Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

He used a non-existent poison that forced CRC to return to its natural existence

And just like Kakine, all that nonexistent means here is that it isn't found in nature, unless you're claiming it is some kind of NEP to which you'd require a lot more of evidence.

And no, that's not even close to what the novel says he did:

Kamijou swept the dragon horizontally to tear the thick cloud apart in an instant and then the color red sprayed out.

The cloud didn’t matter at all.

The dragon released its breath.

It looked like a sharp purple-shining blade, but was that actually the poison stored in an evil dragon’s body being released at extreme pressure?

The box was shredded, the cat was forced out to establish its existence, and then it was killed.
___
His main goal and target from the start was the destruction of the box/cloud and its destruction removes the non-observation state he had to begin with, Touma didn't use any kind of "I force things to exist" hax or whatever you're thinking, the novel makes it clear that he just destroyed the box.

this is an appeal to existence

An appeal to what?

Edit:

Can anyone explain to me why is everyone nowadays reading every single word in Toaru as if it was some kind of hyper reality manipulation hax of some kind or any random kabbalah mention as a beyond conceptual whatever 1A mumbo jumbo? This shit is getting really tiresome to deal with.

 

[ShadeyD]

Why wouldn't the Cloud be afflicted with the non-existence inducement as well?

 

[ShadeyD]

Here's a sandbox I got for Touma and Aleister. Give me your thoughts. Still thinking about AP and speed justifications.

I think Magic Mimicry should be changed to Power Mimicry in general.

 

[XDragnoir]

Why wouldn't the Cloud be afflicted with the non-existence inducement as well?

What?

 

[ShadeyD]

You imply that the Cloud spell is just as easy to get rid of as you blowing wind hard enough to dispell it.

 

[XDragnoir]

You imply that the Cloud spell is just as easy to get rid of as you blowing wind hard enough to dispell it.

Probably not that easy, but there was no such thing as "non-existence inducement" in the entire volume at all, that's complete headcanon.

All we know about the cloud spell is that hitting CRC while he is covered by it is pretty much impossible, absolutely nothing even implied you needed some kind of nonexistent mumbo jumbo to deal with the cloud.

 

[ShadeyD]

All we know about the cloud spell is that hitting CRC while he is covered by it is pretty much impossible, absolutely nothing even implied you needed some kind of nonexistent mumbo jumbo to deal with the cloud.

If you don't agree with that, would normal power null still be applicable for it?
As you pointed at out, The Dragon King physically swept through it.
Which shouldn't be possible for normal physical attacks

 

[Churronzon]

And just like Kakine, all that nonexistent means here is that it isn't found in nature, unless you're claiming it is some kind of NEP to which you'd require a lot more of evidence.

I was only going to list it as intang btw

 

[ShadeyD]

Spatial: The ability to shift into other dimensions so as to avoid and phase through attacks. While this allows them to avoid most forms of attack, they can still be affected by attacks that operate on similar principles and by those with sufficient range to target them in the other dimension

It seems to be the closest to the spatial type of intangibility

 

[Churronzon]

The ones listed on the intangibility page are just examples. We don't need to use any of the categories and can instead just let people think for themselves via reading the justification/scan.

 

[XDragnoir]

If you don't agree with that, would normal power null still be applicable for it?

There's no such a thing as "normal power null", as long as a power null has dealt with similar abilities it will be able to deal with the Cloud spell, if it never dealt with anything akin to it then it won't.

Idk why you're bringing this up tho, like, what's the point?

As you pointed at out, The Dragon King physically swept through it.
Which shouldn't be possible for normal physical attacks

Again, how do you know normal attacks can't do it? Or simply using AoE to fully cover the cloud? Even if CRC himself isn't damaged by the attack before it fully disperses the cloud, NOTHING said the cloud can't be dispersed.

I was only going to list it as intang btw

It should be some kind of Quantum manipulation or high tier matter manipulation as it's clearly using superposition as its basis to avoid the attacks, rather than intangibility.

 

[Aseka]

It should be some kind of Quantum manipulation or high tier matter manipulation as it's clearly using superposition as its basis to avoid the attacks, rather than intangibility.

Should we count it as Probability Manipulation as well?

 

[XDragnoir]

Should we count it as Probability Manipulation as well?

Ehhhhh

I think it should be quantum manipulation, but given our quantum manipulation page is barely existent we may need to add other things to make it more clear.

Or in short, that's a possibility, we should probably discuss that in the thread alongside staff (given it's more of a indexing problem than a exclusively Toaru problem).

 

[Churronzon]

Is Yggdrasil a phase? Why did Othinus specifically call just Asgard as one?
When Othinus was observing the lower world, was she peering from one phase to another (Asgard to Midgard)?

“The head Norse god has an affinity for birds. I would use two raven familiars to gather
information around the world and I would transform myself into a hawk to inspect the
lower world.”

-Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 20 Chapter 2 Part 6

 

[Churronzon]

[Toaru] On Alice surviving Gungnir's destruction

Proposal: I'm looking to give Alice a possible resistance to reality warping. To start off with we have the following WoG in the Afterword of one of the volumes stating that the Transcendents were capable of surviving and killing Othinus in the Black World (which was the aftermath of Othinus...

vsbattles.com

Throw peanuts at me

 

[ShadeyD]

Again, how do you know normal attacks can't do it? Or simply using AoE to fully cover the cloud? Even if CRC himself isn't damaged by the attack before it fully disperses the cloud, NOTHING said the cloud can't be dispersed.

In the Rosicrucian cabal, clouds were an important symbol of covering up wisdom and truth to prevent the unworthy from viewing it. Inside that cloud, no attack could hit him even if made from 0cm away. The entire space could be filled with a dense scattershot, but it would be as useless as trying to attack a cat that may or may not be there because no one could observe it.
-GT9

Doesn't this blatantly debunk the idea that the cloud could be countered using a mundane physical attack?
If the entire space was filled with a dense scattershot, that would make a normal cloud of steam disappear

 

[XDragnoir]

Doesn't this blatantly debunk the idea that the cloud could be countered using a mundane physical attack?

That's talking about CRC while inside it, it doesn't even imply the cloud is impossible to interact with or anything like that, it only says attacks wouldn't hit CRC as long as he is inside of it.

And again, what do you even mean by "mundane physical attacks"? Touma destroyed it with a pressurized poison attack of all things.

If the entire space was filled with a dense scattershot, that would make a normal cloud of steam disappear

Isn't it a normal cloud rather than a cloud of steam?

Anyway, it's still a magical spell, there's no reason it has to be as easily destroyed as that, the point is that it at no moment it was stated to have beeb inflicted with nonexistence or whatever y'all were claiming Touma did.

 

[Churronzon]

"I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. If I lift up my head, I and my Nuit are one. If I droop down mine head, and shoot forth venom, then is rapture of the earth, and I and the earth are one. There is great danger in me..."

What ability is this

 

[Churronzon]

Both SoG and Blood Sacrifice shouldn't be their own keys actually, as both come from amps that his "base form" can use, same reason Accel's Wings aren't keys.

Agreed. So what AP/speed stats would his base key receive? I wouldn't mind him staying at peak human speed but I want to see what people think we should do with his feats of fighting Coronzon/Niang-Niang as SoG wasn't active during NT22.

Should we assume they scaled down their strength to match him?

 

[XDragnoir]

Agreed. So what AP/speed stats would his base key receive? I wouldn't mind him staying at peak human speed but I want to see what people think we should do with his feats of fighting Coronzon/Niang-Niang as SoG wasn't active during NT22.

Ehhh, I think Kamachi just didn't put much thought into that, should just be outliers.

Should we assume they scaled down their strength to match him?

They who exactly? Coronzon? Why would she scale down her strength?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ehhh, I think Kamachi just didn't put much thought into that, should just be outliers.


They who exactly? Coronzon? Why would she scale down her strength?

I assume by "they", Zon meant Coronzon and Niang-Niang, Noir.

Tbh, I do see some merit in this argument. We explicitly know Niang-Niang wholly threw her fight against Aleister for the lols since the latter flat-out said it and he/she is likely one of the few "human" characters in ToAru that can be reasonably trusted to know a MG's capabilities.

AS for Coronzon, eh. 50-50 for me. Wasn't the whole series of event in that "fight" was Mina blocking an attack, them talking, Aleister then attempting to seal Coronzon only for that attempt to end in failure and for him/her to get fatally stabbed and unable to do anything afterwards?

 

[Churronzon]

Agree with the Fanta. We could just say Aleister doesn't scale to someone who intentionally lost.

AS for Coronzon, eh. 50-50 for me. Wasn't the whole series of event in that "fight" was Mina blocking an attack, them talking, Aleister then attempting to seal Coronzon only for that attempt to end in failure and for him/her to get fatally stabbed and unable to do anything afterwards?

Yeah I don't even recall a clash Aleister and Coronzon had without A.A.A.'s.

 

[ShadeyD]

On the topic of Coronzon, should she receive the abilities Aleister displayed in the battle with CRC when he called out her name?

 

[Alsotime]

So is Kakine going to scale to Misaka’s Railgun durability wise? Or are we going to ignore his statement in the dark matter manga due to his dark matter creations being destroyed via Meltdowner which scales below it?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So is Kakine going to scale to Misaka’s Railgun durability wise? Or are we going to ignore his statement in the dark matter manga due to his dark matter creations being destroyed via Meltdowner which scales below it?

Adding onto this, the only results that Kakine could get about Misaka's Railgun is from whatever test that Tokiwadai does regarding it-however in OT7, Misaka directly states that she lowers the output of her Railgun whenever she does the tests for her Esper powers. So Kakaine would only have faulty data to begin with.

 

[Alsotime]

That’s under the assumption of that being why he believes he can tank it. We don’t know anything beyond him saying he can tank a Railgun blast

 

[Churronzon]

Why does Gabriel still have keys.
Why is anyone even country level

 

[XDragnoir]

So is Kakine going to scale to Misaka’s Railgun durability wise? Or are we going to ignore his statement in the dark matter manga due to his dark matter creations being destroyed via Meltdowner which scales below it?

Mugino has been stated to have higher output than Mikoto, no? Not sure why Meltdowner scales below a railgun (if that's what you meant).

Anyway, I am sure the deal with Post Revival being destroyed by meltdowner is that Kakine doesn't care about the durability of his fake bodies most of the time, there's no reason to waste time giving them high dura when it's easier to simply recreate lost parts.

Why does Gabriel still have keys.

Outdated profile, he shouldn't have them (at least not the way they are currently).

Why is anyone even country level

Because they scale to the 6B feat? I am not sure what you mean in this part.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Mugino has been stated to have higher output than Mikoto, no? Not sure why Meltdowner scales below a railgun (if that's what you meant).

Ye, but that only applies when Mugino is using her "full power", the same "full power" that will immediately tear her body if tries using it... Kinda like how Mugino lost her arm in the first place when she first fought Hamazura.

Plus, there is the plenty mentions of Misaka being the strongest electromaster in GT and how the ITEM LNs constantly say Meltdowner is a electromaster power, so there is that. plus, plus, a severely weakened Misaka, physically and Esper power-wise, could deflect and counter a 100% Mugino's meltdowner beams in the Railgun manga.

So the way I see it... Misaka is > Mugino in most cases; the only exception is when Mugino uses her full power... in which case, she immediately dies soon after.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

By the way... Has anybody been keeping up with the Mental Out manga? Recent chapter showcased more of the clocktower explosion feat in C24.2 and showed that the Dorm Manager and Yuiitsu were both in the epicenter of it. No way for either of 'em to escape the explosion, so they could only tank/endure it, thus, it should scale to their durability-which then translates to their striking strength and attack potency since both of 'em could hurt each other.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ye, but that only applies when Mugino is using her "full power", the same "full power" that will immediately tear her body if tries using it... Kinda like how Mugino lost her arm in the first place when she first fought Hamazura.

Was that stated in the Item LN? I don't remember other quotes saying "Mugino is stronger when at full power" or anything like that (I didn't read Item 2 and 3, so I am kinda behind when it comes to Mugino).

Plus, there is the plenty mentions of Misaka being the strongest electromaster in GT and how the ITEM LNs constantly say Meltdowner is a electromaster power, so there is that. plus, plus, a severely weakened Misaka, physically and Esper power-wise, could deflect and counter a 100% Mugino's meltdowner beams in the Railgun manga.

All that isn't offensive output, which is the area Mugino is stated to surpass Mikoto, so I really think you're trying to compare apples and oranges here.

So the way I see it... Misaka is > Mugino in most cases; the only exception is when Mugino uses her full power... in which case, she immediately dies soon after.

Is that also from Item? Because iirc her problem is more so about aiming her power perfectly than some kind of overload like you seem to be talking about, iirc Mugino when she used Body Crystal even went beyond her full power and it didn't insta kill her.

 

[Churronzon]

Because they scale to the 6B feat? I am not sure what you mean in this part.

I'm just yapping

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Was that stated in the Item LN? I don't remember other quotes saying "Mugino is stronger when at full power" or anything like that (I didn't read Item 2 and 3, so I am kinda behind when it comes to Mugino).


All that isn't offensive output, which is the area Mugino is stated to surpass Mikoto, so I really think you're trying to compare apples and oranges here.


Is that also from Item? Because iirc her problem is more so about aiming her power perfectly than some kind of overload like you seem to be talking about, iirc Mugino when she used Body Crystal even went beyond her full power and it didn't insta kill her.

Ye, ye.

There is just a bit of context between 'em that makes it notably hard to determine on which one is stronger. Mugino has the stronger output and likely the stronger of the two in terms of offensive power overall but Misaka has better control over her powers overall + she can counter the Meltdowner beams by virtue of them falling into her category of manipulation.

So I guess they are about even.

 

[Alsotime]

No. the novels are pretty explicit about the Railgun being a stronger electric attack power wise than any other electric ability in the setting.

"Oh, and let's not forget that all Level 5 research is somewhat connected. And I'm not just talking about the obvious example of Railgun and Meltdowner both being electric powers." ITEM 2

Academy City's #3 Level 5, the 2nd year middle schooler with the strongest electric power - GT 7

She had talent only seen in 7 people within Academy City.

Of those 7, she was #3, the Railgun.

She was said to be the strongest when it came to purely electric powers. GT 1

Academy City’s #3 was the strongest girl when it came to pure electricity generation. GT 1

That Mugino statement is from the OT and wouldn’t apply to post Daihaisei Festival Mikoto anyway. Also it just says a full powered Meltdowner would one shot Misaka [which like, duh? A Railgun would one shot Mugino] but it would also kill Mugino if she were to ever use it. It’s never stated anywhere [tmk] that Meltdowner is a stronger ability.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ye, ye.

Do you have the quote? I'd like to see it.

There is just a bit of context between 'em that makes it notably hard to determine on which one is stronger. Mugino has the stronger output and likely the stronger of the two in terms of offensive power overall but Misaka has better control over her powers overall + she can counter the Meltdowner beams by virtue of them falling into her category of manipulation.

Yeah, Mugino has the output, Mikoto has everything else.

No. the novels are pretty explicit about the Railgun being a stronger electric attack power wise than any other electric ability in the setting.

That Mugino statement is from the OT and wouldn’t apply to post Daihaisei Festival Mikoto anyway. Also it just says a full powered Meltdowner would one shot Misaka [which like, duh? A Railgun would one shot Mugino] but it would also kill Mugino if she were to ever use it. It’s never stated anywhere [tmk] that Meltdowner is a stronger ability.

Iirc, the quotes were explicitly about Meltdowner's destructive capacity or something along these lines, not being a stronger ability in general, but since you've got the quotes about Mikoto, do you have the ones talking about Mugino? I've no idea where to find'em (my Toaru knowledge is getting rusty lol).