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tier upgrade Light novel tensura

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Not open for further replies.
Dread said:
Also, infinite prison has nothing to do with its size. It is more eternal (staying at prison forever) than it is, talking about the size.
Click to expand...
dread what are you saying rn you're only talking out of disbelief which I find offending towards the verse scaling
if you want to disagree it's fine don't add and don't remove from what the context prepares
infinity prison is an infinite sized space that locks whatever is meant to be elected for all of eternity it's literally in the OP before you argue you should read whole context and the argument of others as we have also posted volume 1 scans
I don't even understand what you're saying I still won't even agree you're not a reliable source of information towards the Japanese as well I don't see why "roar" isn't and wasn't included in context so I don't think All what you're arguing about have any deeper information towards it

for 2929992929 times I and nihility with others like thunderian and catpjia have been saying it doesn't have a time limit
it can't hold a target like velgrynd longer than 200 second aka 3 minutes
and it was a more binded space that ciel could control

you're just saying stuff radamonly you waited for peak which used MTL and you're saying it doesn't differs from his? so how am I supposed to trust you this is the reason celestial pegasus told us to wait for the yp you're not a reliable source and you didn't use vsbattle wiki translator
your arguments along with peak have been invalid awhile ago

no one have any solid arguments against the high universal scaling except you want to add information beyond 15 which won't be accepted in the first place before jumping the gun dread you better contact celestial pegasus and elizhaa and what do think about it
 
simply said:
Its relevant because even tho it wasnt mentioned that velgrynd shattered the insulated imprisonment, its implied that way, in the context when ciel predicts velgrynd while rampaging will be held out in the insulated imprisonment for 200 seconds,

and we can see that velgrynd is angry here, and rampaging.
context is key and i think its very heavily implied that velgrynd rampaged for 200 seconds inside of the insulated imprisonment and shattered it after 200 seconds, which is according to ciel's calculation.
so i have reason to belief she did so.
Click to expand...

dread is very wrong she is adding her own information to this which is very wrong
what does she mean they never said "roar" she is using MTL to literally translate it
no translation is perfect but the one most trusted is yenpress
 
Starfeldway said:
dread is very wrong she is adding her own information to this which is very wrong
what does she mean they never said "roar" she is using MTL to literally translate it
no translation is perfect but the one most trusted is yenpress
Click to expand...
Yeah, i know but i am still countering her arguement even tho i trust OTL more and believe its the correct translation, because i think the reason yp interpreted like that is due to the context and if you look at the context behind it with that translation it still implies that velgrynd shattered it.
 
I'm once again asking for OP's party to post the raw text to investigate the matter. If you failed to do it, then I will still disagree with the thread simply.
It has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with transparency, @Peak only posted part of it. I am asking for the whole of it.

Read, understand, think and then post, @Starfeldway because I am nowhere saying I don't trust anyone. But a claim is made, the raw text proves who is right and who is wrong.
 
Last edited:
Dread said:
I'm once again asking for OP's party to post the raw text to investigate the matter. If you failed to do it, then I will still disagree with the thread simply.
It has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with transparency, @Peak only posted part of it. I am asking for the whole of it.

Read, understand, think and then post, @Starfeldway because I am nowhere saying I don't trust anyone. But a claim is made, the raw text proves who is right and who is wrong.
Click to expand...
well then it's fine I'll find the whole Context to it
 
Dread said:
I'm once again asking for OP's party to post the raw text to investigate the matter. If you failed to do it, then I will still disagree with the thread simply.
It has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with transparency, @Peak only posted part of it. I am asking for the whole of it.

Read, understand, think and then post, @Starfeldway because I am nowhere saying I don't trust anyone. But a claim is made, the raw text proves who is right and who is wrong.
Click to expand...
which scan’s raw do you want?
 
Dread said:
The text prior to @Peak part. I need a whole text for it.
Click to expand...
alr sure


“　眩いような白い肌が、黒と金の混じった妖気に包まれていた。
　そしてリムルが不満気に何事か囁くと、その身を覆っていた妖気が神々しいまでの漆黒の全身衣へ変化した。
　悪魔族が得意とする『物質創造』で、衣服を具現化して見せたのだ。その身から洩れ出ていた魔素を用いたにしても、どれほどの強度の武具となったのか底知れないものがあった。
　リムルは、有り余るエネルギーをピタリと抑え込んだ。そして満足したように、ニヤリと笑みを浮かべたのである。

　ヴェルグリンドは、囚われた牢獄の中からその様子を見ていた。”

“　途中から、エネルギーの譲渡も中断している。
　目の前の出来事が信じられず、呆然となっていた。
　自身の弟である〝暴風竜〟と〝魔王〟の戦いは、ヴェルドラが圧倒的に有利なはずであった。上回る事など絶対に有り得ないのだ。
　もしも有り得るとすれば、それは最初から〝同格〟の存在であったという事……。
（偶然？　まさか……偶然そこで生まれただけだった、というの!?）
　思考の海に沈んだヴェルグリンドは、その驚愕の答えに到達した。しかし、そう簡単に認める事など出来なかった。
　当然である。”

.
“　たまたま〝竜種〟の近くで生まれた魔物が、〝竜の因子〟に適合する〝魂〟を持って生まれて来た──などと、そんな偶然が起こるはずがないからだ。
　本当に五番目に生まれた〝竜種〟であるならば、それは弟とも呼べる存在である。だがしかし、リムルはヴェルドラを喰らって〝竜種〟へと進化した。そんな存在を〝竜種〟と呼ぶなど、ヴェルグリンドには認められなかったのである。
　言うなれば、〝竜種〟に似た何か。
　そんなおぞましい存在など認められないし、認めたくもない。
　今ここで消滅させておくべきだ──と、ヴェルグリンドの本能が”


“訴えかけていた。
　それこそが、弟の敵討ちにもなるのである。
　ヴェルドラはヴェルグリンドにとって、可愛い弟だったのだ。
　生意気で暴れん坊で、とても手がかかる存在ではあったが、それでも自由で羨ましかった。手駒にするつもりではあったが、長き竜の寿命からすれば微々たる年月。消滅させるつもりなど毛頭なかったし、事が済めば解放するつもりであった。
　それなのに──
　………
　……
　…
　目の前でヴェルドラが喰い尽くされたのだと理解した瞬間、ヴェルグリンド”

.
“ヴェルグリンドは怒りによって理性が吹き飛ぶ思いがした。
「よくも……私の可愛い弟を──ッ!!」
　ヴェルグリンドが怒りの咆哮を上げた。
　二百秒などとっくに経過しており、”
 
So alright after contacting with @Starfeldway and @simply one, I got all significant information.

「よくも……私の可愛い弟ヴェルドラを──ッ!!」 　ヴェルグリンドが怒りの咆哮を上げた。 　二百秒などとっくに経過しており、『断熱牢獄』が砕け散る。 　〝灼熱竜〟が今、理性を捨てて自分の保身を顧みる事もせず、リムルに向けて敵意を剥き出しにする─

How dare you... my cute little brother Verdor--!" Verglinde shouted in anger. Two hundred seconds had already passed, and the "Insulating Prison" had been shattered. The "Inferno Dragon" had now abandoned reason and was openly displaying hostility towards Rimuru without considering his own safety.
“　眩いような白い肌が、黒と金の混じった妖気に包まれていた。 　そしてリムルが不満気に何事か囁くと、その身を覆っていた妖気が神々しいまでの漆黒の全身衣へ変化した。 　悪魔族が得意とする『物質創造』で、衣服を具現化して見せたのだ。その身から洩れ出ていた魔素を用いたにしても、どれほどの強度の武具となったのか底知れないものがあった。 　リムルは、有り余るエネルギーをピタリと抑え込んだ。そして満足したように、ニヤリと笑みを浮かべたのである。 　ヴェルグリンドは、囚われた牢獄の中からその様子を見ていた。” “　途中から、エネルギーの譲渡も中断している。 　目の前の出来事が信じられず、呆然となっていた。 　自身の弟である〝暴風竜〟と〝魔王〟の戦いは、ヴェルドラが圧倒的に有利なはずであった。上回る事など絶対に有り得ないのだ。 　もしも有り得るとすれば、それは最初から〝同格〟の存在であったという事……。 （偶然？　まさか……偶然そこで生まれただけだった、というの!?） 　思考の海に沈んだヴェルグリンドは、その驚愕の答えに到達した。しかし、そう簡単に認める事など出来なかった。 　当然である。” . “　たまたま〝竜種〟の近くで生まれた魔物が、〝竜の因子〟に適合する〝魂〟を持って生まれて来た──などと、そんな偶然が起こるはずがないからだ。 　本当に五番目に生まれた〝竜種〟であるならば、それは弟とも呼べる存在である。だがしかし、リムルはヴェルドラを喰らって〝竜種〟へと進化した。そんな存在を〝竜種〟と呼ぶなど、ヴェルグリンドには認められなかったのである。 　言うなれば、〝竜種〟に似た何か。 　そんなおぞましい存在など認められないし、認めたくもない。 　今ここで消滅させておくべきだ──と、ヴェルグリンドの本能が” “訴えかけていた。 　それこそが、弟の敵討ちにもなるのである。 　ヴェルドラはヴェルグリンドにとって、可愛い弟だったのだ。 　生意気で暴れん坊で、とても手がかかる存在ではあったが、それでも自由で羨ましかった。手駒にするつもりではあったが、長き竜の寿命からすれば微々たる年月。消滅させるつもりなど毛頭なかったし、事が済めば解放するつもりであった。 　それなのに── 　……… 　…… 　… 　目の前でヴェルドラが喰い尽くされたのだと理解した瞬間、ヴェルグリンド” . “ヴェルグリンドは怒りによって理性が吹き飛ぶ思いがした。 「よくも……私の可愛い弟を──ッ!!」 　ヴェルグリンドが怒りの咆哮を上げた。 　二百秒などとっくに経過しており、”

"The dazzling white skin was wrapped in black and gold mixed demon energy. And when Rimuru muttered something with dissatisfaction, the demon energy covering his body transformed into a full body suit of jet black. It was materialized using the "Material Creation" technique that demons are good at, and no matter how much it was made with magic elements, it was unknown how strong the armor was. Rimuru firmly suppressed the excess energy. And with a satisfied smile, he nodded.

Verglinde watched the scene from inside the imprisoned prison."

"Energy transfer was also interrupted in the middle. Verglinde was stunned and speechless at the unbelievable sight in front of him. The battle between his younger brother, the "Storm Dragon," and the "Demon King" should have been overwhelmingly advantageous for Verdor. It was absolutely impossible to surpass him. If it were possible, it would mean that he was an existence of the same rank from the beginning... (Coincidence? No way... is it really just a coincidence that he was born there!?). Verglinde, who had sunk into the sea of thought, reached the shocking answer. However, he couldn't accept it so easily. Of course. "

"It is impossible for such a coincidence to occur, where a monster born near a "Dragon Race" has a "soul" that fits the "Dragon Factor" and was born. If he were truly the fifth "Dragon Race" born, he would be an existence that could be called a younger brother. But Rimuru ate Verdor and evolved into the "Dragon Race." Verglinde couldn't accept such an existence being called a "Dragon Race." In other words, something like a "Dragon Race." He couldn't accept such a shocking existence and wouldn't recognize it as a "Dragon Race." He couldn't allow it. He couldn't allow it. Verglinde screamed in anger and despair."

This is the same translation as @Peak did. I confirmed it with my friend and I used an entirely different website that translates each term and in this bolded text, it nowhere mentioned “rage/roar” anywhere.

Well, this is not even my part of concern or why I am neutral. I wanted to know the context prior to @Peak part because only this can clarify the outcome. Which is "Simply Raw text". Nothing much talked about Velgrd rage. So I got this raw text.

「ヴェルグリンドが暴れまくったとしても、隔離監禁は合計で二百秒以上持続する。そこまで気にする必要はないと思うが。えーと、三分と変化でも結構だった」感謝しているが、ヴェルグリンドは依然として大きな脅威だ. 私はずっとそれを無視することはできません. 200秒以内に刑務所を破壊する

"Even if Verglinde went berserk, the isolated confinement will last for more than two hundred seconds. I don't think it's necessary to worry about that. Um, it would have been enough to change in three minutes." I am grateful, but Verglinde is still a major threat. I can't ignore it all the time. Destroy the prison within 200 seconds.

So I can safely say the prison did not shatter itself. May I ask what happens as next? This also clarify my concern.
 
Dread said:
May I ask what happens as next? This also clarify my concern.
Click to expand...
“　俺はヴェルドラを喰った事で、新たな種族へと生まれ変わったようだ。
　竜魔粘性星神体というらしいが、これで俺も〝竜種〟の仲間入りである。
　──亜種だけど。
　もはやスライム関係ないよな、と思ったのは秘密である。
　今更だし、それは気にしたら負けなのだ。

　新たな身体を確かめる。
　魔素を消費せずに生み出せる本体が、かなり大きくなった。
　成長したというべきかな？
　今では高校生くらいの背丈である。”

well i doubt it changes much, its about rimurus evolution to a td, but its the part right after it.
 
Last edited:
Dread said:
Ya, change my disagreement to agreement. The context prior to outcome and the context subsequent make it meaningless if the prison itself was shattered.
Click to expand...
Haaaaaaah....Finally.The reason why I was repeating the 1st scan is because I wanted everyone who disagreed to understand the whole thing and the relation between the two scans .
 
Dereck03 said:
Can I get a TL; DR of the conclusions of the 2 sides? This will make it much easier to provide an evaluation.
Click to expand...
What's TL ,DR ?Translation and Disagreement reaosns😂
1.They said insulated imprisonment had time limit and shattered on its own based in these

:
(in order )
1.Calculation of Velgrynd’s magicule count complete. After accounting for the subject’s nature and characteristics, I determined it is possible to encase the target in Insulated Imprisonment for several hundred seconds. Activating!

2."Even if Velgrynd went on a violent rampage, the Insulated Imprisonment will hold for a total of two hundred more seconds. I don’t think we need to worry about that, however.
Um, why not?
Even three minutes and change were something to be grateful for, but Velgrynd’s still a major threat. I can’t just ignore it that whole time…"

3.She let out a raging roar. It was well past two hundred seconds, and that roar was enough to shatter the Insulated Imprisonment. The Flame Dragon was enraged, with no regard for her own self-preservation—and now she would unleash all her hostility upon Rimuru.

ii.Said it breaks the consistent scaling chain

iii.Used Google TL and ignored OTL(which we always use ) .[I am not against using raws here but if you look at the whole context yen pres translation seems the best )
 
Dereck03 said:
Can I get a TL; DR of the conclusions of the 2 sides? This will make it much easier to provide an evaluation.
Click to expand...
okay
Well throughout the whole thread only peak disagrees
but the reason was because he thought Insulation imprisonment can hold out for only 200 seconds
looking at the op insulation imprisonment is an infinite space with no time limit as it is eternal
we all provided raws and scans to counter argument peak on this and it was successful however

Nihility have given you the rest reasons
thanks
you can check the op for more information
and yes it is tier upgrade for true dragon level characters to be high 3-A
via my arguments
and since peak reasons didn't happen canonically I won't support his argument
as he said she analysed it which wasn't shown velgrynd just screamed and it got destroyed
but oh well
please share with us what you think
 
Starfeldway said:
Well throughout the whole thread only peak disagrees
but the reason was because he thought Insulation imprisonment can hold out for only 200 seconds
looking at the op insulation imprisonment is an infinite space with no time limit as it is eternal
we all provided raws and scans to counter argument peak on this and it was successful however

Nihility have given you the rest reasons
thanks
you can check the op for more information
and yes it is tier upgrade for true dragon level characters to be high 3-A
via my arguments
and since peak reasons didn't happen canonically I won't support his argument
as he said she analysed it which wasn't shown velgrynd just screamed and it got destroyed
but oh well
please share with us what you think
Click to expand...
☕️
also insulated imprisonment being infinite and being eternal is because its a combination of unlimited imprisonment and spatial insulation and unlimited imprisonment has been proved to be infinite and eternal.
and after dread translated the raws i think both counterarguement
1. It has time limit and shattered itself after it.
2. Insulated imprisonment is not infinite.
have been debunked.
 
oyasumi said:
rimuru should be the only one to get H3A as long this argument still going
Click to expand...
Velgrynd also gets and anyone at TD level; and the arguement has already ended, dread translated the raws, and the prison didn’t shatter itself, please scroll up.
 
Antvasima said:
@Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @Community_Gamer @Metalballrun @CrimsonStarFallen

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this revision thread please?
Click to expand...
I'm familiar with the arguments presented by the OP. I don't want to get into any drawn out discussion so I'll be brief.

Firstly, I don't agree with the 3-A upgrade.

I don't believe Velgrynd's feats are meant to be interpreted in such superfluous manner. I think we've all seen cases where authors use universe, dimension, world, etc interchangeably. So I don't agree that it necessarily refers to the size being relative or comparable to the observerable universe. Maybe if realms in Tensura had clearly defined sizes and it was compared to those realms THEN this argument would be more compelling.

That's not even addressing how the ability itself to create the Eight Gates or Dream Fortress could just be a creation hax.

Also these dimensions she's creating are still physical present in the reality of the material world. Rather than creating separate space-times its like shes using barriers to the spatial manipulation to create these isolated zones/areas or dimensions within the world.

For example the Eight Gates she trapped the Patrons in was all aboard and held within Rudra's flagship. It was also perceptible and interactable from the outside. Diablo broke in after Carrera weakened the dimension.

Finally I'm just going to touch on consistency.

If you scale Velgrynd and characters of that tier to universal then you have to consider some things.

Why are Planetary and Star level attacks consistently brought up in reference of notable?

Why are top tier characters like Guy, Dagruel, and Milim, thinking Ivarage is impressive for threatening to destroy stars?

Why is destroying the planet the consistency for being top tier? Why would Velgrynd even be injured by Carrera BEFORE she awakens (meaning she has no planetary statement yet) if Velgrynd is universal?

Anyways there are a lot more examples to give especially in V20. But I'll stop there.

As for 5-B upgrades. I'll just say that Abyss Annihilation is the only attack Carrera has that is 5-B. So if characters don't scale to Abyss Annihilation then they shouldn't be planetary because Carrera herself doesn't scale to that attack.
 
Community_Gamer said:
I'm familiar with the arguments presented by the OP. I don't want to get into any drawn out discussion so I'll be brief.

Firstly, I don't agree with the 3-A upgrade.

I don't believe Velgrynd's feats are meant to be interpreted in such superfluous manner. I think we've all seen cases where authors use universe, dimension, world, etc interchangeably. So I don't agree that it necessarily refers to the size being relative or comparable to the observerable universe. Maybe if realms in Tensura had clearly defined sizes and it was compared to those realms THEN this argument would be more compelling.

That's not even addressing how the ability itself to create the Eight Gates or Dream Fortress could just be a creation hax.

Also these dimensions she's creating are still physical present in the reality of the material world. Rather than creating separate space-times its like shes using barriers to the spatial manipulation to create these isolated zones/areas or dimensions within the world.

For example the Eight Gates she trapped the Patrons in was all aboard and held within Rudra's flagship. It was also perceptible and interactable from the outside. Diablo broke in after Carrera weakened the dimension.

Finally I'm just going to touch on consistency.

If you scale Velgrynd and characters of that tier to universal then you have to consider some things.

Why are Planetary and Star level attacks consistently brought up in reference of notable?

Why are top tier characters like Guy, Dagruel, and Milim, thinking Ivarage is impressive for threatening to destroy stars?

Why is destroying the planet the consistency for being top tier? Why would Velgrynd even be injured by Carrera BEFORE she awakens (meaning she has no planetary statement yet) if Velgrynd is universal?

Anyways there are a lot more examples to give especially in V20. But I'll stop there.

As for 5-B upgrades. I'll just say that Abyss Annihilation is the only attack Carrera has that is 5-B. So if characters don't scale to Abyss Annihilation then they shouldn't be planetary because Carrera herself doesn't scale to that attack.
Click to expand...
that's nice and all but what about the high 3-A upgrade
 
that's nice and all but what about the high 3-A upgrade
ciel is high 3-A
-"Even if Velgrynd went on a violent rampage, the Insulated Imprisonment will hold for a total of two hundred more seconds. I don’t think we need to worry about that, however.
Um, why not?
Even three minutes and change were something to be grateful for, but Velgrynd’s still a major threat. I can’t just ignore it that whole time…"

Everyone who disagreed straight up ignored this or brought up Time limit (which is nowhere to be found ) .Ciel predicted that Velgrynd can destroy the prison within 200 seconds

-How dare you ...... take my sweet little brother Veldra!"
　Vergrind roared in anger.
　Two hundred seconds had already passed, and the "insulated prison" shattered.
　The "scorching dragon" has now abandoned reason, and without regard for his own self-preservation, he unleashes his hostility towards Rimuru...

-the insulated imprisonment was perfectly under ciels palm
Click to expand...
This was a compound skill, combining the ultimate skill Uriel’s Unlimited Imprisonment with Spatial Insulation. Ciel had crafted it just now, exclusively for use against Velgrynd, and now she was caught in it.
The combat airspace had been fully computed by Ciel—the temperature, humidity, gravity, wind currents, sunlight, the pulses of every living thing within it. It was all in the palm of Ciel’s hand, and no matter what Velgrynd did, it’d be impossible for her to leave this airspace.
The blinding light of this Insulated imprisonment

then let me explain
we all knowledgeably know that unlimited imprisonment is an infinite eternal space that seals its target with no way to escape

as you can see ciel used spatial insulation+ unlimited imprisonment which made her calculate all of velgrynd and determine or predict when velgrynd will shatter all of it- its not through velgrynd analysis that'll be head canon arguments
it didn't shatter itself,that's off context
Click to expand...
as what we provided ciel could only hold it out for 200 seconds against the likes of velgrynd and you know that unlimited imprisonment have an infinite capacity also infinite time
we can take examples from volume 11 chloe and hinata soul that were in there
for eons cuz we don't know how old they are because of time leap- you can argue they entered there
veldora was sealed there for 300 years

now we've gotten that out of the way
- consistencies
please avoid using further arguments against this as yenpress havent really translated volume 17 to know if the weak worlds are planets or actual universes when they do we shall update the thread and consider her escape different
but based on raws and yenpress currently velgrynd just made a roar and the space shattered

- if you don't accept this then know that ciel controlled that space like its hers
reading the context above says
"humidity,gravity and all things within this airspace>isolated imprisonment< all are in the palm of Ciel’s hands"

also about the planet stuff
-we shouldn't go that far yet,later on with more volumes and when yenpress translates it we would understand it deeper as shown its kinda like no one can destroy it because it was built by the power of veldanava+ holy tree to maintain magicule + it heals itself over time even when destroyed
I'll like to see your after commendation on this community gamer san
 
as thus wasn't previously accepted
I and dread looked through the scans and yes it's OK
also got the Japanese raw for an actual Japanese citizen which is friend of dreads to translate it with full context
 
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Minaaaa
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