Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 7: Kamen Rider Shadow Moon and Kamen Rider Black Sun VS Berdly and The Queen (8-7-2)

[IxaSaga2]

This fight giving me 01/Vulcan flashbacks. Feel like TK is more of a threat here. Assuming the KRs can dodge a decent number of projectiles but not all, that also assumes Shadow Moon isn't going to retaliate with TK almost immediately. In a couple of instances, Shadow Moon have started with TK immediately. Dragging Queen in range of both Shadow Moon and Black Sun (which also puts her in range of her own danmaku) would be an easy task. Or just crushing her neck, nearly 50x LS diff. Voting the KRs, also for reasons above.

(Not sure if this has been brought up, but when I see her fight, she always starts off with her least threatening and easily dodged attacks before shes brings out the harder to dodge ones)

 

[Shadowslash125]

We have gone to 5 pages, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[DrGreyman]

queen and berdly scale to 300 while the riders are 50mj
it won't take many hits for them to die
also if they need to move closer to tk, what's stopping queen from just
backing up
with equalized speed

and either way both sides already have 7 votes

 

[Shadowslash125]

8-7-2 actually.
You forgot IxaSaga's vote.

backing up
with equalized speed

There is a thing called a stat amp.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Don't they start in a dumpster? Confused about the setting.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yea we're waiting for OP's clarification.

If it is here, then this is going to be so weird.
I just assumed it was a dump cuz it's that weird.

 

[DrGreyman]

i think it's a reference to spamton?
maybe?

 

[Shadowslash125]

i think it's a reference to spamton?
maybe?

If so, this will change everything.
This battle will essentially take place in a city of all places. And with cities, it will have buildings to jump to, alleyways to scurry away to reposition, and walls to manoeuvre through to avoid danmaku, among other things.
This will mean that their jump height is going to be instrumental here. It's not going to take them more than 2 seconds to jump on the buildings and catch Queen with TK. Depending on the buildings and the things on top of them, there's going to be at least something to duck into for cover against the danmaku. Since they're also not in sight of each other, chances are that Black Sun and Shadow Moon are going to find them first due to their potent senses, thus catching both of them off guard. None of them can sense them coming right at them while in contrast, the rider duo can sense any sort of sneak attacks and all that good stuff. The TK is the first thing they'll be getting and it'll all be too late for the Deltarune Duo.

In case they get found out, the walls around the buildings are going to help immensely in weaving in and out of their danmaku and with their jumps, they'll be hopping from one building to some other place and many more. They are grasshoppers after all. The rest of the arguments I've made throughout the thread will still hold up.

One big thing I overlooked. The stats say Jumping Power, not jump height. This could mean that regardless of their direction of jump, they can cross 33 meters. Holy moly.

 

[Imaginym]

Ok, certain questions have already been answered so I'll go ahead and answer the ones that haven't been answered yet. Answer answer.

You basically answered yourself at this question via the additional Enhanced Senses (The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense). I think Extrasensory Perception will help too, and just like the enhanced senses, it's in your very question above it. Extrasensory Perception (Alarm Points are extra sensory organs that enable him to identify events that the naked eye cannot detect, such as presence hiding in shadows and murderous intent, as well as approaching dangers).

Their senses should at least tell them information on what the kind of projectile is, so they don't exactly need to be hit to know they need to dodge.

If I'm reading correctly, nothing in the senses' justifications tells them the power level of incoming attacks, & person-sized tornados aren't even always 9-A, even by total energy, let alone after surface area. (Not that I expect the KR to be physics nerds.)
I think that, to the KR, a pair of "monsters"' opening attacks being several projectiles probably wouldn't suggest "This will be severely damaging if it hits us, possibly fatal" a few times.

Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Should be comparable to other Kaijins, who can sense Black Sun's presence over great distances)

Oh, I'm pasting these down again so that it's easier to read my point and the ability itself.

Noted. Thank you!

iirc Queen creates her barriers after her acid attack (at which Shadow Moon will inevitably contribute in its formation due to blowing them back to her). And since her barrier only focuses on the front, it is susceptible to TK. Knowing how her barrier is formed, SM will not let it happen again, by knocking her cup off or spinning her chair then TKing it.

I recall there being argument earlier in the thread that Queen has many cups.
Presuming he tries the cup first (It'd be less effort than the chair, & it's what she'd appear to be wielding.), couldn't she just spawn another?

Shadow Moon can use any one of the two he pulled with TK to be used as his danmaku shield, making them get hit by their own damage instead of Shadow Moon or Black Sun. This can completely stop danmaku which originates literally from them and not around the riders according to how they're portrayed by the gameplay (like Unwired Berdly's axe one and Queen's acid cup and wires).

Is that IC for him? I don't recall much arguing in this thread that he'd do that.

But if he did do that it'd probably backfire via the victim being able to attack without moving, & their Danmaku not only being more comparable to them than a KR, but also being something they resist.
Pulling them close enough to be a shield means likely being at point blank range for the next attack from the victim.

Is it in-character? Because if he doesn't know the power levels, or that they can attack while immobilized, this would trade horribly against the KR's.

There is the more pressing matter that Shadow Moon can TK her chair if he gets into range, robbing her of her mobile vehicle and possibly getting him a good shield for the danmaku.

But wouldn't he go for the monster target he's so hateful of first?
(& this assumes there isn't an opportunity for Queen to move back or attack, if/when she sees either the projectiles or the shield being TK'd in the KR's advance.

8-7-2 actually.
You forgot IxaSaga's vote.

There is a thing called a stat amp.

If they are trying to advance, dodge, deflect & get into range to initiate TK, they don't have many spare opportunities they could spend on stat amping, I think.

 

[Catbowtie]

Bro, I'm not even going to lie. I mentally checked out of reading the arguments after the 5th paragraph

 

[Imaginym]

Bro, I'm not even going to lie. I mentally checked out of reading the arguments after the 5th paragraph

Understandable. I'm not unfamiliar with becoming exasperated with debates myself, I'd say.

 

[Catbowtie]

What's the consensus on the arguments so far?

 

[Shadowslash125]

If I'm reading correctly, nothing in the senses' justifications tells them the power level of incoming attacks, & person-sized tornados aren't even always 9-A, even by total energy, let alone after surface area. (Not that I expect the KR to be physics nerds.)
I think that, to the KR, a pair of "monsters"' opening attacks being several projectiles probably wouldn't suggest "This will be severely damaging if it hits us, possibly fatal" a few times.

What I'm saying is that they will get information on what projectiles are used, not their power level obviously. With that, it should be enough for them to differentiate between which projectiles to dodge and which to deflect. I mean like who in their right mind would not dodge against acid projectiles (unless it's Shadow Moon, who has TK to deal with those).

Also nothing in Queen nor Berdly's profile really shows that their projectiles go over 9-A in power. And even then, wouldn't that be restricted? Noelle doesn't get to use her 8-C Snowgrave attack on this tourney, so I don't see any reason why they'll be able to do the same.

I recall there being argument earlier in the thread that Queen has many cups.
Presuming he tries the cup first (It'd be less effort than the chair, & it's what she'd appear to be wielding.), couldn't she just spawn another?

I also recall that Queen takes a while to replace her cups first, then takes another while using her acid danmaku to attack the enemy, before taking that acid to refill and recreate her barrier.
And also, it shouldn't need any extra effort for Shadow Moon to TK her chair due to his x50 LS advantage.

Is that IC for him? I don't recall much arguing in this thread that he'd do that.

But if he did do that it'd probably backfire via the victim being able to attack without moving, & their Danmaku not only being more comparable to them than a KR, but also being something they resist.
Pulling them close enough to be a shield means likely being at point blank range for the next attack from the victim.

Is it in-character? Because if he doesn't know the power levels, or that they can attack while immobilized, this would trade horribly against the KR's.

While it's not exactly in character for him to pull them in all the time (or use them as shields all the time), he does push his enemies to sources of attacks. He can TK Berdly and throw him against Queen, especially during her acid shield. And Berdly does not resist Queen's acid shield.

Ok ok, I have to ask, where will the danmaku originate from? Many people here have said it's from the surroundings and the gameplay videos tell me they also have directional danmaku that comes from them. From your text, you're insinuating that the danmaku will come from them, which means that the riders can act appropriately according to the situation at hand. The reason I'm bringing up this point is because I've been saying this with the assumption that they're attacking from the surroundings and not from themselves.

Also wouldn't certain danmaku require their items, such as Queen's Acid Chalice and Berdly's Axe Danmaku? Even if they can attack while still being immobilised, they probably won't be able to fire them off due to not having that item to use for that danmaku. Sure Queen can summon more cups, but in her immobilization, she's going to inevitably drop them due to the overwhelming TK.

Ixa has also said that due to the 50x LS Advantage, what's stopping Shadow Moon from crushing his opponents with his TK? Berdly is easy to kill since he can snap his neck with TK, but since Queen is a robot, she's going to get crushed. I've said above that they end things fast, so this is in-character for them.

But wouldn't he go for the monster target he's so hateful of first?
(& this assumes there isn't an opportunity for Queen to move back or attack, if/when she sees either the projectiles or the shield being TK'd in the KR's advance.

I'm under the assumption that Queen will be aware of his TK blocking and deflecting projectiles but she wouldn't know the other uses of his TK (due to no prior knowledge being at play). Also, his TK is actually 'invisible' in the series and IIRC only Black Sun has not only dodged it but also has shown to be able to grab it (we the viewer can see it but the other characters do not actually see the TK). From this, I can probably say that she's not going to think of it as telekinesis, instead thinking of it as something else.

And as I've said, it's not that they hate monsters, they just don't hold back. This does not mean they'll be hyperfocused on the monster target only. They should have the necessary thinking skills to take care of her flying chair first. And both of them have experiences against flying enemies in their series, so there's no stopping them from removing her option of flight almost immediately.

If they are trying to advance, dodge, deflect & get into range to initiate TK, they don't have many spare opportunities they could spend on stat amping, I think.

Reusing the Black Sun grabbing TK scan. Because near the end of the video, Black Sun hits Shadow Moon with an amped attack, at which he does it in just a flash. Their amps can not only pack extra punch, but aren't hindered by taking time to amp themselves either.

What's the consensus on the arguments so far?

The real consensus for me now is to debate with Imaginym, since mostly everyone has gotten fatigued from five pages worth of debates. He's currently the only one still here to debate (due to arriving late).
Unless you want me to pull the wincon stuff, at which I'll do it soon.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I have a feeling that this is going to conclude in an incon and coin flip.

 

[Catbowtie]

Let's just Inconclusive this. I'll go ahead and remove my vote from Driver's because I can't vote in good faith anymore. I voted Drivers because of their TK crushing Queen and Berdley to death, what is the validity of this win condition?

 

[Shadowslash125]

I voted Drivers because of their TK crushing Queen and Berdley to death, what is the validity of this win condition?

It's not only in character due to their way of battle but also their one big wincon due to the huge LS diff.

 

[Catbowtie]

How has this been argued against?

 

[Shadowslash125]

It hasn't exactly been argued against per say, at least not directly. See, the thing is that Shadow Moon's TK range is only several meters, and so they have to close the gap enough to do this. Due to speed equalization, all of them will move at about 13.5m/s probably not counting Queen's chair (I am inclined to assume Queen's flying chair will be equalised because she only moves in battle with the chair). And with the riders having huge jump power of traversing 33ms irrespective of direction, they're going to catch Queen and Berdly before they fly away.

Assuming that we're fighting at a dumpster in a city (since the spamton fight is what's being the reference to this fight), and that they don't have sight of each other, the riders are going to catch them off guard and have Shadow Moon TK crush them.

I'm mostly arguing now for the case they get caught, but it's also possible they can end it quickly should they not get caught (and from the profiles, Queen doesn't seem to have the senses to figure out sneak attacks or first initiative attacks before it's too late).

 

[Catbowtie]

Then my vote is staying on the Riders. The Original Tournament Post does say that they start out of sight from one another.

 

[Imaginym]

It hasn't exactly been argued against per say, at least not directly. See, the thing is that Shadow Moon's TK range is only several meters, and so they have to close the gap enough to do this. Due to speed equalization, all of them will move at about 13.5m/s probably not counting Queen's chair (I am inclined to assume Queen's flying chair will be equalised because she only moves in battle with the chair).

And with the riders having huge jump power of traversing 33ms irrespective of direction, they're going to catch Queen and Berdly before they fly away.

Wouldn't this be affected by Speed Equalization?
Also, they'd be much more vulnerable during any time spent descending unless they can accelerate their descent.

Assuming that we're fighting at a dumpster in a city (since the spamton fight is what's being the reference to this fight), and that they don't have sight of each other, the riders are going to catch them off guard and have Shadow Moon TK crush them.

From SBA:

Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other.

Given that, they may not be caught off guard.


Personally, given the matter of skill & senses, & the massive AP/Durability gap present at the start of the match (As discussed earlier.), I'm tentatively willing to side with recent votes saying to vote Inconclusive.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other.

Given that, they may not be caught off guard.

To be fair, what I mean by caught off guard is that given the situation that they're not within each other's line of sight but knowing the direction their opponents start in, wouldn't that still give the riders some initiative to cross the gap faster than them being caught in Queen and Berdly's line of sight? Suffice to say, they'll be seeing Queen and Berdly before they see them, which gives them a window of time to act before the latter gamer duo can do anything.

Also since OP has declared that they're out of sight of each other but then SBA states they know the direction their opponents start in, that sounds a bit confusing for me tbh.

 

[Catbowtie]

Also since OP has declared that they're out of sight of each other but then SBA states they know the direction their opponents start in, that sounds a bit confusing for me tbh.

I figured it's always was like "Character Alice knows that Character Bob is North, but not exactly how far North he is"

 

[Shadowslash125]

I had been assuming that they'll be fighting at a dump and not a dumpster. So yea from the points I made, and the condition of the fight, it's going to be easier for the rider duo to deal with the deltarune duo now.