RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,604
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Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol
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Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol
I was just meaning a hypothetical situation man. Just saying. Looking forward to that match btw.Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.
Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol
Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol
There's a small (Lol) misunderstanding here, & I think something said here earlier bares repeating:The gameplay videos shows me the danmakus have just the amount of space required to dodge through it.
That.They are not as small as a SOUL, and not meant for the kind of dodging that the game makes Kris able to accomplish.
They actually do, but it's not in the profile and their addition is awaiting a CRT (but it's agreed on)."SOUL Height = 37.37 cm (The SOUL is bigger in the Dark World)"
A SOUL is over 4 & a half times smaller by height than most average men, who'd be around 170 cm, if not more.
Ergo, when you look at what happens in the bullet board, & go by that, it should be noted the leeway isn't that much; The gaps between the attacks are only around 22% of a person's height.
Do the Kamen Riders have Acrobatics so as to drastically reposition their bodies mid-air?
AFAIK, a typical person's body cannot fit through gaps that size without notable re-angling.
They actually do, but it's not in the profile and their addition is awaiting a CRT (but it's agreed on).
However, the location of the place also aids in their evasion of the danmaku. Since they're fighting in a dumpand not a bloody dumpster,there will be much space for manoeuvrability, making things easier to dodge. Secondly, there's going to be a plethora of items there that they can use to shield themselves from the danmakus in addition to their dodging, so they can stay in the battle longer, though those are all one-time uses. Shadow Moon's TK can use bigger objects to shield themselves even better.
Thirdly, their blades will help tremendously in deflecting and blocking against the danmaku too.
Their blades can swing at an arc (duh), thereby deflecting the lines of danmaku they come across as they cross the gap.
We also keep forgetting that Queen and Berdly can also becoming Shadow Moon's shields for their danmaku via TK.
For further context, this is Shadow Moon in his Kaijin Form. Fair enough that him in this key will get hit like that. But we're using the Kamen Rider Shadow Moon key, so again he's not going to stand there like an idiot and take that like a champ. I'm just showcasing that Shadow Moon can do this, obviously this isn't the only thing he can do at this point.respectfully
that man stood still against a couple wind gusts, swung his blade once, and got hit twice. then he ran up to a stationary target and hit them once
that doesn't really help your case lol
Steady streams that have patterns. Again, their danmaku are neither Sans Level not Touhou Project levels, meaning that they can overcome this obstacle well. That's why I've been here for 4 pages talking about this. If it were anything along that line, I would've voted or surrendered a long time ago.and again, most of queen and berdly's attacks don't come in waves or lines like what you just said, they come in steady streams shotgunning across the battlefield. they'd have to be raiden to make that many slashes over and over again in quick succession
have i voted yetWe still need one more vote...
You haven’t, yeah.have i voted yet
cus if it's just going to go to incon then it doesn't really matter which side gets the vote right?
Do not.
Do not make me write a long post like this.
I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.
Edit: Fe-ck it, I'm doing it.
I do sincerely apologize for any bother.Do not.
Do not make me write a long post like this.
I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.
Edit: Fe-ck it, I'm doing it.
Imaginym is so humble and kind.I do sincerely apologize for any bother.
I worry this thread has been vexacious & tiring for many of the participants.
That said, I've no opposition to you doing so. A good debate is thorough, with arguments presented & considered from all sides.
I do again apologize for the bother.Do not.
Do not make me write a long post like this.
I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.
I do not argue they are incapable of dodging.Yeah, the Riders dodging argument has been kind of wanked imo. Just because you can sense something doesn’t mean you’ll automatically be able to dodge it. Case in point the hundreds of times Spider-Man has gotten his shit rocked despite seeing the attack coming via Spider Sense.
Lol, thank you. Flattery (Though it may be wrong of me to speculate this is such.) will get you everywhere, or so I've read.Imaginym is so humble and kind.
You can't hate this guy.
For the record, I wasn't arguing that they wouldn't, just that they wouldn't be able to dodge everything for the reasons above. From my understanding, it was argued prior that the Riders would be able to dodge every attack they could throw at them, which I found a bit dubious.I do not argue they are incapable of dodging.
I argue their behaviour makes them not guaranteed (50/50, maybe? I've seen scans in this thread where they took a hit they could've dodged, & vaguely recall stuff about taking hits to use their TK?) to choose to dodge, despite that their abilities give them the knowledge on how to dodge, somewhat compounded by that they presumably will not know the power of the attacks before being hit by them.
To their credit, IIRC about what I've read in this thread, they would apparently know the location & directions of the projectiles via their senses.For the record, I wasn't arguing that they wouldn't, just that they wouldn't be able to dodge everything for the reasons above. From my understanding, it was argued prior that the Riders would be able to dodge every attack they could throw at them, which I found a bit dubious.
You're not wrong about the consensus that they have the "take hits to deal hits" mentality, and it's especially very obvious in the early parts of the series and personal fights between each other in the later parts. However, this only applies to melee opponents and CQC opponents. Queen and Berdly are ranged opponents, first and foremost, so they don't risk getting shot at in character (it is also because they usually fight humans, who usually incorporate guns though a few Kaijins have ranged attacks). With this in mind, they will be dodging and evading the danmaku while they advance onto their opposition.There's been a fair amount of evidence showing that the KRs are willing to tank attacks to try & initiate their TK, or to charge in.
Similarly, I'd assume it's not something they'd foresee that their opponents who are sending multiple projectiles are several times stronger than them; Usually, they fight someone comparable.
Ergo, while they have the skill to dodge, if their in-character behaviour doesn't show an inclination to do so, they might not do so.
Another issue is that in the 2 seconds or so where they're approaching (& closing distance wouldn't be easy with Speed Equalized, & Berdly & Queen, as projectile users seeing opponents charging at them, would probably want to back away.) they might not be able to get a grip on TK long enough.
&/or, while they're initiating TK, they get hit with an attack they don't know they need to dodge. Again, they have the skills & senses to know where the attacks are & where they're coming from, but their characterization, from what I've seen, doesn't suggest they do dodge often, & are willing to take hits to try & do hits.
A "take hits to deal hits" mentality here, especially one which could be presented by such supposedly bloodlusted-against-nonhumans characters as these does not trade well when only a few hits from your opponents can leave you injured & possibly performing worse, even if they probably have fought well with injuries.
Part of the issue, even if they do try to dodge, is many of the gaps are likely going to be covered by intersecting Danmaku.
There's much less room for error than there would be againast Queen or Berdly individually, & again, a SOUL-sized gap is less than 40 cm.
A concern that comes up:You're not wrong about the consensus that they have the "take hits to deal hits" mentality, and it's especially very obvious in the early parts of the series and personal fights between each other in the later parts. However, this only applies to melee opponents and CQC opponents. Queen and Berdly are ranged opponents, first and foremost, so they don't risk getting shot at in character (it is also because they usually fight humans, who usually incorporate guns though a few Kaijins have ranged attacks). With this in mind, they will be dodging and evading the danmaku while they advance onto their opposition.
So they're murderous & prioritizing killing? How do we know how this affects their tactics?Another point to clarify is that yes, they're bloodlusted, but not in a way that their judgment is clouded or anything. What I mean is that they'll do anything to kill their opponents.
Jumping would be travel speed. Assuming Speed Equalized, I don't see why this would be faster than their usual locomotion.As for clearing distance, it does take two seconds to run to Queen and Berdly, and since they're definitely going to go out of range for Shadow Moon's TK, they can jump to close the gap faster, since iirc there's nothing about jump height Equalization that I know of. Their jump can clear quite the distance, meaning that they can reach Queen before she flies out of range.
I mentioned earlier, AFAIK, while Berdly & Queen have their Danmaku seen individually & as a pair of Wired Berdly & Queen, Unwired Berdly & Queen is unprecedented, & so, how their Danmaku may be hasn't been seen.As for the danmaku part, I'm still in the dark of how it works, besides the gameplay videos I've looked at.
Do they have something to accelerate their descent, as opposed to just gravity?Where would it comes from? Would it materialise from like thin air or like from them? Anyways, from what I've seen, all their danmaku have specific patterns that they'll be able to sense easily. Safe to say, they won't be overwhelmed by the variety of the danmaku. As for the danmaku themselves, the Riders have three main ways of dealing with them while they close the gap, and they can do these in quick succession, but obviously they aren't raiden level nor do they need to be.
Traditional Dodging, and they can jump and land quickly to boot.
A question: Are their blades durable like them?Deflection via Shadow Moon's TK and their blades due to having NPI
OP stated the fight happens at a dumpster (Some posts later on from some users claim it's a dump, which has me confused.), so I'm not sure what they'd use.And using their environment items to block the danmaku. This is mostly a Shadow Moon thing with his TK, but Black Sun can do so as well.
It may be more difficult in this combination of Unwired Berdly & Queen, which isn't represented in games.Another main thing about their danmaku is that they don't seem to overwhelm as much as I thought, in comparison to the levels of Touhou at least. A first time player of Deltarune fighting Queen and Berdly for the first time does not have experience dealing against their danmaku, but it's possible for them to dodge all of them even without that, and they do not have the senses and perception that these two have.
I recall some debate about Queen flying away.One thing you must know about Shadow Moon's Telekinesis is that it incorporates his Class M LS, which both riders share the same levels of. This means that once someone has been caught in his TK, they will not be able to escape it, since both Queen and Berdly share the same Class K LS. Shadow Moon is the only one having this, since I've deliberately used Base Kamen Rider Black Sun who doesn't have TK in his ability list.
Fair enough. Hope things are going well for you.I'm outside at the moment so I'm a bit slow at my writing, but I will reply to your next wall of text soon.
It is concerning that you are this thankful. I worry how things have been for you.I sincerely thank you for being truly being an relatively fair angel for me.
Understandable. Emotional attachment can be a powerful thing.While I'm biased for the rider duo (then again who wouldn't be for their characters), but I've been trying to take everyone's arguments into account and be as fair as I possibly can, even to the point of having scans for most of the things I say to varying results.
Brevity is not my strong suit, lol.By golly that's a whole lot to answer for, which sucks since I'm on mobile rn. But don't fret, I'm writing down the response now. (I might not be able to give scans till I'm on PC, but I'll do my best )
This has been what I've been saying throughout the thread. Their senses and perception will be immensely instrumental in dealing with the danmaku. Even without this, in their kaijin forms, they've been shown to dodge bullets and both of them scale to New Kaijin Aoi, who did this and this. They also have this in their kaijin forms:To their credit, IIRC about what I've read in this thread, they would apparently know the location & directions of the projectiles via their senses.
They can actually can do all of the above. Not only are all Kamen Riders Acrobatic, they've also shown to have these capabilities. Hence the CRT has to be made. (It's not been completely accepted yet but the majority agrees off-site and I got an admin's agreement. Just need one more mod vote and it will be active, so do with it what you will, can't stop you from disregarding it since it's not on the profile yet).Depending on HOW they dodge, they probably could evade them all.
Flip through the air?
Dive?
Roll?
Side-step?
Given the size of the gaps they'd be dealing with, certain types of evasion are riskier than others, which brings to question what the KR favor.
The ranges involved:
Berdly: Tens of Meters
Queen: Hundreds of Meters with Attacks (As a Darkner, her range should be comparable to the likes of Lancer)
(Another tell she's the bigger threat of her duo, lol.)
Escaping the area where a Danmaku occurs is valuable, but depending on the Travel/Combat Speed present in this match, that may not always be feasible.
Especially if Queen has a far greater AoE as her range suggests. If Berdly were smart, he could try to capitalize on it by using his Danmaku to cut off gaps for escaping.
I also don't know if Berdly is using his Snowgrave moves. Maybe not since he might not be aggressive when paired with his precious Queen.
Similarly, any time spent in the air is risky, if Queen & Berdly are indeed attacking once per second. While gravity is 9.8 m/s, & they may be faster to ascend, IDK if the KR can DESCEND superhumanly fast, as descension through air is done via gravity. However, this is a small window (Even if the KR jumped like, 5 times his own height, he'd still land in 1 second, AFAIK.), & they'd be doing those risky jumps from informed positions about the projectiles location & direction.
Jumping would be travel speed. Assuming Speed Equalized, I don't see why this would be faster than their usual locomotion.
Also, the issue of any time spent descending creates vulnerability, depending on reactions.
Do they have something to accelerate their descent, as opposed to just gravity?
Speed Equalization will be based on Shadow Moon, who is the slowest out of the four, with his movement speed being 13.5m/s and reaction speed heavily upscaling from 48.6894337716 m/s (since this value is from his Kaijin Form). I've heard that the reaction speed is equalised by halfing the slowing and giving the halved amount to all combatants. So with this in mind, I think they can possibly escape areas with high concentration of danmaku, and we're just talking about the dodge part.Also, the reaction time window a player has & that of a combatant when considering combat/attack speed may be different.
This is the time I talk about their stat amps both of them have. I'm just going to copy and paste my paragraph on this: "Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Sun Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is also capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the root of life found in all living things, and manifesting the power of fusion and evolution beyond the lineage) for Black Sun and Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Moon Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the source of life that exists within the bodies of all living things, expressing the power of fusion and evolution that transcends lineage, and rapidly amplifying its power. If a Kingstone is inside, it can increase the output and possibly manifest a unique power. It also improved overall performance and maximum output compared to the Century King Sun Driver) for Shadow Moon respectively. They're at their civilian/kaijin form tabs, at which these abilities carry over to their rider abilities, in addition to having their own abilities and amp. Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg at once by performing "Vital Charge" to increase the strength of his attacks. He could also imbue Century King Black Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Black Sun and Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg to amplify power and activate the finisher. He could also imbue Century King Shadow Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Shadow Moon respectively again.Just because they will be able to dodge does not mean they will be able to do so in a path that advances at the same rate or faster (Speed equalized match.) than the Lightnerds move away; A diagonal is longer than a straight line, airtime matters, & the Lightnerds have little motivation to let their opponents close in.
This part owes an explanation. Black Sun and Shadow Moon usually get particularly violent against non-humans (or humans if they pose enough threat) if and only if their adversaries are strangers, and not people/kaijins they they know personally to some capacity. For humans, they usually go for incap instead though Shadow Moon can also get violent against humans. They do not lose their thinking abilities or any of the sort, since they do whatever they can to end things quickly in any plausible and efficient way they possibly can, whether by incap or killing. I can give further scans for this behaviour if you want further explanation since I won't be doing so now because the series can get particularly gory. So I do have to correct myself after reading the page on bloodlust, they are probably not bloodlusted in character, but they don't hold back against any adversaries they don't have a personal connection. This can be interpreted as bloodlust or not, and that is why I keep saying they are incredibly bloodlusted. They just don't lose their mind or like fight recklessly iirc.So they're murderous & prioritizing killing? How do we know how this affects their tactics?
Also, such bloodlusting, AFAIK, was not mentioned in the OP. Is it part of the Tournament rules.
We actually have a page about Bloodlust, so it may be worth clarifying what kind is present here.
Most of Unwired Berdly's danmakus only originate in one direction or its AOE is admittedly too telegraphed and obvious for them to get hit by. Wired Berdly feels more of a threat than normal Berdly according to the gameplay, but even then it's only by a small margin and he loses out on every other attack other than tornadoes.I mentioned earlier, AFAIK, while Berdly & Queen have their Danmaku seen individually & as a pair of Wired Berdly & Queen, Unwired Berdly & Queen is unprecedented, & so, how their Danmaku may be hasn't been seen.
It'd presumably be like what it is for how they normally are.
While their blades come from their hind legs, their limited body control makes their blades become sturdy and blade-like. As far as I'm aware, they might be very durable thanks to not being damaged at all in the entire series.A question: Are their blades durable like them?
Can the blades be damaged?
I recall some debate about Queen flying away.
As well, as the Lightnerds not needing to move to do an attack.
So a question of dodging while TK holding comes up.
Yes. While he may just be walking slowly here, he can very well be mobile while he uses the TK, especially if he has to spam it a lot. Using his TK doesn't need any effort at all, as seen in this very scan. In his rider form, he should have more powerful TK than in his human form, it will be even less of an effort for him.Also, are they known to move while deflecting with TK?
For this one, OP has to clarify what they mean, since that has me confused too. I just assume they'll be in a dump but if it's near a dumpster somewhere, not all hope is lost.OP stated the fight happens at a dumpster (Some posts later on from some users claim it's a dump, which has me confused.), so I'm not sure what they'd use.
I'm also unsure if projectiles would help in a 9-A match, especially since some of the attacks are tornados, energy, & acid.
Since their projectiles are around the size of a SOUL (regardless of bigger or smaller), this can be mitigated by non-dodging methods of evasion should they get to a point where dodging isn't as favourable, but by the attack variety, I'm sure they'll be able to pull it off. It may not be comparable, but they've dodged bullets in their kaijin forms. So in their rider forms, they should have more than what it takes to overcome the countless danmaku coming at them. After all, it isn't Touhou Project levels.Also, the KR will be much bigger than a 37.37 cm SOUL.
While the riders don't have this, they have experience in dodging in enclosed spaces. In open areas, it's even better for them (they have experience here too, dw) since they get a huge space to go through the danmaku without getting hit.Also, a player has a full view helping them, unlike someone who might be in person. The KR have something analogous to that with their senses, but how it is with them dodging in 3D space as opposed to on a 2D bullet board may change things.
Fair enough. Hope things are going well for you.
I will admit, it is not easy standing my ground, and this thread has gone to four pages and the vote is still in a stalemate with 7-7-3. Just know that it's a total breath of fresh air having you join the debate, to be honest.It is concerning that you are this thankful. I worry how things have been for you.
You basically answered yourself at this question via the additional Enhanced Senses (The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense). I think Extrasensory Perception will help too, and just like the enhanced senses, it's in your very question above it. Extrasensory Perception (Alarm Points are extra sensory organs that enable him to identify events that the naked eye cannot detect, such as presence hiding in shadows and murderous intent, as well as approaching dangers).I vaguely recall something about these senses giving the ability to detect the direction or point of origin of things in the sensory range? If this can be clarified, it may be valuable.
Their senses should at least tell them information on what the kind of projectile is, so they don't exactly need to be hit to know they need to dodge.5. AFAIK, they do not initially know how powerful relative to them Queen & Berdly are, prior to taking a hit; If they take a hit early on in the match, it will deal significant damage. They'll likely know they need to dodge afterwards, however.
iirc Queen creates her barriers after her acid attack (at which Shadow Moon will inevitably contribute in its formation due to blowing them back to her). And since her barrier only focuses on the front, it is susceptible to TK. Knowing how her barrier is formed, SM will not let it happen again, by knocking her cup off or spinning her chair then TKing it.8. In the event they do go for Queen first (I'd assume they understand she creates the barrier, she flies, so better to take her out before her range becomes an issue, & they could probably note Berdly is weaker.), such as by approach, telekinesis, I've read arguments the Lightnerds do not need to move to attack. I do not know how much the KR would move while using Telekinesis, but they might be surprised or alarmed into ceasing it if she attacks during it. Similarly, Berdly is... very loyal to Queen. Despite his ego, I'd assume if she started being TK choked, he'd definitely target the attacker.
There is the more pressing matter that Shadow Moon can TK her chair if he gets into range, robbing her of her mobile vehicle and possibly getting him a good shield for the danmaku.9. There is the issue of Queen flying out of range in her chair.