To Aru Majutsu no Index: Fixing Issues with Accelerator

[MeidoIzayoi]

On a side note, I am wondering why the heck doesn't Accelerator's 5B key powers and abilities doesn't have any of Puzzle's stuff considering that she is basically Accelerator's stand at this point and she hasn't lost any of the abilities that she'd showcased previously iirc. Oh, well. Future CRT stuff, I guess.

feels like he should have summoning instead
I mean
he has this on his profile under his standard equipment

can remotely summon Qliphah Puzzle 545

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

feels like he should have summoning instead
I mean
he has this on his profile under his standard equipment

Yeah. That makes sense, I suppose.

---

Also, guys and gals, do you folks have anything else in your mind in regards to Accelerator, btw?

I'll probably make a summary post in a couple or so days that sums up what was talked about here for the mods to view and hopefully get approvals from 'em.

So figure I should exhaust all possible topics regarding him before I do so.

 

[XDragnoir]

It is important from a story perspective, however. Considering it lead him to becoming chairman of academy city and stuck him in prison.

Why would we name it frok a perspective that has nothing to do with power scaling?

I'm still still sticking with Post-London, heck, I can settle for Post-Coronzon, but I still think Post-Clonoth is a bad key name but if enough people want to still go with that name, I'll go along with it.

...

He got amped from a connection with the Clonoth, so the most logical name it is a clonoth key, London didn't do anything for Accel's powers, Coronzon didn't do anything for him, the power up comes specifically from the connection to the 3rd tree, it's as simple as that.

On a side note, I am wondering why the heck doesn't Accelerator's 5B key powers and abilities doesn't have any of Puzzle's stuff considering that she is basically Accelerator's stand at this point and she hasn't lost any of the abilities that she'd showcased previously iirc. Oh, well. Future CRT stuff, I guess.

it's not on his profile because he can't use it, Qliphah can and his profile lists he can summon her.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Sure, sure. Am not going to change my stance that Post-Clonoth is a dull name, however.

Anything else you have in mind regarding Accel or nah? ... Granted, since we are just going back and forth on key names, probs not.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

Also, guys and gals, do you folks have anything else in your mind in regards to Accelerator, btw?

oh yeah
DT's take on PW Accel's galaxy shaking feat not scale to his physical stats, something I wholeheartedly agree with

also
imo
I think Accelerator and a bunch of Toaru characters can use spoiler warning on their profile
like this character from re:zero for an example

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

oh yeah
DT's take on PW Accel's galaxy shaking feat not scale to his physical stats, something I wholeheartedly agree with

Forgot about that. Ye, that's something I agree with as well.

Considering how that galaxy shaking feat only happened after he planted the Clonoth tree into reality and we are never told if he could "do it again" by planting "another" tree or "uprooting" the planted Clonoth tree and planting it again, I think it might be best to list the galaxy shaking feat as its own thing entirely in the ratings or list it as environmental destruction.

Idk. Thoughts, folks?

also
imo
I think Accelerator and a bunch of Toaru characters can use spoiler warning on their profile
like this character from re:zero for an example

Pretty sure, you can just ask to add spoiler warnings on the applicable toaru profiles in the All-purpose request thread, if you really want it added since it isn't a major thing.

 

[XDragnoir]

list it as environmental destruction.

List it as Environmental Destruction IMO.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

List it as Environmental Destruction IMO.

Since the wings are going to lose their own individual ratings, how should we list 'em in the ratings in Accel's 5-B key?

Like;

higher with Black Wings, even higher with White Wings, far higher with Platinum Wings

Is redundant, imo. So would it best to do something like this;

higher with Black & White Wing Forms, far higher with Platinum Wings

Or is the former fine as it is?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I also just realized one more minor "fix" for Accelerator. His first key shouldn't have the High 6-A rating on it because he only learnt how to do crap with the Earth's Rotation during the Nercomancer Arc in the Accel Manga and showcased the Earth's Rotation strike during OT13.

Moreover as shown in canon, Pre-Headshot Accel didn't experiment with his capabilities as much as Post-Headshot if at all considering the fact that he didn't know he could manipulate wind to perform long-ranged attack until after Touma knocked his ass to the ground during their first fight. So it would stand to reason that Pre-Headshot Accelerator wouldn't know a "application" of his power that Post-Headshot Accelerator knows.

 

[XDragnoir]

Earth's Rotation during the Nercomancer Arc in the Accel Manga

Do you have the chapter that happened? I don't remember a damn thing about Accel manga.

Or is the former fine as it is?

The 2nd option is better.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

I pick the 2nd option as well

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Do you have the chapter that happened? I don't remember a damn thing about Accel manga.

It happened during Chapter 33. Here's an imgur that showcased it.

---

I pick the 2nd option as well

The 2nd option is better.

Got it.

And that's all from me.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Summary - Sandbox | Current Profile

• All three of Accelerator's Keys (Attack Potency with Vector Manipulation-only) will be listed as 6-B as the third key has no reason to be stronger then the previous two key as it goes against the entire narrative of the story and statements regarding Accelerator's power from every character- even the statements made by Accelerator himself
  • Name for Accelerator's Key will be - Pre-Headshot, Post-Headshot, Post-Awakening and Post-Clonoth - and that's that.
• Accelerator's Reflection will not be mentioned at all in the durability section as it is hax to reflect attacks from him completely
• Accelerator's High 6-A rating will be removed from his first key as it involves a technique and info that he discovers later on in his Second Key
• No to Downgrading Black Wing Accelerator's Durability
• Yes to Downgrading White Wing Accelerator's Durability as it using scaling to an attack that left Accelerator unconscious for a great deal of time and was something Accelerator admitted would've killed him if it wasn't weakened by an outside interference (In-profile, it's part in Accelerator's durability will just be listed as even higher)
• Yes to Downgrading Platinum Wings Accelerator's galaxy shaking feat as Environmental Destruction as it used a cosmology changing event to cause it to occur in the first place which as a result will downgrade Platinum Wings Accelerator's base stats to far higher instead of being given a solid rating
• Gave Accelerator's Third Key Transformation in its P&A to account for the Black & White Wings transformation
• Added Regeneration Negation (At Least Mid, possibly High-Mid ; Nephthys couldn't regenerate from his attack after connecting with Clonoth) to Accelerator's Forth Key

---

And that's it. Decided to add Standard Tactics section on Accelerator's profile at a later CRT instead of this CRT.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

for his regeneration negation in his base post-clonoth key, add possibly high-mid
since Nephthys' regen is at least mid, possibly high-mid
so it'd be like this

Regeneration Negation (At Least Mid, possibly High-Mid ; Nephthys couldn't regenerate from his attack after connecting with Clonoth)

edit: oh, the Regeneration part should be linked to regeneration p&a page while Negation to powernull

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

for his regeneration negation in his base post-clonoth key, add possibly high-mid
since Nephthys' regen is at least mid, possibly high-mid
so it'd be like this

edit: oh, the Regeneration part should be linked to regeneration p&a page while Negation to powernull

Done. With both things.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Summary - Sandbox | Current Profile

• All three of Accelerator's Keys (Attack Potency with Vector Manipulation-only) will be listed as 6-B as the third key has no reason to be stronger then the previous two key as it goes against the entire narrative of the story and statements regarding Accelerator's power from every character- even the statements made by Accelerator himself
  • Name for Accelerator's Key will be - Pre-Headshot, Post-Headshot, Post-Awakening and Post-Clonoth - and that's that.
• Accelerator's Reflection will not be mentioned at all in the durability section as it is hax to reflect attacks from him completely
• Accelerator's High 6-A rating will be removed from his first key as it involves a technique and info that he discovers later on in his Second Key
• No to Downgrading Black Wing Accelerator's Durability
• Yes to Downgrading White Wing Accelerator's Durability as it using scaling to an attack that left Accelerator unconscious for a great deal of time and was something Accelerator admitted would've killed him if it wasn't weakened by an outside interference (In-profile, it's part in Accelerator's durability will just be listed as even higher)
• Yes to Downgrading Platinum Wings Accelerator's galaxy shaking feat as Environmental Destruction as it used a cosmology changing event to cause it to occur in the first place which as a result will downgrade Platinum Wings Accelerator's base stats to far higher instead of being given a solid rating
• Gave Accelerator's Third Key Transformation in its P&A to account for the Black & White Wings transformation
• Added Regeneration Negation (At Least Mid, possibly High-Mid ; Nephthys couldn't regenerate from his attack after connecting with Clonoth) to Accelerator's Forth Key

---

And that's it. Decided to add Standard Tactics section on Accelerator's profile at a later CRT instead of this CRT.

These seem alright to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Summary - Sandbox | Current Profile

• All three of Accelerator's Keys (Attack Potency with Vector Manipulation-only) will be listed as 6-B as the third key has no reason to be stronger then the previous two key as it goes against the entire narrative of the story and statements regarding Accelerator's power from every character- even the statements made by Accelerator himself
  • Name for Accelerator's Key will be - Pre-Headshot, Post-Headshot, Post-Awakening and Post-Clonoth - and that's that.
• Accelerator's Reflection will not be mentioned at all in the durability section as it is hax to reflect attacks from him completely
• Accelerator's High 6-A rating will be removed from his first key as it involves a technique and info that he discovers later on in his Second Key
• No to Downgrading Black Wing Accelerator's Durability
• Yes to Downgrading White Wing Accelerator's Durability as it using scaling to an attack that left Accelerator unconscious for a great deal of time and was something Accelerator admitted would've killed him if it wasn't weakened by an outside interference (In-profile, it's part in Accelerator's durability will just be listed as even higher)
• Yes to Downgrading Platinum Wings Accelerator's galaxy shaking feat as Environmental Destruction as it used a cosmology changing event to cause it to occur in the first place which as a result will downgrade Platinum Wings Accelerator's base stats to far higher instead of being given a solid rating
• Gave Accelerator's Third Key Transformation in its P&A to account for the Black & White Wings transformation
• Added Regeneration Negation (At Least Mid, possibly High-Mid ; Nephthys couldn't regenerate from his attack after connecting with Clonoth) to Accelerator's Forth Key

---

And that's it. Decided to add Standard Tactics section on Accelerator's profile at a later CRT instead of this CRT.

Looks okay

 

[XDragnoir]

These seem alright to me.

Looks okay

Thanks for the help you two.

Given it's a major update to a single character, 2 votes should be enough right?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thanks for the help you two.

Given it's a major update to a single character, 2 votes should be enough right?

Yep. ToAru isn't a major verse like Naruto or DB, so two is enough.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Applied! Mods can close this CRT. Or wait. I'll get one.

 

[DontTalkDT]

These seem alright to me.

Looks okay

Just to make sure, have you two read my post?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, almost forgot I saw that comment. I agree with your post.

 

[XDragnoir]

Oh yeah, almost forgot I saw that comment. I agree with your post.

You agree with which parts tho? Listing the reflection or the other part?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

snip

Really, really, bad timing, eh. Couldn't have messaged earlier. Anyways, counter arguments. The quotes that upfront stated Accelerator is inferior to himself before his brain damage.

“You really are pathetic! Listen up, ‘cause I’m only gonna tell you this once.” The person spread his arms slowly to either side in the darkness. “I did take some brain damage that day. As you can see by looking at my face, I’ve gotta outsource all my calculations with these electrodes now. If I go out of range of those damn clones’ waves, they can’t help me do the calculations. I don’t even know if I’ve got half my old power left. I wouldn’t last fifteen minutes in real combat with how ******* terrible this thing’s battery life is.” “But—” said Accelerator, pausing. “—just because I’ve gotten weaker doesn’t mean you got any stronger, now, does it?”

OT8

“I can’t do this with math, but I have to solve it somehow, so I’ve brought together every single bit of knowledge I have. I do have the #1 brain in Academy City after all. I’m not particularly proud of it, but I have a lot packed in here. And so I started doing a self- search through every part of my head pulling out every kind of information and just pulling it out and pulling it out and pulling it out.” His words alone continued. Misaka Worst should know what he meant. His calculative and linguistic abilities were being supplemented by the almost ten thousand Sisters. In other words, his original intellectual specs were simply that great.

OT22

However, is this really something worth being shocked over? It was already hinted at a long time ago. Like that brain-crippled Accelerator using an external network to help him calculate, Musujime Awaki using a low frequency therapy apparatus to stabilize her mind...there’s no need to stick to just the human body

NT1

certain situation had led to Accelerator’s brain being severely injured, so he could not use his power of the strongest or even stand on his own two feet or understand human language without receiving calculation support from the Misaka Network via his choker.

“Academy City esper powers are controlled using high level calculation ability. Even if you don’t normally think of it that way, you are still carrying out complex calculations without knowing it. Throwing that out of order can be quite useful. There’s no harm in starting with that, don’t you think?”

NT6

“Even the #1’s reflection is reliant on the calculations you use to control that power. Simply put, you cannot control any vectors with which your conscious and unconscious calculations cannot keep up. Of course, with the brain of Academy City’s #1 and the Misaka Network at your disposal, that would not normally present any kind of problem. ...Yes, unless you began a benchmark test with a true processing device. And even if I have been freed from the bonds of that largescale parallel processing device, I am still doing the Thoth Tarot.”

NT19

While, yes. Other factors can be things that are used to strengthen an Espers' power, but... Calculations and processing power are literally 90% of the driving force of an Esper's ability.

“His mathematical abilities…” For Accelerator, that could be lethal. In order to alter vectors, he needed to calculate the vector before changing it and the vector afterward.

"Calculation ability..." This was critical damage to Accelerator, as he had to first calculate the 'direction before reflection' and 'direction after reflection' before he could use his ability. Even if he could unconsciously use the reflection ability, it was because he unknowingly calculated the simplest formula. He wouldn't be able to use his ability, even the most basic reflection."

“I know all about it! You don’t have your calculation abilities right now. That power you once had is gone! You can’t use it! You’re not the strongest esper anymore, or even close!!” she shouted as though elated by her triumph.

His calculative and linguistic abilities were being supplemented by the almost ten thousand Sisters. In other words, his original intellectual specs were simply that great.

For Accelerator to get stronger, he would have to outright overcome his brain damage and develop calculating ability that is superior to the Misaka Network. Or more simply put, he would need to cure his brain damage. Neither of which has currently come up in-canon, so that's it. His condition hasn't changed, so his power, therefore, hasn't changed.

Moreover, unlike Puzzle, Clonth and PW, Accel's BW / WW are never once mentioned to supplement his calculation abilities, which again are the backbone of his vector manip, so there is no reason to believe that they strengthen it after he unlocked 'em.

Also. Logically speaking... How can weakened processing power equal to better/stronger processing power? Vector manipulation is literally just Accelerator being a math nerd and enforcing his calculation into reality.

Also Copying & Pasting Zensum's old argument for a second regarding "Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should."

---

This issue with this quote from the article as an argument is Accelerator and Misaka, through the power curriculum, naturally have the potential for level 5 because of their innate talent and strong minds, which allow them to grasp and understand that phenomena. See Parameter List where they determine Mikoto has the predisposition for level 5 back when she was only a level 1 and that the potentials of individual were all determined before they started studying and before they even entered the schools. Firm ideologies and principles are more related to personality and built up with personal growth and experiences and obviously aren't known when they are still children. They could more importantly potentially factor into what type of power an Esper develops. For example:

Mugino Shizuri. Academy City’s #4 Level 5. Her power was known as Meltdowner. Electrons always appeared as either a particle or a wave, but her power let her emit them while they were fixed in a pure state that could not distort into either form. That attack known as the Particle-Function Waveform High Speed Cannon held enough destructive power to slice apart an Aegis ship. Had she acquired such a power because her personality had been brutal from the beginning or had she gained a brutal personality from acquiring such a power? There may have been no one who could answer to that chicken-and-the-egg question, but there was no mistaking the fact that Mugino Shizuri currently had a personality that befitted the #4 Level 5.

All of this is important, but since we are discussing Accelerator this article is assuming a non-damaged brain. Your quote is also about them reaching level 5 in general which Accelerator was before his injury.

When did his base power get stronger is the issue? I understand his angel wings have to do with his ideology, self-realization and emotions and all that. I understand he unlocked his wings at critical points in his development. Angel synchronization and anger = Black, Pillar of support, magic parchments and self-realization = White... But what does that have to do with his base vector control? Where is there any indication in the novel his base actually got stronger and he at least got over his ability being described as less than half of its original? Also this quote doesn't address the fact his brain is shot so all of his actual ability usage is outsourced and how would that factor to whatever growth he undergoes. It's a leap in logic to say unlocking angel wings, that are essentially an amp that do vector-related calculations on their own for him, also increase his actual brain's ability in base without any evidence...

---

There is also this.

A white breath entered the biting night air.

Simply put, she had been stewing. She was afraid that boy would leave her behind and she wanted to pursue him if she could. But how could she? She was one of Academy City’s seven Level 5s. She was the #3 Railgun. That undoubtedly made her a rare person, but that also meant that she had nowhere else to go and that she could not turn back.

That immense and stable power was the worst possible restraint.

She had nothing that especially stuck out.

(So what am I supposed to do now?)

Even if she mastered Academy City’s Curriculum, she doubted the #3 Railgun could defeat the #1 Accelerator. That had been proven by cold calculations, so there was no doubting it.

Even with their great power and growth, Level 5s, once they hit their cap, is unable to grow beyond that without some outside factor, i.e, AAA for Misaka, DM body for Kakine and Puzzle for Accel.

Again, Accel's only way to overcome his issue of losing more then half of his power is either strengthening his damaged brain to do something that it literally can't do without help (he can't), curing his brain damage (he can't) or getting something else to do calculations for him (which he did in-canon via Puzzle and Clonth tree)... and all of this is just to do math better, mind you.

---

Also. Again. Reflection is hax. It literally redirect things away from Accelerator. No more, no less. It shouldn't be mentioned in the durability section as it doesn't offer a non-hax physical protection like what is offered from traditional forcefields or shields or doesn't increase his physical survivability like regen or immortality.

That's the long and short of it.

---

Welp, this thread is going to go on for awhile then expected.

Best to scrap my other toaru plans and focus on this thread and make that misaka thread to overcome this issue entirely.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I disagree with reflection not being listed in the durability section. It is effectively that and much more informative for the reader to have it listed there. It's similar to how some characters have something like "regeneration makes them hard to kill" listed to point out how some particular ability makes them in practice far more durable than the rating suggests. We do the same with passive forcefields above the tier as well, e.g. Eragon.

The harder to kill because of regeneration is so nonsensical when it put on the durability section since it has nothing to due with durability at all. Forcefields on the other hand actually block an attack and have a durability limit and is used for protection so i can agre with that but if reflection doesn't have a durability threshold and is simply reflecting it without taking it then i don't consider it worth being there. Now if it does have a durability threshold then I think it's fine.

What the whole backwards scaling is concerned: It is true that at the time the statement was made he was weaker. Anything beyond that is speculative backwards scaling. It doesn't at all go against the narrative that Accelerator is stronger later on. That is assuming that Esper abilities are 100% determined by calculation which is provably wrong.

It's stated both in general and explicitely for Accelerator that their esper power's strength are also influenced by other factors.
Accelerator unlocked two super modes (black and white wings) and did so specifically due to ideological and emotional factors. It's weird to think that he can not have grown in base, when we clearly see growth in general.
Honestly, there are more arguments, but I may as well just link to the whole thread where it was decided that we don't backwards scale him.
In simple terms, you need an actual statement saying that he didn't get stronger at the time you want to backwards scale.

Then it should be noted that while he stated on a note that he's weaker, his power is influenced by other factors.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Just to make sure, have you two read my post?

Was focused on that summary post the OP asked me to evaluate, I have responded to your post now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. Idk if staff votes ever expire though.

If the thread dies then the vote also dies, since there's always a chance the person changes their mind.

For the thread I haven't though. I would say to list the High 1-C potency in his vector manipulation though. I get DT's point that it's easier for people to get by reading durability though, but I just don't think its durability at the end of the day. Since he's not withstanding anything rather than redirecting the attack, since even in the Eragon example its him using magic to absorb or block an attack, rather than redirect it.

Dunno about the rest, I'll have to read more into it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The harder to kill because of regeneration is so nonsensical when it put on the durability section since it has nothing to due with durability at all. Forcefields on the other hand actually block an attack and have a durability limit and is used for protection so i can agre with that but if reflection doesn't have a durability threshold and is simply reflecting it without taking it then i don't consider it worth being there. Now if it does have a durability threshold then I think it's fine.

I think it's debatable whether reflection has no durability limit. We for a long long time had a note on Accelerator's page reading

Note: There are two schools of interpretation about Accelerators passive reflection. One interpretations states that his reflection only changes the direction of the vectors, but does not involve their magnitude. By that interpretation the magnitude of the attack does not matter, but only whether or not the attack has a vector and if Accelerator can calculate it. Another interpretation assumes that the ability involves magnitude and by that is limited to reflecting attacks of the energy Accelerator was shown to control. None of the two interpretations could give certain proof for their interpretation to this point. The current durability statistic of Accelerator is made by assuming the latter interpretation.

We removed it, as it became practically irrelevant when the threshold of the reflection was upgraded to Tier 1: Whether it reflects Tier 1 attacks via hax and potency, saying that it works on higher dimensional levels than it has shown would be a NLF anyway.

Then it should be noted that while he stated on a note that he's weaker, his power is influenced by other factors.

Sure, we can add a note. Does that mean you agree with not backwards scaling him?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Really, really, bad timing, eh. Couldn't have messaged earlier.

Yeah, when I commented I was just done with my post on Ultima's tiering revision (which is obviously more important). It was an awkward coincidence that I happened to get done with that at that moment in particular.

Anyways, counter arguments. The quotes that upfront stated Accelerator is inferior to himself before his brain damage.

OT8

OT22

NT1


NT6

NT19

While, yes. Other factors can be things that are used to strengthen an Espers' power, but... Calculations and processing power are literally 90% of the driving force of an Esper's ability.





For Accelerator to get stronger, he would have to outright overcome his brain damage and develop calculating ability that is superior to the Misaka Network. Or more simply put, he would need to cure his brain damage. Neither of which has currently come up in-canon, so that's it. His condition hasn't changed, so his power, therefore, hasn't changed.

Moreover, unlike Puzzle, Clonth and PW, Accel's BW / WW are never once mentioned to supplement his calculation abilities, which again are the backbone of his vector manip, so there is no reason to believe that they strengthen it after he unlocked 'em.

Also. Logically speaking... How can weakened processing power equal to better/stronger processing power? Vector manipulation is literally just Accelerator being a math nerd and enforcing his calculation into reality.

Also Copying & Pasting Zensum's old argument for a second regarding "Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should."

---

This issue with this quote from the article as an argument is Accelerator and Misaka, through the power curriculum, naturally have the potential for level 5 because of their innate talent and strong minds, which allow them to grasp and understand that phenomena. See Parameter List where they determine Mikoto has the predisposition for level 5 back when she was only a level 1 and that the potentials of individual were all determined before they started studying and before they even entered the schools. Firm ideologies and principles are more related to personality and built up with personal growth and experiences and obviously aren't known when they are still children. They could more importantly potentially factor into what type of power an Esper develops. For example:



All of this is important, but since we are discussing Accelerator this article is assuming a non-damaged brain. Your quote is also about them reaching level 5 in general which Accelerator was before his injury.

When did his base power get stronger is the issue? I understand his angel wings have to do with his ideology, self-realization and emotions and all that. I understand he unlocked his wings at critical points in his development. Angel synchronization and anger = Black, Pillar of support, magic parchments and self-realization = White... But what does that have to do with his base vector control? Where is there any indication in the novel his base actually got stronger and he at least got over his ability being described as less than half of its original? Also this quote doesn't address the fact his brain is shot so all of his actual ability usage is outsourced and how would that factor to whatever growth he undergoes. It's a leap in logic to say unlocking angel wings, that are essentially an amp that do vector-related calculations on their own for him, also increase his actual brain's ability in base without any evidence...

---

There is also this.

Even with their great power and growth, Level 5s, once they hit their cap, is unable to grow beyond that without some outside factor, i.e, AAA for Misaka, DM body for Kakine and Puzzle for Accel.

Again, Accel's only way to overcome his issue of losing more then half of his power is either strengthening his damaged brain to do something that it literally can't do without help (he can't), curing his brain damage (he can't) or getting something else to do calculations for him (which he did in-canon via Puzzle and Clonth tree)... and all of this is just to do math better, mind you.

---

Also. Again. Reflection is hax. It literally redirect things away from Accelerator. No more, no less. It shouldn't be mentioned in the durability section as it doesn't offer a non-hax physical protection like what is offered from traditional forcefields or shields or doesn't increase his physical survivability like regen or immortality.

That's the long and short of it.

---

Welp, this thread is going to go on for awhile then expected.

Best to scrap my other toaru plans and focus on this thread and make that misaka thread to overcome this issue entirely.

Your assertion that Esper powers are 90% math is not supported in canon. In fact, Sisters have the same brain as Misaka x10000 and lower level than her.
The idea that he would need to retake his calculation power to become stronger is not founded in canon. It is like saying that if Goku lost an arm that he would never become stronger than when he had 2 arms. Yeah, losing an arm is a huge handicap, but it doesn't mean you can never outgrow it.
If their powers are given by convictions, then changing those convictions would influence them. That much is common sense. The article also mentions several other factors that influence esper ability strength, all of which could have increased as Accelerator used his power more and went to much development and strive.

I can also repeat my argument from the last thread regarding how several institutions of researchers in the field of psychic powers apparently believed that fighting can make espers grow in power.

That if a character gets a super mode they probably get stronger in base is overall is a reasonable assumption, especially if we due to the article can infer that it is due to a changing factor that generally is related to ability strength.

Also, all in all, you literally present no actual evidence that he stayed the same strength. You only show that his calculation powers are still lowered, none that his powers in general are still lowered. Your entire argument boils down to "We have no sufficient evidence that he got stronger, so we should backwards scale him." But we don't operate under the principle "scale characters until we have a reason not to scale them". We only scale characters if we have evidence that proves they should be scaled to each other. You need proof that he definitely can't have grown stronger and that you don't have.
Honestly, his increasingly impressive feats alone are a pretty decent argument for him getting stronger.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think it's debatable whether reflection has no durability limit. We for a long long time had a note on Accelerator's page reading

Which has long been removed because the interpretation it has some kind of AP limit when it's reality warping makes no sense, we don't limit hax by joules output.

And regardless of that, this isn't the kind of thing that goes on the Durability section, It's is not durability in any way, shape or form.

Not only that, if you want to list something that people should know when reading his profile, list his Calculation speed which has been accepted as 2x light speed since eons ago and isn't in his profile, instead you're trying to add a stat that doesn't make sense to his profile and how hax works.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Sure, we can add a note. Does that mean you agree with not backwards scaling him?

I'm fine with that but it seems others are still debating the topic but if other factors influence his strength then it is what it is.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

snip

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Sure, fine. Awkward thing to ask, but can either one of you revert the edits to Accelerator's profile? I don't know how to do it myself. I'm just going to drop this CRT entirely and request for either one of you to have this close, and i'mma focus on another ToAru CRT that might side-step this issue with Accelerator entirely... or another verse entirely for a bit, as this embarrassment really took the wind out of my sails, if you get what I mean.

 

[XDragnoir]

Awkward thing to ask, but can either one of you revert the edits to Accelerator's profile?

The only thing that needs to change is the stats for his first two keys, everything else is fine as it is.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The only thing that needs to change is the stats for his first two keys, everything else is fine as it is.

Nah. I'm pretty sure that both DDM and Griffin are siding with DT on this one, I think it is best to just rollback everything especially since what they agree on is smth against the bulk of this CRT.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Which has long been removed because the interpretation it has some kind of AP limit when it's reality warping makes no sense, we don't limit hax by joules output.

That wasn't the official reason it was removed IIRC.
And describing it as reality warping is misleading. It's as much reality warping as Misaka's lightning.

And regardless of that, this isn't the kind of thing that goes on the Durability section, It's is not durability in any way, shape or form.

It's as much durability as a passive forcefield is. There really is no good reason not to point out that this character can't be hurt by anything below Tier 1 attacks. It's blatantly misleading IMO.

Not only that, if you want to list something that people should know when reading his profile, list his Calculation speed which has been accepted as 2x light speed since eons ago

What kinda whataboutism is this?

Nah. I'm pretty sure that both DDM and Griffin are siding with DT on this one, I think it is best to just rollback everything especially since what they agree on is smth against the bulk of this CRT.

I ain't going to reverse stuff that is still approved.


That said, now that I take another look, I see I missed the environmental destruction thing. I don't think I agree with that either. It's not really said that adding the tree shook the galaxy. It's said that shacking the galaxy and adding the tree removed the soul. Holistic phenomenons are the big effect is caused first to create the small one. The galaxy shacking is the big effect here, so I don't think one can say it isn't done via force IMO.
I don't think it should scale to durability or anything, but I don't think it's environmental destruction either. Should just be his regular supernatural AP in Platunim wings form IMO.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

That wasn't the official reason it was removed IIRC.
And describing it as reality warping is misleading. It's as much reality warping as Misaka's lightning.

It's as much durability as a passive forcefield is. There really is no good reason not to point out that this character can't be hurt by anything below Tier 1 attacks. It's blatantly misleading IMO.

What kinda whataboutism is this?

I ain't going to reverse stuff that is still approved.


That said, now that I take another look, I see I missed the environmental destruction thing. I don't think I agree with that either. It's not really said that adding the tree shook the galaxy. It's said that shacking the galaxy and adding the tree removed the soul. Holistic phenomenons are the big effect is caused first to create the small one. The galaxy shacking is the big effect here, so I don't think one can say it isn't done via force IMO.
I don't think it should scale to durability or anything, but I don't think it's environmental destruction either. Should just be his regular supernatural AP in Platunim wings form IMO.

I am still of the opinion that reflection just doesn't fit in the durability section. Couldn't we just put the "limit" of Accelerator's reflection in a note at the bottom of Accel's profile or smth as a compromise?

Okay, then. We can leave it to another CRT, ig.

I mean... Can Accelerator even do it again? The entire galaxy shake happened because he implanted the Clonth tree into reality, ya? So... can he even do it again? Because the only way for Accelerator to achieve the same effect again is either uprooting the tree (and negating its effect on Toaru's comsology) and implanting it again into the world or just making a new tree and implanting that into reality in hopes of achieving the same effect. To be fair, we only seen the PW twice, so we can't be sure that he "can't" do it twice, but still... The galaxy shake requires certain elements that Accelerator can't pull out by himself, so ED fits the bill, imo.

On a side note; doesn't Accelerator also only on-screen use of the force of the galaxy shake was forcibly astral project a person's soul, so wouldn't the astral projection take precedence here? ... Will also admit I am hesitant to list the galaxy shake as pure AP since it opens the door of Coronzon's dura scaling to it, which is a bag of worms that I want to ignore.

 

[XDragnoir]

And describing it as reality warping is misleading. It's as much reality warping as Misaka's lightning

What? Misaka's reality warping gives her control over electrons, the control part comes from RW so it is RW, Accel's RW straight up affects the direction something is moving to, it doesn't have a medium like Mikoto with the electrons, the RW is applied directly onto his target by the Vector Shield. This is basic Toaru knowledge, you think the Vector Shield physically blocks the attacks and then sends them back or something like that? We already give all espers things like Probability hax and Subjective Reality.

It's as much durability as a passive forcefield is. There really is no good reason not to point out that this character can't be hurt by anything below Tier 1 attacks. It's blatantly misleading IMO.

A passive forcefield actually blocks something just like any physical body would, that's why it has durability, the Vector Shield doesn't work like that.

We removed H1C from Touma for the exact reason, it's not durability, it's hax, we won't be having this discussion again as the conclusion with Touma and Kamisato was already in favor of removing it from their profiles. Also, if you really want to, I can search for other examples of smurf hax protections that don't go in the durability section, but since Toaru already has its own examples I don't think it's even worth the effort.

What kinda whataboutism is this?

Just a side note.

That said, now that I take another look, I see I missed the environmental destruction thing. I don't think I agree with that either. It's not really said that adding the tree shook the galaxy. It's said that shacking the galaxy and adding the tree removed the soul. Holistic phenomenons are the big effect is caused first to create the small one. The galaxy shacking is the big effect here, so I don't think one can say it isn't done via force IMO.
I don't think it should scale to durability or anything, but I don't think it's environmental destruction either. Should just be his regular supernatural AP in Platunim wings form IMO.

"Environmental Destruction describes a character's capability to damage and destroy an area around themselves, but not necessarily their capacity to realistically harm their opponent"

Straight from the ED page, Holistic Powers fit it perfectly, they can destroy galaxies with their power but can't apply this AP to direct attacks, so no it doesn't scales to PW's regular AP and whatever causes the galaxy to shake (the wings themselves, Clonoth, whatever it is) doesn't change absolutely anything.

Also, the profile doesn't say adding the tree shook the galaxy?

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

A passive forcefield actually blocks something just like any physical body would, that's why it has durability, the Vector Shield doesn't work like that.

I mentioned TK users before on why Vector Shield is listed as durability as I find Accel's ability to manipulate vectors do share a lot of traits with Telekinesis users protecting themselves with their TK power and have it listed as their durability, especially when Accelerator redirecting Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword is why Accelerator has immeasurable LS similar with TK users lifting things with their TK power.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mentioned TK users before on why Vector Shield is listed as durability as I find Accel's ability to manipulate vectors do share a lot of traits with Telekinesis users protecting themselves with their TK power and have it listed as their durability, especially when Accelerator redirecting Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword is why Accelerator has immeasurable LS similar with TK users lifting things with their TK power.

Pure TK isn't listed as Dura in any profile I know from famous TK users, Jean Grey has her Forcefields listed but there's no mention of TK, meanwhile Xavier doesn't have anything other than his normal Dura listed.

So 2 things, 1st give me an example of profile that does that, 2nd explain how TK fits the definition of Durability, should we give 4B Durability to Gabriel now?

Accel has Immeasurable LS because he can affect higher dimensional objects with his powers, Flaming Sword has nothing to do with it.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

Pure TK isn't listed as Dura in any profile

TK barrier is one possible uses of TK power, and I only mentioned it as a TK power to separate with other non-TK forcefield users. TK barriers essentially preventing things from harming its user from TK ability to affect objects with just a thought, unlike a conventional barrier.

should we give 4B Durability to Gabriel now?

Gabriel doesn't even have TK on its p&a, let alone forcefield creation.

Accel has Immeasurable LS because he can affect higher dimensional objects with his powers, Flaming Sword has nothing to do with it.

nah

Accelerator Lifting Strength Revision

So while I was in the process of applying the last approved revision for Accelerator I had to redo the keys and realized that his lifting strength justification is... lacking. The current justification is weird. It's things like "Class Z by being comparable to AP". AP and LS are different...

vsbattles.com

As you can see in the durability section of the page Accel's vector redirection ability is accepted as High Complex Multiverse level. That is due to the fact that he can redirect forces like Coronzon's Flaming_Sword. In other words his ability to just redirect vectors/forces/energy is at such a level.
Hence his LS should be 'Immeasurable' via vector control. Accel's ability would allow him to lift basically anything with effectively Tier 1 strength. No matter how heavy it is, Accel can just use that Tier 1 redirection to invert the influence gravity has on the object to make it float up.
Similarly, he can essentially deal with all other LS scenarios. Like, if someone tries to hold him in place, he can just invert the force holding him in place and get free.

So yeah, he should get "Average Human, Immeasurable via vector control", since he can use his tier 1 ability to lift stuff.