[Toaru] Downgrading Magic Gods' High 1-C Tiering

[Churronzon]

Preface:

I have very little knowledge of how the tiering system works so I'll just cut to the chase.
Yes, Toaru has 11 dimensions, but there's no statements regarding Toaru's cosmology that supports the higher 11 dimensions as being infinite in size or having a brane topology.

---

Supplemental argument:

If it matters, the visible third dimension is finite as Coronzon's incomplete ceremony would destroy half the universe. Half of infinity would still be infinity.

(But even in this incomplete state, I can blow away about half the universe. It all works
out in the end as long as that half includes this planet!! For now, I eliminate the obvious
enemy. I just have to think of another way to individually destroy the Sephirah that
survive this!!)

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 17

Othinus's arrows are also capable of reaching the farthest reaches of the universe.

---

Major changes:

I propose for True Magic Gods to be downgraded to either High 3-A or Low 2-C and Othinus to 3-A, as the latter doesn't have statements for possessing infinite power like the True Magic Gods do.

List of Magic Gods to be downgraded:

• Othinus,High Priest, Niang-Niang, Nephthys,Proserpina, Nuada, Tezcatlipoca, Chimera, Zombie, and The Forgotten God.

List of characters that scale from High 1-C Magic God tiering and would thus also get downgraded:

• Touma, St. Germain, Kamisato, Kihara Yuiitsu, Accelerator, Rensa, Coronzon, Aleister, and Aiwass.

Side change:
While Accelerator wouldn't be listed as High 1-C in durability, he still has a WoG statement that his vector field has an infinite ceiling and some supporters(myself included) argue that it shouldn't even have a tier since his ability is hax-based and a subtype of mathematics manipulation. Giving Accelerator's mathematics manipulation a tier is like giving Gojo's Infinity a tier when it's manipulating space.

He could nullify all fatal attacks, but he also had a sword spell that increases its destructive
power every time he was attacked. Thus, when facing a fierce attack by the enemy, he
could use a spell that has an infinite ceiling. This is different from Accelerator in that it’s
not the control of just one attack, but that the thing that’s worth noting is that once the
power increases, he could maintain such destructive power when fighting the enemy in
the future. As his name suggested, he really was an inflating bastard.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 04 Afterword

I feel it's a lot easier to just not give his shield a tier rather than trying to figure out if he is High 3-A or anything higher. Of course, the same would apply to Rensa who has Accelerator's ability.

---

If this CRT is accepted, the only things that could bump them up is either more info on Toaru's cosmology or Tangram being accepted as a canon crossover, but those are topics for future CRTs.

---

Votes regarding downgrading Magic Gods:

Agree: Paul_Frank, ShivaShakti
Disagree: Qawsedf234[Admin], Problemexe, Excel616, ÆONS, XDragnoir, FantaRin_The_First, Aseka, Enter_Bluey, Pain_to12, Dread, Doggo, Overlord_THE_END
Neutral:


Votes regarding removing the tiering from Accelerator's vector manipulation:

Agree: XDragnoir, FantaRin_The_First, Aseka, Qawsedf234
Disagree: Enter_Bluey
Neutral: ÆONS

 

[RitsuØ1]

How about no?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Said this literally since the tiering revisions happened, based and true thread, agree with getting rid of the high 1-C

 

[ImmortalDread]

Following

 

[Excellence616]

Disagree

 

[RitsuØ1]

Said this literally since the tiering revisions happened, based and true thread, agree with getting rid of the high 1-C

What Tiering System revisions?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I have very little knowledge of how the tiering system works so I'll just cut to the chase.
Yes, Toaru has 11 dimensions, but there's no statements regarding Toaru's cosmology that supports the higher 11 dimensions as being infinite in size or having a brane topology.

---

Supplemental argument:

Is there a section missing here or is the claim just that the current tier is based on an incorrect assumption?

Because in order for this downgrade to go through, you can't just say "They're not higher dimensional in the sense of being superior to a lower dimension" without explaining away this specific statement:

I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked.

Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

“Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

Because the above is talking about higher and lower dimensional cross-sections, which is a pretty straight forward example of a geometric dimension which is what the tiering system is based off of.

 

[Iiliminal]

ah sht here we go again

 

[ÆONS]

Disagree with the OP. I see nothing here which disproves the fact that the entire universe of Toaru is 11 dimensional and that all of them are indeed higher-dimensional AND are ontologically superior mainly based on the response provided by Qawsedf.

I am neutral on the matter of Accelerator's vector shield.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Is there a section missing here or is the claim just that the current tier is based on an incorrect assumption?

The latter.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The latter.

Well, as I said in order for any downgrade to go through you would need to explain why the cross-section statement doesn't apply to coordinate dimensions. Because as of now that is one of the most straightforward examples of superior higher dimensions we have on the site.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree with the downgrade

 

[Qawsedf234]

Said this literally since the tiering revisions happened, based and true thread, agree with getting rid of the high 1-C

I'm confused here. The Tiering Revision way back when wouldn't have effected this. In fact from what is see its almost the textbook definition of our High 1-C rating

High 1-C: High Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to six to seven higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 10 and 11-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 10 to R ^ 11)

Cross sections directly relate to coordinate space and there's 11 Dimensions.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I'm confused here. The Tiering Revision way back when wouldn't have effected this. In fact from what is see its almost the textbook definition of our High 1-C rating

So, can this thread be closed? Or do we have to wait for OP to respond?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Or do we have to wait for OP to respond?

OP gets to respond since it wouldn't be fair otherwise.

I'm not saying the current ratings are set in stone or anything as a note. Just that in order for them to be downgraded either the blog statement needs to be disproven or evidence needs to be given that suggests higher dimensional spaces are not consistently portrayed as being larger than lower dimensional ones in a coordinate or geometric sense.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm confused here. The Tiering Revision way back when wouldn't have effected this. In fact from what is see its almost the textbook definition of our High 1-C rating

Cross sections directly relate to coordinate space and there's 11 Dimensions.

That and there are higher dimensional vectors (proven by Accel being able to reflect things with his vectors powers in the 11th dimension and i think it was also stated when explaining what teleporters, who move in the 11th dimension, can do) and i asked Ultima about vectors and he said they're valid for the dimensional tiering, but i didn't know cross sections were also a valid thing, that's good to know.

Edit: Tho, i agree with removing H1C from the smurf characters such as Touma, Accel and others (minus Aleister) as they scale to it with hax and not with AP or Dura.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, could you please tag Everything 12? Thanks

 

[Churronzon]

I just want to say that I don't mind either way whether my CRT is approved or rejected. If being able to manipulate an 11-dimensional structure that is proven to not be microscopic or compactified is equivalent/superior to "destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space", then I'll rescind my changes. I would however, like to see if there's opposing arguments.

If these changes end up being rejected, then this thread serves the purpose of reinforcing the justification for their current placement. It also means I don't have to think about whether Coronzon's goal or any of my future additions would refute the current tiering, if it doesn't matter whether the 3rd dimension is finite.

Like I said, I'm still learning the tiering system.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yo. I can't contribute much here but everything Problemexe, Qawedf234, and Drag said makes their disagreements sound reasonable - so count me on the disagree FRA side... agree on removing the High 1-C stuff from Accelerator profile, tho.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If being able to manipulate an 11-dimensional structure that is proven to not be microscopic or compactified is equivalent/superior to "destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space"

If 3rd dimension and lower are universal in size/infinite, then by the nature of higher spaces the 4th through 11th dimensions would also need to be universal or infinite in scope.

like to see if there's opposing arguments.

Well, the thing here is that you would be required to give an opposing argument since you're debating against the accepted version. You're saying the current system is wrong and it should be changed. But you never went into any detail on why it's wrong.

 

[Churronzon]

If 3rd dimension and lower are universal in size/infinite, then by the nature of higher spaces the 4th through 11th dimensions would also need to be universal or infinite in scope.

I agree that the 4th-11th dimensions are at least universal, but my logic is that since the 3rd dimension is proven to be finite, infinite size cannot be upscaled to higher dimensions.

Well, the thing here is that you would be required to give an opposing argument since you're debating against the accepted version. You're saying the current system is wrong and it should be changed. But you never went into any detail on why it's wrong.

Why do higher dimensions of universal size(while being unknown whether infinite) equalize to being superior to an infinite-sized third dimension?

 

[Aseka]

Disagree FRA

And I agree for removing H1-C characters which based on their hax.

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree that the 4th-11th dimensions are at least universal, but my logic is that since the 3rd dimension is proven to be finite, infinite size cannot be upscaled to higher dimensions.

Infinite size isn't needed to begin with tho, that's the problem.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Disagree with the OP for reasoning explained already. Was going to get statements about cross sections and slicing 3rd/2nd/1st dimension, but it was already said so.

As for removing the high 1-C from their respective profile of touma and Accelerator, I don't really see the point. It allows for a better understanding on their abilities and how they function, so disagree with this too

 

[Churronzon]

As for removing the high 1-C from their respective profile of touma and Accelerator, I don't really see the point. It allows for a better understanding on their abilities and how they function, so disagree with this too

The point is that Accelerator would reflect a higher tier attack than his rating states. If his vector field was listed High 3-A, people would assume it couldn't block low 2-C attacks, when that's not how the hax works.

His ability is not a forcefield, it's the manipulation of a mathematical component.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Hmm but wouldn't that just help the reasoning for keeping it there though? To let people know it work on a high 1-C attack, and high 1-C components

 

[XDragnoir]

As for removing the high 1-C from their respective profile of touma and Accelerator, I don't really see the point. It allows for a better understanding on their abilities and how they function, so disagree with this too

It doesn't, with Accel maybe, with Touma and others it really doesn't.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Why did Touma, Kakeru, and Yuiitsu even get High 1-C ratings for their right hands in the first place? Like... It is noteworthy, tho. Hm, maybe like Giorno's profile which has notes regarding Gold Experience Requiem, we could take away the entire High 1-C rating altogether but leave a note that states Imagine Breaker and World Rejector can affect High 1-C/11-D things?

 

[Enter_Bluey]

It doesn't, with Accel maybe, with Touma and others it really doesn't.

How come?

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Why did Touma, Kakeru, and Yuiitsu even get High 1-C ratings for their right hands in the first place? Like... It is noteworthy, tho. Hm, maybe like Giorno's profile which has notes regarding Gold Experience Requiem, we could take away the entire High 1-C rating altogether but leave a note that states Imagine Breaker and World Rejector can affect High 1-C/11-D things?

I mean this could also work. In that regard I'd be fine with removing it ig. To me their 11D aspects seem noteworthy to mention in some way

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This could also work for Accelerator if his High 1-C durability ratings gets axed.

 

[XDragnoir]

How come?

First because IB isn't AP, so it shouldn't be in the damn AP section, even against a ghost it wouldn't be H1C AP it would still be power null.

Second, people have put Touma against H1C characters because of that, or thought his AP was like that against supernatural attacks.

I don't have a problem keeping IB in the dura section, but AP is a no.

 

[Shiraito983]

following

 

[Enter_Bluey]

First because IB isn't AP, so it shouldn't be in the damn AP section, even against a ghost it wouldn't be H1C AP it would still be power null.

Second, people have put Touma against H1C characters because of that, or thought his AP was like that against supernatural attacks.

I don't have a problem keeping IB in the dura section, but AP is a no.

I can see what you mean, with people wanting to put touma against high 1-C characters lmao. Some matches are valid but a lot are not.

I can also see the durability staying, like with the phase shift reasoning and such. I can also see the durability staying for Accelerator too though, since it's not even in his tier just durability based on vector field. Which honestly, is pretty fair to me since it's a large part of his kit that will keep him from getting harmed.

So for me I'd keep the durability for IB, and vector shield. Or make notes on them somewhere explaining. Or both

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree with this, saying the higher dimensions are not Higher Dimensions cause the universe is finite, is just wrong argument

 

[Qawsedf234]

agree that the 4th-11th dimensions are at least universal, but my logic is that since the 3rd dimension is proven to be finite, infinite size cannot be upscaled to higher dimensions.

A dimension does not need to be infinite to get a raring. Since we're going off of volumes for those tiers and having more axis will get you larger volumes.

Infinite size would just make them infinitely beyond baseline, but isn't a requirement for baseline.

Why do higher dimensions of universal size

For a coordinate space to work properly in mathematics, they have to be perpendicular to each other and every additional direction added will contain all previous directions under it due to the increased volume.

 

[AKUTO123]

Dont agree with op

 

[ImmortalDread]

After I read the blog and presented arguments from @Qawsedf234, I disagree with the OP's thread.

 

[Doggo]

Disagree fra

 

[wozirut]

Because of the evidence that Qawsedf234 presented I disagree with this CRT.