Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

He used a non-existent poison that forced CRC to return to its natural existence

And just like Kakine, all that nonexistent means here is that it isn't found in nature, unless you're claiming it is some kind of NEP to which you'd require a lot more of evidence.

And no, that's not even close to what the novel says he did:

Kamijou swept the dragon horizontally to tear the thick cloud apart in an instant and then the color red sprayed out.

The cloud didn’t matter at all.

The dragon released its breath.

It looked like a sharp purple-shining blade, but was that actually the poison stored in an evil dragon’s body being released at extreme pressure?

The box was shredded, the cat was forced out to establish its existence, and then it was killed.
___
His main goal and target from the start was the destruction of the box/cloud and its destruction removes the non-observation state he had to begin with, Touma didn't use any kind of "I force things to exist" hax or whatever you're thinking, the novel makes it clear that he just destroyed the box.

this is an appeal to existence

An appeal to what?

Edit:

Can anyone explain to me why is everyone nowadays reading every single word in Toaru as if it was some kind of hyper reality manipulation hax of some kind or any random kabbalah mention as a beyond conceptual whatever 1A mumbo jumbo? This shit is getting really tiresome to deal with.

 

[ShadeyD]

Why wouldn't the Cloud be afflicted with the non-existence inducement as well?

 

[ShadeyD]

Here's a sandbox I got for Touma and Aleister. Give me your thoughts. Still thinking about AP and speed justifications.

I think Magic Mimicry should be changed to Power Mimicry in general.

 

[XDragnoir]

Why wouldn't the Cloud be afflicted with the non-existence inducement as well?

What?

 

[ShadeyD]

You imply that the Cloud spell is just as easy to get rid of as you blowing wind hard enough to dispell it.

 

[XDragnoir]

You imply that the Cloud spell is just as easy to get rid of as you blowing wind hard enough to dispell it.

Probably not that easy, but there was no such thing as "non-existence inducement" in the entire volume at all, that's complete headcanon.

All we know about the cloud spell is that hitting CRC while he is covered by it is pretty much impossible, absolutely nothing even implied you needed some kind of nonexistent mumbo jumbo to deal with the cloud.

 

[ShadeyD]

All we know about the cloud spell is that hitting CRC while he is covered by it is pretty much impossible, absolutely nothing even implied you needed some kind of nonexistent mumbo jumbo to deal with the cloud.

If you don't agree with that, would normal power null still be applicable for it?
As you pointed at out, The Dragon King physically swept through it.
Which shouldn't be possible for normal physical attacks

 

[Churronzon]

And just like Kakine, all that nonexistent means here is that it isn't found in nature, unless you're claiming it is some kind of NEP to which you'd require a lot more of evidence.

I was only going to list it as intang btw

 

[ShadeyD]

Spatial: The ability to shift into other dimensions so as to avoid and phase through attacks. While this allows them to avoid most forms of attack, they can still be affected by attacks that operate on similar principles and by those with sufficient range to target them in the other dimension

It seems to be the closest to the spatial type of intangibility

 

[Churronzon]

The ones listed on the intangibility page are just examples. We don't need to use any of the categories and can instead just let people think for themselves via reading the justification/scan.

 

[XDragnoir]

If you don't agree with that, would normal power null still be applicable for it?

There's no such a thing as "normal power null", as long as a power null has dealt with similar abilities it will be able to deal with the Cloud spell, if it never dealt with anything akin to it then it won't.

Idk why you're bringing this up tho, like, what's the point?

As you pointed at out, The Dragon King physically swept through it.
Which shouldn't be possible for normal physical attacks

Again, how do you know normal attacks can't do it? Or simply using AoE to fully cover the cloud? Even if CRC himself isn't damaged by the attack before it fully disperses the cloud, NOTHING said the cloud can't be dispersed.

I was only going to list it as intang btw

It should be some kind of Quantum manipulation or high tier matter manipulation as it's clearly using superposition as its basis to avoid the attacks, rather than intangibility.

 

[Aseka]

It should be some kind of Quantum manipulation or high tier matter manipulation as it's clearly using superposition as its basis to avoid the attacks, rather than intangibility.

Should we count it as Probability Manipulation as well?

 

[XDragnoir]

Should we count it as Probability Manipulation as well?

Ehhhhh

I think it should be quantum manipulation, but given our quantum manipulation page is barely existent we may need to add other things to make it more clear.

Or in short, that's a possibility, we should probably discuss that in the thread alongside staff (given it's more of a indexing problem than a exclusively Toaru problem).

 

[Churronzon]

Is Yggdrasil a phase? Why did Othinus specifically call just Asgard as one?
When Othinus was observing the lower world, was she peering from one phase to another (Asgard to Midgard)?

“The head Norse god has an affinity for birds. I would use two raven familiars to gather
information around the world and I would transform myself into a hawk to inspect the
lower world.”

-Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 20 Chapter 2 Part 6

 

[Churronzon]

[Toaru] On Alice surviving Gungnir's destruction

Proposal: I'm looking to give Alice a possible resistance to reality warping. To start off with we have the following WoG in the Afterword of one of the volumes stating that the Transcendents were capable of surviving and killing Othinus in the Black World (which was the aftermath of Othinus...

vsbattles.com

Throw peanuts at me

 

[ShadeyD]

Again, how do you know normal attacks can't do it? Or simply using AoE to fully cover the cloud? Even if CRC himself isn't damaged by the attack before it fully disperses the cloud, NOTHING said the cloud can't be dispersed.

In the Rosicrucian cabal, clouds were an important symbol of covering up wisdom and truth to prevent the unworthy from viewing it. Inside that cloud, no attack could hit him even if made from 0cm away. The entire space could be filled with a dense scattershot, but it would be as useless as trying to attack a cat that may or may not be there because no one could observe it.
-GT9

Doesn't this blatantly debunk the idea that the cloud could be countered using a mundane physical attack?
If the entire space was filled with a dense scattershot, that would make a normal cloud of steam disappear

 

[XDragnoir]

Doesn't this blatantly debunk the idea that the cloud could be countered using a mundane physical attack?

That's talking about CRC while inside it, it doesn't even imply the cloud is impossible to interact with or anything like that, it only says attacks wouldn't hit CRC as long as he is inside of it.

And again, what do you even mean by "mundane physical attacks"? Touma destroyed it with a pressurized poison attack of all things.

If the entire space was filled with a dense scattershot, that would make a normal cloud of steam disappear

Isn't it a normal cloud rather than a cloud of steam?

Anyway, it's still a magical spell, there's no reason it has to be as easily destroyed as that, the point is that it at no moment it was stated to have beeb inflicted with nonexistence or whatever y'all were claiming Touma did.

 

[Churronzon]

"I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. If I lift up my head, I and my Nuit are one. If I droop down mine head, and shoot forth venom, then is rapture of the earth, and I and the earth are one. There is great danger in me..."

What ability is this

 

[Churronzon]

Both SoG and Blood Sacrifice shouldn't be their own keys actually, as both come from amps that his "base form" can use, same reason Accel's Wings aren't keys.

Agreed. So what AP/speed stats would his base key receive? I wouldn't mind him staying at peak human speed but I want to see what people think we should do with his feats of fighting Coronzon/Niang-Niang as SoG wasn't active during NT22.

Should we assume they scaled down their strength to match him?

 

[XDragnoir]

Agreed. So what AP/speed stats would his base key receive? I wouldn't mind him staying at peak human speed but I want to see what people think we should do with his feats of fighting Coronzon/Niang-Niang as SoG wasn't active during NT22.

Ehhh, I think Kamachi just didn't put much thought into that, should just be outliers.

Should we assume they scaled down their strength to match him?

They who exactly? Coronzon? Why would she scale down her strength?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ehhh, I think Kamachi just didn't put much thought into that, should just be outliers.


They who exactly? Coronzon? Why would she scale down her strength?

I assume by "they", Zon meant Coronzon and Niang-Niang, Noir.

Tbh, I do see some merit in this argument. We explicitly know Niang-Niang wholly threw her fight against Aleister for the lols since the latter flat-out said it and he/she is likely one of the few "human" characters in ToAru that can be reasonably trusted to know a MG's capabilities.

AS for Coronzon, eh. 50-50 for me. Wasn't the whole series of event in that "fight" was Mina blocking an attack, them talking, Aleister then attempting to seal Coronzon only for that attempt to end in failure and for him/her to get fatally stabbed and unable to do anything afterwards?

 

[Churronzon]

Agree with the Fanta. We could just say Aleister doesn't scale to someone who intentionally lost.

AS for Coronzon, eh. 50-50 for me. Wasn't the whole series of event in that "fight" was Mina blocking an attack, them talking, Aleister then attempting to seal Coronzon only for that attempt to end in failure and for him/her to get fatally stabbed and unable to do anything afterwards?

Yeah I don't even recall a clash Aleister and Coronzon had without A.A.A.'s.