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Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 7: Kamen Rider Shadow Moon and Kamen Rider Black Sun VS Berdly and The Queen (8-7-2)

Shadowslash125 said:
I mean to be fair, TK was used against singular opponents (there was an instance where he had to fight multiple Kaijins but his TK completely overwhelmed them enough to be unable to fight back against him), and because of the overwhelming part, they never really got the chance to fight and attack back during the TK part. The only person to do was Black Sun, and that's because he had the NPI to do so by pulling the TK like a rope to him. While we haven't seen him dodge in his TK, it won't be quite a stretch to say he can since he can just move his hand that's TKing as he dodges.
Click to expand...
This is rather flawed logic because you're working with a hypothetical. We have only seen him use that one at a time. We haven't seen what happens when he uses it while in motion, only when he's standing still.
Shadowslash125 said:
How else are they supposed to close the gap, especially when Queen's going to fly out of range of them? Are they supposed to stand there and just punch the air as they become pin cushions for their danmaku? I admit that they usually fight using CQC, but they're not above trying to throw stuff like their swords at people or using TK to close gaps, doing whatever it takes to win (via SBA). You said Queen's going to fly out of range from them, then the only logical thing for CQC guys to do is to close the gap to initiate CQC in any plausible and possible way available for them. Taking by what you've said, they'll be seeing Queen fly with the chair and would go "She's flying, we need to catch her. She's flying with that chair, we have to destroy it not to have her fly anymore". They're not morons and they should be skilled enough to notice.
Click to expand...
Not at first, no. I imagine Queen would try and pelt them with projectiles first. And in response to that, based on what we see, the riders would try and close the gap and hit them with CQC. Especially since as you said, they're bloodlusted and will be just focused on trying to beat the ever-loving crap out of them, with TK being used like it is with most instances. To just pull and throw away in some direction, although while that happens, the projectiles will still be pelting them and Berdly will still be active. At the first sign of telekinetic power, even against her projectiles, Queen would likely try to fly up to get in some cheese shots. When she's faced with a bad odd, she usually does know when to retreat and gain a greater advantage later, which is exactly what she'd be doing here.
Shadowslash125 said:
Another thing I will admit, they have not dealt with danmaku. The only thing closest to danmaku is against multiple gun users Kaijin Shadow Moon and Mantis Kaijin had to outmanoeuvre to escape. Kaijin Form Black Sun and Shadow Moon scales to Mantis Kaijin, who has shown to dodge bullets, with Kaijin Form Shadow Moon having a scene of his own where he does this, though a few bullets bounced off him. This is Kamen Rider Black Sun and Kamen Rider Shadow Moon fighting them, not their kaijin forms, meaning they'll be more than likely to be able to effortlessly dodge at this point. Their Kaijin Forms already had enhanced senses and with their rider forms, these enhanced senses carry over in addition to having additional enhanced senses AND extrasensory perception. While sure they're no Spider-Man, neither is Kris nor the player, and they still can dodge the danmaku effortlessly assuming we're having a composite player of the player is extremely skilled. Having enhanced senses and extrasensory perception will definitely help them on this front. That doesn't mean I won't count the possibility that they're hit, at which they have their terrifying tenacious stamina, and their amps which will at least soften the blow even if it's just a bit and their damage reduction.
Click to expand...
Kris is good at dodging the Danmaku because they are frequently met with Danmaku attacks and know how to deal with them. Again, what you're arguing for is under the assumption that they will be dodging one thing at a time. They will not be. Stamina will not be that useful here and the gap is far too wide for damage reduction and their amps to make much of a difference, especially since she is repeatedly attacking them with dozens more of these attacks from different angles over and over again. They will be overwhelmed.
Shadowslash125 said:
Again as stated before by me, Shadow Moon fights SINGULAR opponents, that's why he only uses one hand and one at a time, even then it was enough to overwhelm several people to the point it became a 1v1. There's no reason why someone with telekinesis can't use both arms to utilize it. And since by the time they've got into CQC range and are grappling both of them (disregarding TK for the moment), they'll probably use the Deltarune Duo's bodies to block the oncoming danmaku coming for them, and it's even easier for Shadow Moon with his TK to bring her off her chair to use her as a body shield. Black Sun against Berdly won't be too much of a problem either, assuming Shadow Moon hasn't ended him yet or used him to whack Queen to disordinate her or Queen to whack Berdly.
Click to expand...
That's assuming they'll even get close and again -- he would only be able to use this against like two projectiles at a time and we have only seen him do this rather slowly like he's Darth Vader choking out a rebel. Not while a dozen other issues are attacking him as well. You are correct. He only fights SINGULAR opponents, and has no experience dealing with like a hundred other attacks causing more issues for him.. And Black Sun would only be able to do this for one projectile at a time too. To put this into perspective, there are multiple angles from which Shadowmoon can be hit, and that's more than both he and Black Sun can counter in the same timeframe. One of those shots is going to hit, and they are going to repeat.
Shadowslash125 said:
There's one thing I failed to say about Shadow Moon's Telekinesis. Way into my first reply and even here, they have stat amps that can at least help them out. Turns out I overlooked the fact that Shadow Moon can amp his telekinesis for more power and range (not the several meters thing, the width I mean), meaning it's entirely plausible for him to grab Queen and Berdly with just one hand.
Click to expand...
Excuse me, where on the profile does it say that???

And even then, he needs to first grab the projectiles coming at him first, while another set of projectiles are coming at him, then another set of projectiles are spawning in a second later, and then this repeats like 7 more times and yeah, this isn't holding water.
 
DimeUhDozen said:
Not at first, no. I imagine Queen would try and pelt them with projectiles first. And in response to that, based on what we see, the riders would try and close the gap and hit them with CQC. Especially since as you said, they're bloodlusted and will be just focused on trying to beat the ever-loving crap out of them, with TK being used like it is with most instances. To just pull and throw away in some direction, although while that happens, the projectiles will still be pelting them and Berdly will still be active. At the first sign of telekinetic power, even against her projectiles, Queen would likely try to fly up to get in some cheese shots. When she's faced with a bad odd, she usually does know when to retreat and gain a greater advantage later, which is exactly what she'd be doing here.
Click to expand...
Due to Speed Equalisation, everyone's movement speed (barring vehicles) is scaled to 13.5m/s thanks to Shadow Moon being the slowest out of the two. Since the starting distance is 30m away and they'll be sensing each other quite quickly, it only takes about roughly two seconds for the rider duo to be in range for TK pulling into their range (without vehicles). Sure, the Deltarune Duo won't be sitting ducks either and probably moving away from them and while I don't doubt she might be able to fly up upon seeing his TK shenanigans in those two seconds, that's where their jump height comes in to make it easier for them to give chase, since she probably won't be that far up in just two seconds. Berdly is unfortunately going to be easy pickings for Shadow Moon (and honestly Black Sun if he gets in range too), and he should more often than not be in range of his TK. Having Berdly would be a liability from her side this time, as trying to take him back with her wires will only result in Shadow Moon's TK grabbing a hold of her wires instead. Regardless of that outcome, Berdly should be returning to her side anyways, either by her pulling him up or Shadow Moon throwing him right at her to knock her down.

DimeUhDozen said:
Kris is good at dodging the Danmaku because they are frequently met with Danmaku attacks and know how to deal with them. Again, what you're arguing for is under the assumption that they will be dodging one thing at a time. They will not be. Stamina will not be that useful here and the gap is far too wide for damage reduction and their amps to make much of a difference, especially since she is repeatedly attacking them with dozens more of these attacks from different angles over and over again. They will be overwhelmed.
Click to expand...
How good they are is still dependant on the player doing the dodging. The player (I assume will be an expert no damage run kind of player) can already dodge all of them well, but they're using normal instincts and senses to do so (via visuals I presume) Not only are the Rider Duo's senses already amplified thrice, but their extrasensory perception also exists, which will obviously make dodging way easier. And it's not just dodging they'll be doing either. Ignoring TK, which I've yapped about for three pages already, they have NPI and they'll be able to deflect the danmaku with their blades. Then again, their level of danmaku isn't Sans level so yes it will be way easier to deal with them. Looking at the gameplay videos (which only have fights in bullet hell form so I can't even know how they fight outside of that), their damaku is evenly spread to allow for timed dodging and all the ways a player can masterfully weave through without taking any damage whatsoever. While they may not have experience against this kind of attacks, their senses will help them get the hang of it. I forgot where their danmaku would originate so I do need a fresh reminder of it. Unless that danmaku is Sans or Dissidia Ultimecia level, they can avoid actually getting hit.

DimeUhDozen said:
That's assuming they'll even get close and again -- he would only be able to use this against like two projectiles at a time and we have only seen him do this rather slowly like he's Darth Vader choking out a rebel. Not while a dozen other issues are attacking him as well. You are correct. He only fights SINGULAR opponents, and has no experience dealing with like a hundred other attacks causing more issues for him.. And Black Sun would only be able to do this for one projectile at a time too. To put this into perspective, there are multiple angles from which Shadowmoon can be hit, and that's more than both he and Black Sun can counter in the same timeframe. One of those shots is going to hit, and they are going to repeat.
Click to expand...
Not no experience, it's low experience. Most of the points here I've addressed above so uhh that's that. Again, by the time he has gotten TK, his fights aren't as bloodlusted as early ones anymore, and mostly he's fighting for superiority and ego boosting. Even then, there has been situations where he pulls fast TKs to push them away from him. Blades at least give them extended melee range to be able to hit the projectiles in addition to their dodges. While this may not be as game-changing as the other points, they do have healing on their side. Heat Heavens just need to be bitten once to gain healing, and one block of them can be bitten a certain amount of times. Paired with the fact that Shadow Moon has like a dozen of them, they will stay in the battlefield longer.

DimeUhDozen said:
Excuse me, where on the profile does it say that???

And even then, he needs to first grab the projectiles coming at him first, while another set of projectiles are coming at him, then another set of projectiles are spawning in a second later, and then this repeats like 7 more times and yeah, this isn't holding water.
Click to expand...
Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Sun Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is also capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the root of life found in all living things, and manifesting the power of fusion and evolution beyond the lineage) for Black Sun and Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Moon Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the source of life that exists within the bodies of all living things, expressing the power of fusion and evolution that transcends lineage, and rapidly amplifying its power. If a Kingstone is inside, it can increase the output and possibly manifest a unique power. It also improved overall performance and maximum output compared to the Century King Sun Driver) for Shadow Moon respectively. They're at their civilian/kaijin form tabs, at which these abilities carry over to their rider abilities, in addition to having their own abilities and amp. Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg at once by performing "Vital Charge" to increase the strength of his attacks. He could also imbue Century King Black Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Black Sun and Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg to amplify power and activate the finisher. He could also imbue Century King Shadow Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Shadow Moon respectively again.

From this, we can see that Shadow Moon's amps are more powerful than that of Black Sun's. In this matchup, the Kingstone amp will also be present in Black Sun due to being his standard equipment as well. And don't worry, their forcefields are not for defence, they're only for gathering even more power.

The amps themselves are unquantifiable, meaning we do not know the upper limits of how much they can amp. But from what we know, they're strong enough to make a difference in this fight. The amps can happen anytime at any speed, meaning they can already start amping themselves to cross the gap faster and even jump higher to catch Queen and prevent her from going out of range. Their attacks and grabs also benefit from this to the point that it may even be possible for Shadow Moon to crush them with TK. These amps are also the reason why I consider their stamina to be very important and underappreciated in this match, as it also raises their durability. As some people are saying, they can still keep fighting even with their arms or legs severed and a fking sword through their abdomens and just about any other injuries they have. Should their attacks actually hit the duo, without amps it'd be a two-shot at worst. With amps they can at least endure more before finally falling.

This is their amps in action, more specifically the power aspect of it. Note that Shadow Moon's TK push became even bigger and it was more than enough to send Black Sun flying, who was originally able to withstand the normal one. And Black Sun's kick itself sends Shadow Moon flying. Even when he was being sent flying to the other side of that room, he could still use his TK fast enough before being kicked (or presumably while he got kicked, the clip kinda doesn't really make it clear). Despite being not as powerful as his other counterpart, Black Sun's amps are still more than enough to defeat Shadow Moon. Again, note that this amp didn't take at all to do, and it has this much power and force.
 
Shadowslash125 said:
Due to Speed Equalisation, everyone's movement speed (barring vehicles) is scaled to 13.5m/s thanks to Shadow Moon being the slowest out of the two. Since the starting distance is 30m away and they'll be sensing each other quite quickly, it only takes about roughly two seconds for the rider duo to be in range for TK pulling into their range (without vehicles). Sure, the Deltarune Duo won't be sitting ducks either and probably moving away from them and while I don't doubt she might be able to fly up upon seeing his TK shenanigans in those two seconds, that's where their jump height comes in to make it easier for them to give chase, since she probably won't be that far up in just two seconds. Berdly is unfortunately going to be easy pickings for Shadow Moon (and honestly Black Sun if he gets in range too), and he should more often than not be in range of his TK. Having Berdly would be a liability from her side this time, as trying to take him back with her wires will only result in Shadow Moon's TK grabbing a hold of her wires instead. Regardless of that outcome, Berdly should be returning to her side anyways, either by her pulling him up or Shadow Moon throwing him right at her to knock her down.
Click to expand...
You do realize that they also won't be able to dodge once they're in the air and will most likely be hit by the attacks due to moving in just one direction from the jump right?
Shadowslash125 said:
How good they are is still dependant on the player doing the dodging. The player (I assume will be an expert no damage run kind of player) can already dodge all of them well, but they're using normal instincts and senses to do so (via visuals I presume) Not only are the Rider Duo's senses already amplified thrice, but their extrasensory perception also exists, which will obviously make dodging way easier. And it's not just dodging they'll be doing either. Ignoring TK, which I've yapped about for three pages already, they have NPI and they'll be able to deflect the danmaku with their blades. Then again, their level of danmaku isn't Sans level so yes it will be way easier to deal with them. Looking at the gameplay videos (which only have fights in bullet hell form so I can't even know how they fight outside of that), their damaku is evenly spread to allow for timed dodging and all the ways a player can masterfully weave through without taking any damage whatsoever. While they may not have experience against this kind of attacks, their senses will help them get the hang of it. I forgot where their danmaku would originate so I do need a fresh reminder of it. Unless that danmaku is Sans or Dissidia Ultimecia level, they can avoid actually getting hit.
Click to expand...
The player has a top-down view of everything that is about to hit Kris, and has the added benefit of being able to memorize attacks if they fail the first time. They have an open field vision of everything in the Battle Box including things that are behind the heart, which, isn't that exactly the kind of Enhanced Senses that the Riders have? Extrasensory Perception won't help since Queen isn't trying to be stealthy here. It feels like you're vastly over-exaggerating their dodging ability again and not actually addressing their way of handling the quantity of projectiles being thrown at them. They are not as small as a SOUL, and not meant for the kind of dodging that the game makes Kris able to accomplish.
Shadowslash125 said:
Not no experience, it's low experience.
Click to expand...
If you can't give any examples of experience with those kinds of attacks besides simple bullet dodging, it is no experience.
Shadowslash125 said:
Most of the points here I've addressed above so uhh that's that. Again, by the time he has gotten TK, his fights aren't as bloodlusted as early ones anymore, and mostly he's fighting for superiority and ego boosting. Even then, there has been situations where he pulls fast TKs to push them away from him.
Click to expand...
Then show them.
Shadowslash125 said:
Blades at least give them extended melee range to be able to hit the projectiles in addition to their dodges.
Click to expand...
Already addressed this. He can only do this one at a time to the projectiles, maybe two.
Shadowslash125 said:
While this may not be as game-changing as the other points, they do have healing on their side. Heat Heavens just need to be bitten once to gain healing, and one block of them can be bitten a certain amount of times. Paired with the fact that Shadow Moon has like a dozen of them, they will stay in the battlefield longer.
Click to expand...
By the time they pull out the Heal Heavens, they'll already be bombarded by a swarm of attacks. Won't help.
Shadowslash125 said:
Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Sun Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is also capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the root of life found in all living things, and manifesting the power of fusion and evolution beyond the lineage) for Black Sun and Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Moon Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the source of life that exists within the bodies of all living things, expressing the power of fusion and evolution that transcends lineage, and rapidly amplifying its power. If a Kingstone is inside, it can increase the output and possibly manifest a unique power. It also improved overall performance and maximum output compared to the Century King Sun Driver) for Shadow Moon respectively. They're at their civilian/kaijin form tabs, at which these abilities carry over to their rider abilities, in addition to having their own abilities and amp. Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg at once by performing "Vital Charge" to increase the strength of his attacks. He could also imbue Century King Black Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Black Sun and Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg to amplify power and activate the finisher. He could also imbue Century King Shadow Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Shadow Moon respectively again.

From this, we can see that Shadow Moon's amps are more powerful than that of Black Sun's. In this matchup, the Kingstone amp will also be present in Black Sun due to being his standard equipment as well. And don't worry, their forcefields are not for defence, they're only for gathering even more power.

The amps themselves are unquantifiable, meaning we do not know the upper limits of how much they can amp. But from what we know, they're strong enough to make a difference in this fight
Click to expand...
If they're unquantifiable, then we can't say they can make a difference in the fight. You can't just say vague statements like that and expect the argument to hold water.
Shadowslash125 said:
. The amps can happen anytime at any speed, meaning they can already start amping themselves to cross the gap faster and even jump higher to catch Queen and prevent her from going out of range.
Click to expand...
They'll have to do this while not getting hit by the onslaught of attacks coming their way which can knock them back quite easily due to the AP gap.
Shadowslash125 said:
Their attacks and grabs also benefit from this to the point that it may even be possible for Shadow Moon to crush them with TK. These amps are also the reason why I consider their stamina to be very important and underappreciated in this match, as it also raises their durability. As some people are saying, they can still keep fighting even with their arms or legs severed and a fking sword through their abdomens and just about any other injuries they have. Should their attacks actually hit the duo, without amps it'd be a two-shot at worst. With amps they can at least endure more before finally falling.
Click to expand...
Queen and Berdly won't just stop their attacks once one of them hits. If they do, it's going to be EXTREMELY bad for the Riders. And it won't just not affect them too, it'll severely harm their dodging skills as well. Whoever does get hit, or if they both get hit at the same time, they'll be open for an attack for at least a little bit, and that won't be good against two Danmaku-based opponents.
Shadowslash125 said:
This is their amps in action, more specifically the power aspect of it.
Click to expand...
You know what's interesting about that scene? When that guy kicked him, he didn't dodge like he was the Flash. He just stood there and prepared his telekinesis which... it was almost like... it left him completely open to attack. And that was just from a single frontwards facing kick. I'm sorry, I just can't in my right mind believe that someone who couldn't even dodge that would be able to deal with Queen and Berdly's projectiles.
Shadowslash125 said:
Note that Shadow Moon's TK push became even bigger and it was more than enough to send Black Sun flying, who was originally able to withstand the normal one.
And Black Sun's kick itself sends Shadow Moon flying. Even when he was being sent flying to the other side of that room, he could still use his TK fast enough before being kicked (or presumably while he got kicked, the clip kinda doesn't really make it clear).
Click to expand...
No he didn't??? He just held his hand out and then got kicked, further evidencing that he can absolutely get his shit rocked while he's using telekinesis.
Shadowslash125 said:
Despite being not as powerful as his other counterpart, Black Sun's amps are still more than enough to defeat Shadow Moon. Again, note that this amp didn't take at all to do, and it has this much power and force.
Click to expand...
I'm still not convinced that this has enough power to close the gap. Queen and Berdly take this handily. That's my final judgement on this.
 
Wait wait wait now hold on just a second.
You're telling me someone like Webby Vanderquack has no problem dodging Queen's danmaku but two bugmen with good senses is where everyone draws the line???
Wow.
 
Shadowslash125 said:
Wait wait wait now hold on just a second.
You're telling me someone like Webby Vanderquack has no problem dodging Queen's danmaku but two bugmen with good senses is where everyone draws the line???
Wow.
Click to expand...
That matchup had like the worst reasonings for winning ever and no Deltarune supporters were there in the debate. I wouldn’t exactly want to use that as a measurement for how this fight would go.
 
DimeUhDozen said:
That matchup had like the worst reasonings for winning ever and no Deltarune supporters were there in the debate. I wouldn’t exactly want to use that as a measurement for how this fight would go.
Click to expand...
Oh, thank fk. I can't imagine these guys losing to base queen then having a duck beat a ******* empowered queen like that.
DimeUhDozen said:
You do realize that they also won't be able to dodge once they're in the air and will most likely be hit by the attacks due to moving in just one direction from the jump right?
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I mean that's what the swords are for. Deflecting action just like Sekiro. And in the case of Shadow Moon... Say it with me now, Telekinesis. By then, he should have at least one of them to use as a shield for blocking the danmaku. Fk it, he can even grab the chair to use as a fking shield too.

DimeUhDozen said:
The player has a top-down view of everything that is about to hit Kris, and has the added benefit of being able to memorize attacks if they fail the first time. They have an open field vision of everything in the Battle Box including things that are behind the heart, which, isn't that exactly the kind of Enhanced Senses that the Riders have? Extrasensory Perception won't help since Queen isn't trying to be stealthy here. It feels like you're vastly over-exaggerating their dodging ability again and not actually addressing their way of handling the quantity of projectiles being thrown at them. They are not as small as a SOUL, and not meant for the kind of dodging that the game makes Kris able to accomplish.
Click to expand...
The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense, which should act similarly to that. And their Extrasensory Perception helps them identify approaching dangers too, not just sneak attacks and all that stealth stuff. Both of them have this and probably shouldn't have a problem identifying where the attacks are coming and going, even if it's from behind. We still have to consider the fire rate and the pattern the danmaku is going to come by. Surely it's not going to be blitz-levels of fast considering the speed equalization. And the patterns will be easily known from their senses. The gameplay videos shows me the danmakus have just the amount of space required to dodge through it. Again, if that's not how the danmakus are going to be fired, then I don't know how it's even going to work outside of gameplay. As for the quantity (I'm still using gameplay here), they don't feel enough to actually overwhelm the two. Even with Berdly also firing at them, it's not exactly going to be hard dodging through them, and Shadow Moon's TK can just blow them away if things do actually get dicey. At the very least his TK originates from his hand, so he should be able to protect himself from all directions. Black Sun would just have to keep swinging as much as he can while being protected by him. I would've agreed and already surrendered by now if their danmaku are Touhou Project levels of overwhelming but from what is available to me, that's really not going to be enough, even with the lack of experience.

DimeUhDozen said:
Then show them.
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Two-Three seconds before the end of the clip. And this. While sure the latter one was done in a non-combat situation, he still can TK this fast.

DimeUhDozen said:
If they're unquantifiable, then we can't say they can make a difference in the fight. You can't just say vague statements like that and expect the argument to hold water.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but the amp still does exist.

DimeUhDozen said:
You know what's interesting about that scene? When that guy kicked him, he didn't dodge like he was the Flash. He just stood there and prepared his telekinesis which... it was almost like... it left him completely open to attack. And that was just from a single frontwards facing kick. I'm sorry, I just can't in my right mind believe that someone who couldn't even dodge that would be able to deal with Queen and Berdly's projectiles.
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As it turns out, he was using the telekinesis in another way. You have to have a dramatic fight for the series finale so let's make the fight like this! To be fair, this guy just popped a flying kick at the last moment, which Queen and Berdly's attacks would be there by the start. At the very least that should have him be like "yea I can't fking stay like that" and constantly have to be on the move.

DimeUhDozen said:
No he didn't??? He just held his hand out and then got kicked, further evidencing that he can absolutely get his shit rocked while he's using telekinesis.
Click to expand...
To further elaborate on my comment on it, a few seconds prior to Shadow Moon amping his TK, they had a sword fight at which his sword got knocked from his hands. While he was standing there to take a kick to the face, it's not without using his TK to stab his best friend. In that clip I showed you, Shadow Moon lacked the sword in his hands, then that sword magically appeared stabbed into Black Sun. This fight was more than just killing the other person; it was to finally settle their long ass dispute so it's only natural they're bloody prolonging the fight. Hence the personal stakes.

And they won't be doing this nor having the liberty to do so.

DimeUhDozen said:
I'm still not convinced that this has enough power to close the gap.
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Yea, it's just worth noting. It definitely won't close the gap.

I have to admit chief, while I voted for the Rider Duo even with their AP gap, as the Rider Supporters said, they're only going to take this extreme diff. They do have their wincons, but the AP gap is what's holding them back this match, and probably any subsequent matches. While they have the dodging capabilities, one hit is going to cripple them hard, and they're outranged. Debating like this, going in circles, holy moly. This has got to be the hardest matchup I've ever faced, and the odds are stacked against the duo I've chosen. Trying to find scans and stuff and just about anything to make this more decisive to the point I'm clutching at straws speaks volumes.

I think I'm at my limit now, I need to rest up. Good debating.
 
I think I'm gonna vote incon. I haven't read everything fully but both arguments seem pretty even.
 
Shadowslash125 said:
Wouldn't coin flip be for incons?
Cuz there's only one incon in comparison to 5 votes to Deltarune duo and 4 for Rider Duo
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  • When the thread reaches a valid vote count, a grace period of 24 hours will be acknowledged, starting when the final vote that resulted in valid vote count was posted. After this time period, the match can be added, with proper format, to the respective characters' pages, or, for Tier 2 characters or otherwise locked profiles, requested in the Versus Addition Request Thread.
    • Anybody, including the creator of the thread, gets exactly one vote.
    • For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favor of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes. Some examples:
      • A final vote tally of 6-0 will be considered invalid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-0 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-5 will be considered invalid.
        • If the final verdict did not have a minimum difference of three votes a grace period for inconclusive of 72 hours will begin. The other rules for inconclusive will still apply; grace for inconclusive will only be added if both parties had a notable debate.
There has to be a minimum difference three votes in order for a side to claim victory.
 
At least I learnt how to debate better, so I see this as a plus!
Btw you will also be seeing me in non-rider debates too but I'm occupied with rider stuff
Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol
Anyways, the votes are 5-6-1.
 
Yea I'd say that Kuuga and Agito are way more versatile than BS and SM, not to mention they don't have their AP holding them back.
Imagine a matchup against Queen and Berdly against Kuuga and Agito.
Now Imma cook, thanks for that idea
 
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