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Tier Possibly 2-A to Possibly Tier 1 Sonic Cosmology

If I had a nickle for every time I've seen Robot get into an argument over the definition of an English word relating to Sonic the Hedgehog, I'd have two nickles.

Anyways, tbf the idea of Many Worlds Theory in Sonic is supported by Shadow the Hedgehog, given you need to go through ten other endings. Not to mention it's been outright confirmed that other Sonic canons are parallel universes from the games. So, if MWT is proven in any individual Sonic canon (Obviously excluding Archie Pre-Super Genesis Wave and probably old Sonic Bible canon stuff like the promo comic and SatAM), then it would most likely would apply to the games as well.

It's worth noting that Sigma's infinite universes statement in Post-SGW wouldn't count since that was including several crossover verses not normally a part of Sonic's multiverse.
 
The 2-A stuff seems good to me so I at least agree with that.

Also, why are people arguing about Sonic needing help to beat Solaris means he doesn't scale to him in terms of power?

Solaris uses the same power source as Super Sonic so the scaling on power and speed should not be an issue period.

And Sonic only needed help due to Solaris' temporal omnipresence since he can't be beaten unless you take him out in all 3 points in time. Take that away, Sonic doesn't need no help. And if one argues that the TO was no issue to begin with, that just means Sonic wanted to finish the bad guy off as quickly as possible. Which going by the various endgame bosses? Is definitely in-character for him to do imo. Because Sonic as a series is always about the "Power of Friendship".
 
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Gasper said:
Not really. Higher dimensions don't automatically mean they're qualitatively superior to each other.
Click to expand...
That's why vsbw's tiering system doesn't work in my opinion, because a higher dimension is a higher dimension, not just another space in what is apparently believed to be 3d.
but again,this is irrelevant considering this thread was not accepted
 
Alexander said:
That's why vsbw's tiering system doesn't work in my opinion, because a higher dimension is a higher dimension, not just another space in what is apparently believed to be 3d.
but again,this is irrelevant considering this thread was not accepted
Click to expand...
Spatial dimensions are just axis of movement not some transended planes of reality or anything like that.
 
Gasper said:
Not really. Higher dimensions don't automatically mean they're qualitatively superior to each other.
Click to expand...
But Ian Flynn said the concepts of infinity exists in Sonic as well



Eitaro Toyoda said something about mathematical knowledge of sets and sequences existing in Sonic

here and here

Which means the principle of the Hausdorff Dimension exists as well as they have to do with the concepts of dimensions and sets

The Hausdorff Dimension being part of the Cantor set


The dimensions do exist, and the infinities exist as well.

So in one way there shouldn’t be an issue with Tier 1 although 2-A is the much stronger option here.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
But Ian Flynn said the concepts of infinity exists in Sonic as well



Eitaro Toyoda said something about mathematical knowledge of sets and sequences existing in Sonic

here and here

Which means the principle of the Hausdorff Dimension exists as well as they have to do with the concepts of dimensions and sets

The Hausdorff Dimension being part of the Cantor set


The dimensions do exist, and the infinities exist as well.

So in one way there shouldn’t be an issue with Tier 1 although 2-A is the much stronger option here.
Click to expand...

Why are we using Twitter statements again?
 
Gasper said:
Spatial dimensions are just axis of movement not some transended planes of reality or anything like that.
Click to expand...
Spatial Dimensions have to do with size and magnitude as well so they’re not just axis of movement they serve other purposes.
 
Gasper said:
Sure but this dosen't mean Higher dimensions view the lower ones as fictional.
Click to expand...
Higher dimensional scaling as nothing to do with being seen as fiction. There’s no scientific or metaphysical explanation for why being seen as fiction would be a form of higher existence, it’s a terrible argument. Higher dimensions only have to be bigger than the lower ones and if someone asked Ian if higher dimensions are bigger than lower ones then I’m pretty sure he’d say yes.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Higher dimensional scaling as nothing to do with being seen as fiction. There’s scientific or metaphysical explanation for why being seen as fiction would be a form of higher existence, it’s a terrible argument. Higher dimensions only have to be bigger than the lower ones and if someone asked Ian if higher dimensions are bigger than lower ones then I’m pretty sure he’d say yes.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

You just proved my point. But you need R>F difference on this site.
 
Gasper said:
Spatial dimensions are just axis of movement not some transended planes of reality or anything like that.
Click to expand...
either way it's not like that's not possible.
I mean, where is a higher plane of existence in a 3d dimensionality? So, it's not in 3d, because it's not on the same plane.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Where’s the source?
Click to expand...
"Please refrain from creating content revision threads that consist solely of links to off-site sources (such as Youtube, Reddit, other VS forums, etc.) and have no discernible arguments of their own. Many of these sources are not made with our specific standards in mind, lack proper source references, and may contain a lot of arguments that have already been discussed or are useless for the purpose of the relevant threads, which makes them hard to evaluate. As such, it is highly encouraged that when creating a content revision thread based on off-site sources, our members should specify their core arguments in detail with relevant evidence. It is also acceptable to post such threads in the general discussion or questions and answers sections of our forum for discussion, rather than in the content revision section. Furthermore, adding a link to a respect thread or character analysis video with the intention of providing quick access to a large collection of feats is acceptable, but each of those feats should be analysed step by step to ensure that they are not presented out of context, and any calculation-dependent feats should be placed in wiki blog posts and evaluated by our calc group members to ensure sufficient accuracy."
 
Gasper said:
"Please refrain from creating content revision threads that consist solely of links to off-site sources (such as Youtube, Reddit, other VS forums, etc.) and have no discernible arguments of their own. Many of these sources are not made with our specific standards in mind, lack proper source references, and may contain a lot of arguments that have already been discussed or are useless for the purpose of the relevant threads, which makes them hard to evaluate. As such, it is highly encouraged that when creating a content revision thread based on off-site sources, our members should specify their core arguments in detail with relevant evidence. It is also acceptable to post such threads in the general discussion or questions and answers sections of our forum for discussion, rather than in the content revision section. Furthermore, adding a link to a respect thread or character analysis video with the intention of providing quick access to a large collection of feats is acceptable, but each of those feats should be analysed step by step to ensure that they are not presented out of context, and any calculation-dependent feats should be placed in wiki blog posts and evaluated by our calc group members to ensure sufficient accuracy."
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s not saying not to use Twitter statements, that’s really just saying not to use other people’s posts unless they have arguments of their own.
 
Gasper said:
Nothing here suggests infinite superiority
Click to expand...
So not just the concept of higher dimensions but the “concepts” of higher dimensions and not just the concept of infinity but the “concepts” of infinity and you’re saying nothing has infinite superiority? Did you read the Tiering System and read the tiers involving R^n? The 5th dimension is infinitely bigger than the 4th and so on on this wiki.
 
Gasper said:
The video you used is someone else's video on YouTube
Click to expand...
The video itself is a clip of Ian Flynn’s statement for quick access, it’s quick and straight to the point only presenting what Ian Flynn himself said. Nothing is wrong with using it.
 
Gasper said:
The video you used is someone else's video on YouTube
Click to expand...
Actually this is the only place that does not accept twitter or youtube statements, but at the same time it does accept them.
I mean, let me see if I understand, are statements from outside sources accepted or not?
 
ThatBusyDude said:
So not just the concept of higher dimensions but the “concepts” of higher dimensions and not just the concept of infinity but the “concepts” of infinity and you’re saying nothing has infinite superiority? Did you read the Tiering System and read the tiers involving R^n? The 5th dimension is infinitely bigger than the 4th and so on on this wiki.
Click to expand...
Yes i did. Go ask any staff on their post wall about how we treat higher dimensions on this wiki.
Also, DC is literally being downgraded because it didn't show any superiority between dimensions.
 
Gasper said:
Yes i did. Go ask any staff on their post wall about how we treat higher dimensions on this wiki.
Also, DC is literally being downgraded because it didn't show any superiority between dimensions.
Click to expand...
again,why dimensions need to proof the R>F thing when that same thing is not really how dimensions work in first place,without mentioning it is

unnecessary due to things like the existence of a statement of dimensions that are not universes or something like that. I mean, they're just discrediting things because they don't like it and that's it.
 
Gasper said:
Yes i did. Go ask any staff on their post wall about how we treat higher dimensions on this wiki.
Also, DC is literally being downgraded because it didn't show any superiority between dimensions.
Click to expand...
Sonic has Transfinite Mathematics though.
 
Alexander said:
again,why dimensions need to proof the R>F thing when that same thing is not really how dimensions work in first place,without mentioning it is

unnecessary due to things like the existence of a statement of dimensions that are not universes or something like that. I mean, they're just discrediting things because they don't like it and that's it.
Click to expand...
Look man, don't ask me about this. That's just how it is on this wiki
 
Gasper said:
Look man, don't ask me about this. That's just how it is on this wiki
Click to expand...
and that is way this wiki is not the best,yeah,other wikis are not the best(csap has alot of incomplete profiles,and all fictions battles has alot of things wrong in concept manipulation and other things related)but even so, that doesn't make vsbw better for everything, my god that makes it a huge pain,because alot of the decision mades are just based on the fact that people don't like stuff,and they just don't argue correctly about it(that's why irrelevant speed does not exist anymore,becuase of people don't liking or understanding conceptual trascendence)

I mean, if people believe that transcending a concept is not possible, because, eggs or they don't like it, there is a problem, but it is worse if people believe that a concept is limited by the number of things that exist in a verse. That's one of the biggest problems people have when it comes to conceptual manip. Believing that a concept = number of things that exist is not the correct way of how a concept works.
 
Alrighty let’s start off with modal realism, it doesn’t really matter. Lewis’s view is pretty strict and wouldn’t offer tier 1, the nature of modality assumes our worlds are intrinsically parallel to one another and isolated both casually and spatio-temporally, meaning:
“If a thing in a cosmos x bears spatial or temporal relations to a thing in a cosmos y, then x and y are on that account the same cosmos.”
Click to expand...
Or
“If an action on cosmos A affects cosmos B, they are the same cosmos”
Click to expand...
Which would probably cause an issue in the type of multiverse we’re proposing which, isn’t the most important thing but raises a dissonance in your proposition given it is saying higher dimensions are inherent due to the actual world having one. Therefore using the Temporal dimension as a form of reference would be inadequate to the tenants of modal realism. If you want a simpler explanation: other physically possible structures must be stated not assumed otherwise it creates an incoherency.

On a similar note, quantum mechanics (probability distribution) does not offer higher dimensions for the same reason because the implication of how many dimensions there are is a necessity for the symmetry between universes and fluctuations to stay coherent.


Next is the space that Eggman created. Out of personal curiosity I decided to read the comic and I could not see the implication that is is infinite-dimensional, though, the space is described as being expansive and tessellated meaning it acts in a way that doesn’t overlap or have gaps while repeating its pattern to geometrically fill itself. This means that it is a labyrinth or maze in the sense that it endlessly loops so you would never find a physical exit which is evident as the realities they go through are simulated.

We even see a representation of a tesseract right before they fight egg man’s robots in the final scene and a tesseract for that matter “tessellates” Euclidean space, so it does rightfully prove the space is high dimensional but the idea of an infinite amount of directions/axis is not implied given they travel the usual directions of 3 dimensional space. The only seemingly high dimensional sensation is the entire space itself for being able to treat pretty large spaces as minuscule paths and pieces of an infinite magnitude.



The BDE part doesn’t really appeal to me.
Alexander said:
again,why dimensions need to proof the R>F thing when that same thing is not really how dimensions work in first place,without mentioning it is

unnecessary
Click to expand...
He means that the justification is wildly easier to analyze if the nature of the dimensions are Reality-fiction due to the subject of ontology being a prominent figure of superiority.
 
Guardian_Doge said:
Alrighty let’s start off with modal realism, it doesn’t really matter. Lewis’s view is pretty strict and wouldn’t offer tier 1, the nature of modality assumes our worlds are intrinsically parallel to one another and isolated both casually and spatio-temporally, meaning:

Or

Which would probably cause an issue in the type of multiverse we’re proposing which, isn’t the most important thing but raises a dissonance in your proposition given it is saying higher dimensions are inherent due to the actual world having one. Therefore using the Temporal dimension as a form of reference would be inadequate to the tenants of modal realism. If you want a simpler explanation: other physically possible structures must be stated not assumed otherwise it creates an incoherency.

On a similar note, quantum mechanics (probability distribution) does not offer higher dimensions for the same reason because the implication of how many dimensions there are is a necessity for the symmetry between universes and fluctuations to stay coherent.


Next is the space that Eggman created. Out of personal curiosity I decided to read the comic and I could not see the implication that is is infinite-dimensional, though, the space is described as being expansive and tessellated meaning it acts in a way that doesn’t overlap or have gaps while repeating its pattern to geometrically fill itself. This means that it is a labyrinth or maze in the sense that it endlessly loops so you would never find a physical exit which is evident as the realities they go through are simulated.

We even see a representation of a tesseract right before they fight egg man’s robots in the final scene and a tesseract for that matter “tessellates” Euclidean space, so it does rightfully prove the space is high dimensional but the idea of an infinite amount of directions/axis is not implied given they travel the usual directions of 3 dimensional space. The only seemingly high dimensional sensation is the entire space itself for being able to treat pretty large spaces as minuscule paths and pieces of an infinite magnitude.



The BDE part doesn’t really appeal to me.

He means that the justification is wildly easier to analyze if the nature of the dimensions are Reality-fiction due to the subject of ontology being a prominent figure of superiority.
Click to expand...
Actually modal realism would offer tier 1 because it is essentially possibilism, possibilism basically would imply that possible worlds exist where things are 5D instead of 4D, 6D instead of 5D and so on. It would also implicate possible worlds relating to different concepts of cardinality. It should be said that modal realism is the philosophy that possible worlds exist and are actual so if Ian Flynn says that Sonic’s world is compatible with that then all possibilities that could be are within that world. No one was using spatiotemporal dimensions as support for modal realism that’s not how it works.

I was told Schrödinger’s quantum mechanics functions as an infinite dimensional hamiltonian system so take that as you will.

Eggman’s space folds in on itself and grows infinitely and Ian Flynn already agreed that it was infinite dimensional.

Eitaro Toyoda impliethe concepts and knowledge of Hypercubes might exist in Sonic The Hedgehog’s world and in other dimensions and that what Sonic viewed in IDW was in fact a Hypercube





But that one Hypercube was simply an aspect of the space not the entirety and Eggman’s space is a dimension so the concepts of Hypercubes exists there which means higher dimensional things exist there. This directly justifies higher dimensional scaling there outright at the very least.

That’s not what he said nor what he meant. He was using the reality-fiction nonsense as an actual method of scaling which VSBW themselves rarely allows even then it’s more than “I see you as fiction” it’s actually more “I see you as fiction and you are a speck compared to my existence.”
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Actually modal realism would offer tier 1 because it is essentially possibilism, possibilism basically would imply that possible worlds exist where things are 5D instead of 4D, 6D instead of 5D and so on. It would also implicate possible worlds relating to different concepts of cardinality. It should be said that modal realism is the philosophy that possible worlds exist and are actual so if Ian Flynn says that Sonic’s world is compatible with that then all possibilities that could be are within that world. No one was using spatiotemporal dimensions as support for modal realism that’s not how it works.
Click to expand...
Ehhhhh, modal realism has different views and each of these are strictly axiomatic schemas for different structures. Modal realism can have a Necessitarian view, a Possiblism view, an Actual view so on and so forth. And as far as I understood from the OP, you were using modal realism to assume the existence of other higher dimensions despite..not existing. So, yeah I’m only explaining how the basis of Lewis’s view worked which still holds against the compatibility. And for the record, no one is rejecting the idea of the multiverse, but there’s no implication each possible world should extend to what you say, because well, it’s not shown. And by spatial-temporal isolation, I meant that it implies the cosmoses are parallel but separate from each other which contradicts a multiverse theory like MWI. So anyway like I said, not substantive for higher dimensions.



ThatBusyDude said:
I was told Schrödinger’s quantum mechanics functions as an infinite dimensional hamiltonian system so take that as you will.
Click to expand...
Hamiltonian systems are dynamic systems meaning they measure the evolutionary process (state) of a quantum structure, so being infinite dimensional for that implies an infinite amount of possible states the system would undergo transformation. The phase space is what implies spatial axis (I think it’s compatible with temporal dimensions too).
ThatBusyDude said:
But that one Hypercube was simply an aspect of the space not the entirety and Eggman’s space is a dimension so the concepts of Hypercubes exists there which means higher dimensional things exist there. This directly justifies higher dimensional scaling there outright at the very least
Click to expand...
I already agreed it’s higher dimensional but by functionality it cannot be infinite dimensional, structures of this nature require a specifically stated amount of axes to perform geometric rotations on. So like I said, if we assume, which I’m fine with, one path being a four dimensional analogue, the entire space would be five dimensional by necessity due to how tessellation is generalized on higher dimensions. But there is no implication of infinite spatial axis as the space is cyclical and has a pattern that fills gaps.

Basically it’s one really big tower that uses spatial warping shift around them, hence, folds back on itself and grows [expansively] infinitely. The maze itself has no association with any other axes except the clear tesseract.

ThatBusyDude said:
That’s not what he said nor what he meant. He was using the reality-fiction nonsense as an actual method of scaling which VSBW themselves rarely allows even then it’s more than “I see you as fiction” it’s actually more “I see you as fiction and you are a speck compared to my existence.”
Click to expand...
(It’s usually mentioned as a standard in tier 1 threads, umineko is one of those R>F examples, which is Im pretty sure what he meant.)
 
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