you I'll give up on discussing this subject with you.
 
So did Greatest Sin only read one novel or something lol?

There was also another section in NT 10 where accelerator ascended 5000 m or something instantly and came crashing down on Touma. What I don't get is how he could suvive that much force from Touma who hit him with imagine breaker lol. I also don't understand how Touma's arm wouldn't break from something traveling that fast lol

Index is pretty full of inconsistencies, and Touma literally goes with Othinius smiling as they are chased by massive drones that shoot gattling railguns to kill them. His plan was literally to take Othinius and run lol, that's not even a real plan. He would have 100% been killed if Misaka didn't just show up convienient and hijacked all of them lol. That level of plot convienience is just never seen in any other story lol.
 
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Accelerator

BTW question is how far is accelerator's actual range then? If he doesn't need to touch vectors to control them in his awakened form. I took this off of the Wikia page for accelerator btw.


He gains the ability to understand laws that are hitherto unknown and unexplainable to him, and no longer needs contact with vectors to control them. When under tremendous emotional pressure such as rage, he manifests massive black wings, stated to be made of the same "Dark Matter" that Kakine Teitoku creates with his ability. These wings do all the vector-related calculations for him, implied to be much faster than his original capabilities, and as a result he does not need the Misaka Network to manipulate vectors in this state. In volume 22, due to his pillar of support being changed after his second defeat by Touma, he manifests white wings and a halo and is able to block a massive amount of Telesma that Fiamma of the Right launches from the Star of Bethlehem. The angelic nature of his ability is described as "The One Who Wields the Power of God" (ÒÇîþÑ×Òü½Òééþ¡ëÒüùÒüäÕèøÒü«þëçÚ▒ùÒéƵî»ÒéïÒüåÞÇàÒÇìKami nimo hitoshii chikara no henrin wo furuu mono?).
 
@lazy

"minor characer statement": it was a char supposedly being very close to kanzaki, o he knows at least more than average about her limits and capabilitys, he was even aware that kanzaki was able to reach the church in kanzaki SS chapter 1 faster than his car...

PS: compare accelerator's in OT15-scream with kanzakis movement which is "as fast as a bullet", i hope it now becomes clear that it was used in order to show "she moved very fast", it is essentially the same but it seems like i wont be able to change your mind so ignore it...

it doesnt explicity mention speed but power, which essentially includes (at least in this case) speed too:

Normally, the power given to a Saint couldn't be used entirely.

Since they were people who had similar body characteristics with the Son of God, Saints were those who were said to have inherited his power; even if it was just a part of it, in the end, it was not something that a human could grasp.

They had a part of that power, but trying to grasp a part of that part of power was already tough for a Saint.

This was the real identity of a Saint.

No matter how they built this up, there would be a divide that they couldn't surpass. If one had to describe it, it would be like finally getting hold of a power only for it to scatter like fog. Thus, there was a limit to using the power created through the Idol Theory with their own willpower. However, this wasn't completely bad. If Saints could use such power at 100%, the high pressure would cause the Saint's body to self-destruct. This was more of a self-defense instinct than magic, since when they were babies, they controlled that power without knowing anything about magic. However,

(…Acqua, he doesn't have the limit of being...a Saint…?…That power…has it already overcome what…a human can already control…?)

As you see, it mentions limits several times over and over, im not sure how someone can miss that :(

as for "how fast had they been", unfortunatly kanzaki SS seems to be taken out of BT so i cant quote, but there was a "fight" between kanzaki and some magician-woman who used norse-myth-magic in order to increase he bodys stats, it was with the chapter of the underwater-magic-prison being taken over...

@aurasuke

at least i think it was more than 30 or so :D

and toumas arm was about to break, if i remember right than he broke his fist and dislocated hsi shoulder or so...

and i agree with the plot-convenience-sentence :) but touma+othinus smiling isnt really inconsistent XD
 
^ No, Jean Shops Owner is a minor character and support magician usually contacted by Kanzaki to get info and buy her jeans, not a close companion that follows her into battle like Stiyl or the Amakusa. Just because he knows Saints can move faster than a car, which is likely something most magicians know, doesn't make your argument any more compelling.

You don't seem to have any proof and are basically just twisting stuff from the novels to fit your arguments. I didn't miss that part about limits, as you see it's part of what I quoted from the novels in my post. It simply doesn't support your argument at all. The limit about Saints discussed in that novel is power in general, not speed, and it doesn't mention anything about the limits of their speed, just that Saints can't draw 100% of the power they gain through Idol Theory because it's too much even for them; so it's irrelevant to a discussion about their speed. As I've said, we can't convince you, and you sure aren't convincing me with that kind of argument and trying to move the goalposts every time I prove you wrong. I'm dropping this subject entirely.
 
Kiyama Harumi is done. DontTalk, do you know when exactly does she stop bullets mid-air? I couldn't find it, so I left it as Normal Human speed. She does raise part of the bridge as a shield against Anti-Skill bullets in both anime and manga, but I can't find her using telekinesis to stop bullets.
 
LazyHunter said:
Kiyama Harumi is done. DontTalk, do you know when exactly does she stop bullets mid-air? I couldn't find it, so I left it as Normal Human speed. She does raise part of the bridge as a shield against Anti-Skill bullets in both anime and manga, but I can't find her using telekinesis to stop bullets.
Click to expand...
Hmm.. I am also not able to find it again. It was late when I skiped through the manga and I was tired, so I probably just misinterpreted something.
 
Found the bullet stopping feat. It seems like she's using a barrier though.

Look on this page on the left.

In the anime she just has them shoot each other.
 
^That's not it, that's what I've mentioned she does in both anime and manga, which is raise part of the ground as a physical shield. The part you mention in the anime when she makes them shoot each other is also in the manga at the start of the fight a few pages earlier. So it seems it'll stay as just Normal Human speed.
 
Oh, my bad. I thought her reactions would be faster though, considering the fact that she reacted to Misaka's lightning (could aimdodged though since those are pretty telegraphed).
 
As you say, she just likely activated her shield before Mikoto could throw her lightning at her by reacting to her movements. Or that unlike the mindless AIM Burst, who Mikoto did hurt with lightning a few times before it used the insulation shield, Harumi was smart enough to turn the shield on as soon as the battle started, since she knows who Mikoto is.
 
About Accelerator reflection speed, i was thinking about it, if his speed cap is light speed when he took the head shot and used misaka network it's stated that he has half of his calc speed and he is still able to reflect Uv rays, also, he is able to reflect teleportation(that should be instantaneous).
 
As of now the popular assumption is that his speed reflection limit is light speed in post-headshot base and two times lightspeed pred-headshot and with wings. Until we get more info it'll likely stay that way. Also, teleportation is not technically instantaneous, it's just that moving stuff through the 11th dimension makes it look like it is instantaneous relative to normal spatial movement. It still has movement vectors that Accel can reflect.
 
I've created Kihara Ransuu's page and made another section in the verse page under the Science Side for the Kihara Family, since we have like seven of them, eight if Yuiitsu does something cool in the future.
 
^nice work as always

EDIT: Any Ideas for Stats on Frenda? Would like to see her have a profile

Also for the AIM burst, what level of immortality would it have?
 
^

Frenda would probably be (Railgun manga chapters 26, 27 and 81):

Tier: 10-A, 9-B with rockets and tape-fuse

AP: Athlete level melee with Wall level hand rockets. I'm not sure how to rate her doll bombs, but the tape-fuse thing she uses is also wall level (she cuts a ceiling and a staircase to pieces).

Speed and Durability: Normal Human level. It's strange that Tier does scale Normal Human < Athlete < Peak Human, but these two stats jump from Normal to Peak Human. It just feels weird to have characters that can handle themselves in hand-to-hand like Frenda or Touma to have the same speed and/or durability that characters that do not like Misaki, Utgard-Loki or Girl in Dress.

Still, given that Frenda is now in the middle of fighting SCHOOL's original sniper in the Railgun manga, perhaps we should wait and see how that ends. Maybe Kamachi will finally come out and say her esper ability is some kind of skirt hammerspace.

As a side note, now that we're discussing Frenda I'm thinking that I may have rated Oumi Shuri too high. I put her as Street level mainly because she's a trained ninja, but also because of Bersi's comment that she was too strong to kill him. But she doesn't really do that much fighting in the novel proper, she's more of a support/team fighter than a frontline type and she's clearly inferior to Maria (who knocked her out in one hit) and Enshu (who almost killed her), who I think are solid street level characters. Plus, even if she's skilled she's stuck with a kid's body, which should be physically inferior. Does anyone else feel the same? Should we downgrade her to 10-A? At the very least I'm going to take out the "likely peak human" and since there's not athlete level speed and durability, leave her as Normal Human level for speed and durability.

AIM Burst would have type 3 Immortality, as there doesn't seem to be a type that fits the "will continue to exist as long as the Level Upper Network exists". Now that I think about it, there's also not one for characters whose immortality depends on object/s like Voldemort or liches.
 
^Yes I remember a bit of a debate/thread about immortality from Objects or from a different location occuring a while ago, but I don't remember if we got a Concluded answer for it. Honestly the Closest thing I've seen to the Immortality you're describing is On the Regenerationn page but it still doesn't quite feel accurate

Low - Godly: Able to regenerate as long as your disembodied consciousness exists/regenerate from other realms

What Exactly "other realms" means or include, I'm not sure..

I have no issue with the downgrade on Oumi Shuri based on your reasons so feel free

As for Frenda I don't think she will show off anything we haven't seen, but who knows maybe ill be pleasantly surprised

EDIT: (Minor Spoilers)

It seems Frenda may get a boost in reaction speed based on the raws of the latest railgun chapter..
 
Yeah, Frenda is doing well against Rakko. I've seen other profiles in the wiki with Athlete human level durability and speed, so I'm thinking of using it for Frenda, Shuri and others that are clearly above average humans but not to peak human levels.

Kumokawa Maria's profile has been created. Would this be a good feat for her? (NT4 Main.12)

"Like I said, you can't win. And if you can't handle something like this, you definitely shouldn't peer in any deeper. It won't just be your pride that gets hurt. Those with no experience with this kind of threat cannot react properly when faced with it. Or do you not even understand something of this lev—"

Kumokawa Maria's sentence was suddenly cut off.

The reason was simple.

Without warning, a bazooka had been fired into the room.

Kumokawa Maria immediately placed only her left foot on the ground and bent her body like a giant bridge. The bazooka shell pierced through the area her upper body had just been in, but when it struck the wall beyond and exploded, the shockwave it sent out was unavoidable.

"Geh…!?"

Kumokawa Maria lost her balance, was knocked over, and her balled up form rolled smoothly across the ground. By not fighting that flow, she had avoided any direct hits from the shell's shrapnel or the pieces of the wall. As she rolled, she immediately tried to recover.

Also, about the HsPS-15's profile I was preparing, reading some other scenes with powered suits make it clear that the "10 times a normal vehicle" thing is an exaggeration, as the ones who attacked Accel in the 500 km/h train in OT20 are identified as being specialized in speed, and the Highway Cheetah and Dragon Rider (800 and 1050 km/h, respectively) are also special powered suits. So the HsPS-15 stats are left as

AP: Wall level melee + anti-barrier revolver shotgun

Speed: at least Superhuman, likely Subsonic (Hard Taping)

Durability: likely Building level (should be able to take an anti-tank missile head on)

The anti-barrier revolver shotgun is Building level AP normal shells (can shoot straight through a tank) and Street level blanks.

Does anyone have an issue with these stats?

Addionally, this makes me wonder where the Hypersonic speed of the Railgun Five Over comes from, shouldn't it be "at least subsonic", considering it's faster than the average powered suit? (it moves fast enough to leave afterimages, but those don't seem like a good way to determine speed, only that its faster than normal powered suits)
 
About Maria: Dodging a bazooka shell is subsonic. So better than Human level.


About HsPs-15: Shouldn't it be at least subsonic? Else they wolud be slower than your average car...


About the Five_over: I don't remember (once again damn you me of the past for not noting the reasoning). Feel free to change it.


Btw. have any of you guys played Toaru Majutsu to Kagaku no Ensemble? Because I don't have read it, but some characters seem interesting. Ureapaddy Exica is, by what I read of her, small City level level with normal output and Small Country level by the 509000 times output she can reach.

Pantagruels ability and showings also sound interesting.
 
@DontTalk I hadn't read it, but I also wanted to make a profile for her. also shes likely far higher than country level, IIRC the game also had a novel release prior to the events of endymion? there were afew quotes that nowhere in the world (planet)would be safe from her or something.I will have a look for it and the quotes that I think are relevant

From To Aru Road to Endymion:

"She uttered a concrete numerical value without showing any real sign of making any calculations. "I

can probably draw out an output 509,000 times that of the attack you were desperate to

accomplish back then."

Kipsila's breathing completely stopped for a moment.

In all seriousness, he underwent such a great shock that he seemed to lack even the level

of thought required to continue breathing.

"You will destroy us all."

"Perhaps."

"If that value is accurate, there will be no safe area left on this planet! Whether one flees

to highest heights of the atmosphere or the deepest depths of the ocean, that will

evaporate it all!! Who knows if the planet itself would be able to continue properly in its

orbit!!"

"But isn't that just the kind of Astra I have? After all…"
 
Okay, I'll give Maria Subsonic reactions and put HsPS-15 and Five Over Railgun at subsonic, with Five Over being "likely higher" because of its afterimage thing indicating it should be faster than a standar powered suit.

The Toaru Kagaku no Ensemble has four routes that are all stories happening more or less at the same time. Parts of it are related to the Endymion movie, since it shows how Mikoto and Alisa meet and the Endymion is part of it.

Surface Magic, with Touma and Index as protagonists

Surface Science, Mikoto as protagonist

Hidden Science, Saten and Uiharu as protagonists, the shortest route

Hidden Magic, Tsuchimikado and Kanzaki as protagonists that acts as the epilogue of the story

Since it isn't translated you can read a summary of the routes by Js06 here

Fortunately, the Surface Magic route, the one with the Exica sisters, was also released as a LN like LordAizensama said called Road to Endymio, so Ureapaddy's magic and feats are all already translated. Her most powerful spell is really highly situational, to the level she can't really use its normal level of power on her own, though. But in a verse vs verse fight like the earlier One Piece vs Toaru, Ureapaddy supported by Academy City's Debris Storm would be a really good asset to the Toaru side.
 
Maybe the Five-Over Suits previous Hypersonic speed came from the attack speed of the Railguns?

on a slightly related note, is there a calc or anything on Misaka's railgun speed? I believe in the anime or manga it was stated to be 1030Metres per second.
 
It could be. Checking through NT1, NT4 and NT10 I can't find any actual mention of the railgun's speed except the usual "supersonic" being mentioned once in NT1 Chapter 5. Maybe it was assumed that since its railgun is more powerul than Mikoto's, which is Mach 3, it reached Hypersonic speeds.

I did manage to find something to improve its range in NT10, Chapter 15, though, so I'll upgrade that.
 
LazyHunter said:
It could be. Checking through NT1, NT4 and NT10 I can't find any actual mention of the railgun's speed except the usual "supersonic" being mentioned once in NT1 Chapter 5. Maybe it was assumed that since its railgun is more powerul than Mikoto's, which is Mach 3, it reached Hypersonic speeds.I did manage to find something to improve its range in NT10, Chapter 15, though, so I'll upgrade that.
Click to expand...
that is what I think also
 
Yeah, you're right. Mikoto's usual coin Railgun is three times the speed of sound, 1030 m/s, since shooting it any faster would reduce her already short range of 50 meters.
 
Five_Over should probably have Transonic reaction speed though. It was mentioned in NT 4 that it can shoot down air-to-surface missles.
 
It does say that (NT4 Sub.08):

This monster seemed likely to be linked with a mobile radar as it could even shoot down fighter planes and the air-to-surface missiles. Thus, even if he continued to roll a few times like those action movies, there wouldn't be any change to the outcome.

So Transonic reactions?
 
Yes, at the very least. Technically Air-to-surface missles can also be Mach 2 or stuff, but since we don't know which kind this is transsonic is probably a good bet.
 
theres a quote in NT10 describing them as Mach 4 surface to air missiles

Some came from the white sky and others tore into the group behind them. Anything

within range, from a human to an air-to-surface missile travelling at Mach 4, could be

shot down with a high level of accuracy. The two of them were targeted with the great

"arms" that were the Gatling railgun barrels used to tear their prey to pieces.
 
Supersonic+ reactions? It does bother me that it clashes with the accuracy problems mentioned about Silver Cross's Railgun Five Over. Then again that wasn't piloted by a human or a pilot AI, it was piloted by Silver Cross remains. Kind of seeing how that would lead to worse performance. And the Baggage City and Denmark chase's Five Overs are the upgraded version that can be unmanned, with the text once again mentioning how Academy City can make advances in less than a month that would normally take years.

Maybe we should treat it as Stiyl's OT1 rune weakness and leave only the "accuracy problems when shooting at more than 1000 meters" from NT10.
 
well, it does say anything within range. wasn't the misaccuracy attributed to the range aswell? and that there were different modes of firing for accuracy?

but i guess the supersonic+ reactions is ok then
 
Off topic, but if we are already talking about fast technology developement:

Does it bother anyone else that Kamachi missed the chance to showcase fast technology developement in Academy City, by using phones as examples?

Remember how in the beginning of Index people had flip phones and now 6 (in universe) month later people have smart watches? If he would have made that developement unique to Academy city, while the rest of the world still uses flip phones, that would have been kinda cool in my opinion.
 
^ The real reason is probably because index is 10 years old and back then flip phones were kind of the thing lol.

But then time went on and suddenly they started having holographic display screen phones like the one that Kuroko uses for judgement work.
 
It would have been cool to see everyone in Academy City use phones like Kuroko's instead of flip phones, but I've heard those are still very popular in Japan, so it might be just a cultural thing. Academy City could definitely use better tech in daily live appliances instead of wasting it all in robots, powered suits and WMDs.

A bit unrelated, but I came across a Fiamma illustratio that we can use if we ever decide to change the one we have now. This one even includes Index's controller.
 
^^well you could also argue that Academy city was supposed to be what, 30 yrs technologically ahead of everyone else at the time? so more creativity could of been used there I guess

@lazy I do like that picture though it can't really be rendered well without it looking awkward via the brightness
 
I've been updating the old profiles, and the next ones I plan to do are Knight Leader and Acqua. For their stats after their nerfs (Knight Leader without Curtana Original's blessing and post WWIII Acqua after losing his Saint + God's Right Seat powers), would it be okay to put them at 7-A Mountain level or do I put them at 7-B City level?

Both are still described in the novels as having Saint-levels of power, so if Hel can pull of a 7-A feat it doesn't seem that strange for them to still be able to use that level of power, but I wanted to get your opinion's first. Acqua should probably be even with the Knight Leader (old rivals and all that), who can still fight Carissa without the Curtana Original's blessing, so he should probably be around Kanzaki's level.

OT18 (Carissa fighting Kanzaki, Acqua and Knight Leader at the same time):

"It looks like I've exceeded my limit for this game of otedama. Even with this special power, taking on 3 Saint level monsters is rather troublesome."

NT8 (Acqua to Carissa questioning if he's going to be of any help):

"I have of course lost my powers as a member of God's Right Seat and as a Saint. However, the methodology for freely manipulating great power still remains within me. I can parry, deflect, and otherwise handle whatever your average magician can throw at me."

NT10 (Narration talking about Kanzaki, Carissa, Acqua and Knight Leader):

However, the four monsters remained unfazed.

Carissa.

Acqua.

Knight Leader.

Kanzaki Kaori.

All of them were a great force that represented Britain and they were all either a Saint or the possessor of an equivalent level of power. They would occasionally move at greater than the speed of sound, they would occasionally singlehandedly wipe out an army, and their power was said to be proportional to a nuclear weapon.
 
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