RandomGuy2345
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Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.
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Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 7: Kamen Rider Shadow Moon and Kamen Rider Black Sun VS Berdly and The Queen (8-7-2)
- Thread starter Cimafranca133
- Start date
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I was just meaning a hypothetical situation man. Just saying. Looking forward to that match btw.
DimeUhDozen
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Jamesthetaker
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Put me down for Incon as well. Both sides' arguments are pretty even, so I am not sure which to lean to.
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5-6-2 now.
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Put me down for the Rider guys
Also, just saying, y’all are crazy for debating this long. I’d probably give up half way through lmao
Also, just saying, y’all are crazy for debating this long. I’d probably give up half way through lmao
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Votes are now 6-6-2
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RandomGuy2345
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We need one more vote for either side to start grace period (for incon ofc).
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Inconclusive for @Jamesthetaker reasonings.
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There's a small (Lol) misunderstanding here, & I think something said here earlier bares repeating:
That.
Deltarune: Lightners Range
vsbattles.fandom.com
"SOUL Height = 37.37 cm (The SOUL is bigger in the Dark World)"
A SOUL is over 4 & a half times smaller by height than most average men, who'd be around 170 cm, if not more.
Ergo, when you look at what happens in the bullet board, & go by that, it should be noted the leeway isn't that much; The gaps between the attacks are only around 22% of a person's height.
Do the Kamen Riders have Acrobatics so as to drastically reposition their bodies mid-air?
AFAIK, a typical person's body cannot fit through gaps that size without notable re-angling.
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Btw why is there three incon votes, I only remember two people voting.
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I am so blind 
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They actually do, but it's not in the profile and their addition is awaiting a CRT (but it's agreed on).
However, the location of the place also aids in their evasion of the danmaku. Since they're fighting in a dump
Thirdly, their blades will help tremendously in deflecting and blocking against the danmaku too.
Their blades can swing at an arc (duh), thereby deflecting the lines of danmaku they come across as they cross the gap.
We also keep forgetting that Queen and Berdly can also becoming Shadow Moon's shields for their danmaku via TK.
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respectfully
that man stood still against a couple wind gusts, swung his blade once, and got hit twice. then he ran up to a stationary target and hit them once
that doesn't really help your case lol
and again, most of queen and berdly's attacks don't come in waves or lines like what you just said, they come in steady streams shotgunning across the battlefield. they'd have to be raiden to make that many slashes over and over again in quick succession
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For further context, this is Shadow Moon in his Kaijin Form. Fair enough that him in this key will get hit like that. But we're using the Kamen Rider Shadow Moon key, so again he's not going to stand there like an idiot and take that like a champ. I'm just showcasing that Shadow Moon can do this, obviously this isn't the only thing he can do at this point.
Steady streams that have patterns. Again, their danmaku are neither Sans Level not Touhou Project levels, meaning that they can overcome this obstacle well. That's why I've been here for 4 pages talking about this. If it were anything along that line, I would've voted or surrendered a long time ago.
And that's just one method to deal with danmaku, they still have a few more ways of dealing with it. They do not need to go raiden level for this level of danmaku.
So this danmaku is going to happen all the time, even if Queen and Berdly are being attacked? What's stopping Shadow Moon from using one or both of them as shields for defending against their danmaku. 2 seconds tops and they'll already be in TK range. Hell, he can even pull her chair away to use it as a shield too, removing her flight and having a good cover against danmaku.
Because Undertale/Deltarune's danmaku level is NOT LIKE THIS, there's definitely no reason why Black Sun and Shadowmoon cannot have a fighting chance in this matchup with the abilities and capabilities they bring.
RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,578
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We still need one more vote...
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have i voted yet
cus if it's just going to go to incon then it doesn't really matter which side gets the vote right?
DimeUhDozen
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You haven’t, yeah.
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Pardon my late participation, please, but....
Further concern comes to mind:
There's been a fair amount of evidence showing that the KRs are willing to tank attacks to try & initiate their TK, or to charge in.
Similarly, I'd assume it's not something they'd foresee that their opponents who are sending multiple projectiles are several times stronger than them; Usually, they fight someone comparable.
Ergo, while they have the skill to dodge, if their in-character behaviour doesn't show an inclination to do so, they might not do so.
Another issue is that in the 2 seconds or so where they're approaching (& closing distance wouldn't be easy with Speed Equalized, & Berdly & Queen, as projectile users seeing opponents charging at them, would probably want to back away.) they might not be able to get a grip on TK long enough.
&/or, while they're initiating TK, they get hit with an attack they don't know they need to dodge. Again, they have the skills & senses to know where the attacks are & where they're coming from, but their characterization, from what I've seen, doesn't suggest they do dodge often, & are willing to take hits to try & do hits.
A "take hits to deal hits" mentality here, especially one which could be presented by such supposedly bloodlusted-against-nonhumans characters as these does not trade well when only a few hits from your opponents can leave you injured & possibly performing worse, even if they probably have fought well with injuries.
Part of the issue, even if they do try to dodge, is many of the gaps are likely going to be covered by intersecting Danmaku.
There's much less room for error than there would be againast Queen or Berdly individually, & again, a SOUL-sized gap is less than 40 cm.
Further concern comes to mind:
There's been a fair amount of evidence showing that the KRs are willing to tank attacks to try & initiate their TK, or to charge in.
Similarly, I'd assume it's not something they'd foresee that their opponents who are sending multiple projectiles are several times stronger than them; Usually, they fight someone comparable.
Ergo, while they have the skill to dodge, if their in-character behaviour doesn't show an inclination to do so, they might not do so.
Another issue is that in the 2 seconds or so where they're approaching (& closing distance wouldn't be easy with Speed Equalized, & Berdly & Queen, as projectile users seeing opponents charging at them, would probably want to back away.) they might not be able to get a grip on TK long enough.
&/or, while they're initiating TK, they get hit with an attack they don't know they need to dodge. Again, they have the skills & senses to know where the attacks are & where they're coming from, but their characterization, from what I've seen, doesn't suggest they do dodge often, & are willing to take hits to try & do hits.
A "take hits to deal hits" mentality here, especially one which could be presented by such supposedly bloodlusted-against-nonhumans characters as these does not trade well when only a few hits from your opponents can leave you injured & possibly performing worse, even if they probably have fought well with injuries.
Part of the issue, even if they do try to dodge, is many of the gaps are likely going to be covered by intersecting Danmaku.
There's much less room for error than there would be againast Queen or Berdly individually, & again, a SOUL-sized gap is less than 40 cm.
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Do not.
Do not make me write a long post like this.
I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.
Edit: Fe-ck it, I'm doing it.
Do not make me write a long post like this.
I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.
Edit: Fe-ck it, I'm doing it.
DimeUhDozen
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Yeah, the Riders dodging argument has been kind of wanked imo. Just because you can sense something doesn’t mean you’ll automatically be able to dodge it. Case in point the hundreds of times Spider-Man has gotten his shit rocked despite seeing the attack coming via Spider Sense.
RandomGuy2345
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I do sincerely apologize for any bother.
I worry this thread has been vexatious & tiring for many of the participants.
That said, I've no opposition to you doing so. A good debate is thorough, with arguments presented & considered from all sides.
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RandomGuy2345
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I do again apologize for the bother.
I just feel they're working with a small room for error spatially when they don't know they need to dodge initially, & with what little I know of their behaviour suggesting they tank just as often as dodge, this could lead to them taking devastating hits; Having the senses that give you the info you need to dodge successfully does not mean their behaviour will align with them choosing to dodge, especially if their anti-nonhuman mentality makes them extremely aggressive here.
I do not argue they are incapable of dodging.
I argue their behaviour makes them not guaranteed (50/50, maybe? I've seen scans in this thread where they took a hit they could've dodged, & vaguely recall stuff about taking hits to use their TK?) to choose to dodge, despite that their abilities give them the knowledge on how to dodge, somewhat compounded by that they presumably will not know the power of the attacks before being hit by them.
Lemme try & list out my understanding:
1. The KR have antennae & Shadow Eyes, which give them info. On that topic:
Additional Enhanced Senses (Black Eyes have a broad field of vision and can focus to see clearly from 800 meters away. He can detect even the smallest quantity of light, allowing him to function correctly even in dark places. The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense[2]), Extrasensory Perception (Alarm Points are extra sensory organs that enable him to identify events that the naked eye cannot detect, such as presence hiding in shadows and murderous intent, as well as approaching dangers[2])
3. Supposedly, there is a (Last I heard, incompleted? Clarify?) CRT to give these KR Acrobatics, though I don't know the feats for these. Acrobatics are valuable if they are to dodge multiple projectiles with small gaps.
4. I repeatedly read of these KR being "bloodlusted against nonhumans". I don't know the details of this. Although, being sentai or such who regularly fight monsters, & these two not looking like the most idealistic sort, I'd assume they're anti-hero-esque, possibly embittered.
If so, then they're probably inclined towards aggression, which can impede caution.
5. AFAIK, they do not initially know how powerful relative to them Queen & Berdly are, prior to taking a hit; If they take a hit early on in the match, it will deal significant damage. They'll likely know they need to dodge afterwards, however.
6. IIRC, Queen & Berdly only fought as a pair when Berdly was wired; However, this Berdly is not wired. Ergo, we have not seen what Danmaku would happen with this combination (Unwired Berdly + Queen) although we can speculate. Since the size of a SOUL is approximately 37.37 cm, not the size of a person, there isn't that much room.
7. To the Kamen Rider's credit, I recall something about a speed of like, 13 m/s or something? Is that combat or travel speed? If they want to dodge multiple projectiles, moving out of range is valuable. A speed like that or higher could help with that.
8. In the event they do go for Queen first (I'd assume they understand she creates the barrier, she flies, so better to take her out before her range becomes an issue, & they could probably note Berdly is weaker.), such as by approach, telekinesis, I've read arguments the Lightnerds do not need to move to attack. I do not know how much the KR would move while using Telekinesis, but they might be surprised or alarmed into ceasing it if she attacks during it. Similarly, Berdly is... very loyal to Queen. Despite his ego, I'd assume if she started being TK choked, he'd definitely target the attacker.
9. There is the issue of Queen flying out of range in her chair.
10. There is also stuff about a 3 times or stat amp the KR can apply with some of their moves? Unsure on the details.
Sorry for the wordy post while someone is typing up a long response of their own.
Lol, thank you. Flattery (Though it may be wrong of me to speculate this is such.) will get you everywhere, or so I've read.
DimeUhDozen
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For the record, I wasn't arguing that they wouldn't, just that they wouldn't be able to dodge everything for the reasons above. From my understanding, it was argued prior that the Riders would be able to dodge every attack they could throw at them, which I found a bit dubious.
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To their credit, IIRC about what I've read in this thread, they would apparently know the location & directions of the projectiles via their senses.
Depending on HOW they dodge, they probably could evade them all.
Flip through the air?
Dive?
Roll?
Side-step?
Given the size of the gaps they'd be dealing with, certain types of evasion are riskier than others, which brings to question what the KR favor.
The ranges involved:
Berdly: Tens of Meters
Queen: Hundreds of Meters with Attacks (As a Darkner, her range should be comparable to the likes of Lancer)
(Another tell she's the bigger threat of her duo, lol.)
Escaping the area where a Danmaku occurs is valuable, but depending on the Travel/Combat Speed present in this match, that may not always be feasible.
Especially if Queen has a far greater AoE as her range suggests. If Berdly were smart, he could try to capitalize on it by using his Danmaku to cut off gaps for escaping.
I also don't know if Berdly is using his Snowgrave moves. Maybe not since he might not be aggressive when paired with his precious Queen.
Similarly, any time spent in the air is risky, if Queen & Berdly are indeed attacking once per second. While gravity is 9.8 m/s, & they may be faster to ascend, IDK if the KR can DESCEND superhumanly fast, as descension through air is done via gravity. However, this is a small window (Even if the KR jumped like, 5 times his own height, he'd still land in 1 second, AFAIK.), & they'd be doing those risky jumps from informed positions about the projectiles location & direction.
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Alright, no problem, you didn't do anything wrong and it's not your fault for all this (you do seem to be a fine individual yourself). I'll be as nice and thorough as I possibly can, just for you.
Another point to clarify is that yes, they're bloodlusted, but not in a way that their judgment is clouded or anything. What I mean is that they'll do anything to kill their opponents.
As for clearing distance, it does take two seconds to run to Queen and Berdly, and since they're definitely going to go out of range for Shadow Moon's TK, they can jump to close the gap faster, since iirc there's nothing about jump height Equalization that I know of. Their jump can clear quite the distance, meaning that they can reach Queen before she flies out of range.
As for the danmaku part, I'm still in the dark of how it works, besides the gameplay videos I've looked at. Where would it comes from? Would it materialise from like thin air or like from them? Anyways, from what I've seen, all their danmaku have specific patterns that they'll be able to sense easily. Safe to say, they won't be overwhelmed by the variety of the danmaku. As for the danmaku themselves, the Riders have three main ways of dealing with them while they close the gap, and they can do these in quick succession, but obviously they aren't raiden level nor do they need to be.
Traditional Dodging, and they can jump and land quickly to boot.
Deflection via Shadow Moon's TK and their blades due to having NPI
And using their environment items to block the danmaku. This is mostly a Shadow Moon thing with his TK, but Black Sun can do so as well.
Another main thing about their danmaku is that they don't seem to overwhelm as much as I thought, in comparison to the levels of Touhou at least. A first time player of Deltarune fighting Queen and Berdly for the first time does not have experience dealing against their danmaku, but it's possible for them to dodge all of them even without that, and they do not have the senses and perception that these two have.
One thing you must know about Shadow Moon's Telekinesis is that it incorporates his Class M LS, which both riders share the same levels of. This means that once someone has been caught in his TK, they will not be able to escape it, since both Queen and Berdly share the same Class K LS. Shadow Moon is the only one having this, since I've deliberately used Base Kamen Rider Black Sun who doesn't have TK in his ability list.
I'm outside at the moment so I'm a bit slow at my writing, but I will reply to your next wall of text soon.
I sincerely thank you for being truly being an relatively fair angel for me. While I'm biased for the rider duo (then again who wouldn't be for their characters), but I've been trying to take everyone's arguments into account and be as fair as I possibly can, even to the point of having scans for most of the things I say to varying results.
You're not wrong about the consensus that they have the "take hits to deal hits" mentality, and it's especially very obvious in the early parts of the series and personal fights between each other in the later parts. However, this only applies to melee opponents and CQC opponents. Queen and Berdly are ranged opponents, first and foremost, so they don't risk getting shot at in character (it is also because they usually fight humans, who usually incorporate guns though a few Kaijins have ranged attacks). With this in mind, they will be dodging and evading the danmaku while they advance onto their opposition.
Another point to clarify is that yes, they're bloodlusted, but not in a way that their judgment is clouded or anything. What I mean is that they'll do anything to kill their opponents.
As for clearing distance, it does take two seconds to run to Queen and Berdly, and since they're definitely going to go out of range for Shadow Moon's TK, they can jump to close the gap faster, since iirc there's nothing about jump height Equalization that I know of. Their jump can clear quite the distance, meaning that they can reach Queen before she flies out of range.
As for the danmaku part, I'm still in the dark of how it works, besides the gameplay videos I've looked at. Where would it comes from? Would it materialise from like thin air or like from them? Anyways, from what I've seen, all their danmaku have specific patterns that they'll be able to sense easily. Safe to say, they won't be overwhelmed by the variety of the danmaku. As for the danmaku themselves, the Riders have three main ways of dealing with them while they close the gap, and they can do these in quick succession, but obviously they aren't raiden level nor do they need to be.
Traditional Dodging, and they can jump and land quickly to boot.
Deflection via Shadow Moon's TK and their blades due to having NPI
And using their environment items to block the danmaku. This is mostly a Shadow Moon thing with his TK, but Black Sun can do so as well.
Another main thing about their danmaku is that they don't seem to overwhelm as much as I thought, in comparison to the levels of Touhou at least. A first time player of Deltarune fighting Queen and Berdly for the first time does not have experience dealing against their danmaku, but it's possible for them to dodge all of them even without that, and they do not have the senses and perception that these two have.
One thing you must know about Shadow Moon's Telekinesis is that it incorporates his Class M LS, which both riders share the same levels of. This means that once someone has been caught in his TK, they will not be able to escape it, since both Queen and Berdly share the same Class K LS. Shadow Moon is the only one having this, since I've deliberately used Base Kamen Rider Black Sun who doesn't have TK in his ability list.
I'm outside at the moment so I'm a bit slow at my writing, but I will reply to your next wall of text soon.
I sincerely thank you for being truly being an relatively fair angel for me. While I'm biased for the rider duo (then again who wouldn't be for their characters), but I've been trying to take everyone's arguments into account and be as fair as I possibly can, even to the point of having scans for most of the things I say to varying results.
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A concern that comes up:
Just because they will be able to dodge does not mean they will be able to do so in a path that advances at the same rate or faster (Speed equalized match.) than the Lightnerds move away; A diagonal is longer than a straight line, airtime matters, & the Lightnerds have little motivation to let their opponents close in.
So they're murderous & prioritizing killing? How do we know how this affects their tactics?
Also, such bloodlusting, AFAIK, was not mentioned in the OP. Is it part of the Tournament rules.
We actually have a page about Bloodlust, so it may be worth clarifying what kind is present here.
Jumping would be travel speed. Assuming Speed Equalized, I don't see why this would be faster than their usual locomotion.
Also, the issue of any time spent descending creates vulnerability, depending on reactions.
I mentioned earlier, AFAIK, while Berdly & Queen have their Danmaku seen individually & as a pair of Wired Berdly & Queen, Unwired Berdly & Queen is unprecedented, & so, how their Danmaku may be hasn't been seen.
It'd presumably be like what it is for how they normally are.
Do they have something to accelerate their descent, as opposed to just gravity?
A question: Are their blades durable like them?
Can the blades be damaged?
Also, are they known to move while deflecting with TK?
OP stated the fight happens at a dumpster (Some posts later on from some users claim it's a dump, which has me confused.), so I'm not sure what they'd use.
I'm also unsure if projectiles would help in a 9-A match, especially since some of the attacks are tornados, energy, & acid.
It may be more difficult in this combination of Unwired Berdly & Queen, which isn't represented in games.
Also, the KR will be much bigger than a 37.37 cm SOUL.
Also, a player has a full view helping them, unlike someone who might be in person. The KR have something analogous to that with their senses, but how it is with them dodging in 3D space as opposed to on a 2D bullet board may change things.
Also, the reaction time window a player has & that of a combatant when considering combat/attack speed may be different.
I recall some debate about Queen flying away.
As well, as the Lightnerds not needing to move to do an attack.
So a question of dodging while TK holding comes up.
Fair enough. Hope things are going well for you.
It is concerning that you are this thankful. I worry how things have been for you.
Understandable. Emotional attachment can be a powerful thing.
Although, your dedication to scans is commendable & a bit enviable, lol.
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By golly that's a whole lot to answer for, which sucks since I'm on mobile rn. But don't fret, I'm writing down the response now. (I might not be able to give scans till I'm on PC, but I'll do my best )
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Brevity is not my strong suit, lol.
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This has been what I've been saying throughout the thread. Their senses and perception will be immensely instrumental in dealing with the danmaku. Even without this, in their kaijin forms, they've been shown to dodge bullets and both of them scale to New Kaijin Aoi, who did this and this. They also have this in their kaijin forms:
Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Should be comparable to other Kaijins, who can sense Black Sun's presence over great distances). I have explained this because their Kamen Rider Forms are more powerful than their kaijin form counterparts, having additional enhanced senses and new extrasensory perception.
They can actually can do all of the above. Not only are all Kamen Riders Acrobatic, they've also shown to have these capabilities. Hence the CRT has to be made. (It's not been completely accepted yet but the majority agrees off-site and I got an admin's agreement. Just need one more mod vote and it will be active, so do with it what you will, can't stop you from disregarding it since it's not on the profile yet).
Speed Equalization will be based on Shadow Moon, who is the slowest out of the four, with his movement speed being 13.5m/s and reaction speed heavily upscaling from 48.6894337716 m/s (since this value is from his Kaijin Form). I've heard that the reaction speed is equalised by halfing the slowing and giving the halved amount to all combatants. So with this in mind, I think they can possibly escape areas with high concentration of danmaku, and we're just talking about the dodge part.
Shadow Moon's Telekinesis can blow away and deflect and possibly redirect their danmaku back at them due to his telekinesis benefitting from NPI, which both riders have. That's why I've been talking about deflecting and stuff so many times.
As for the descending part, they should heavily upscale from Aoi who can descend pretty fast to the ground (unless I'm wrong because I don't really have an eye for this). And they can dive or dive kick to the ground.
This is the time I talk about their stat amps both of them have. I'm just going to copy and paste my paragraph on this: "Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Sun Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is also capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the root of life found in all living things, and manifesting the power of fusion and evolution beyond the lineage) for Black Sun and Forcefield Creation and Statistics Amplification (The Century King Moon Driver can generate a special magnetic field that surrounds the abdomen and increases the driver's output. It is capable of amplifying the "Vital Photon," the source of life that exists within the bodies of all living things, expressing the power of fusion and evolution that transcends lineage, and rapidly amplifying its power. If a Kingstone is inside, it can increase the output and possibly manifest a unique power. It also improved overall performance and maximum output compared to the Century King Sun Driver) for Shadow Moon respectively. They're at their civilian/kaijin form tabs, at which these abilities carry over to their rider abilities, in addition to having their own abilities and amp. Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg at once by performing "Vital Charge" to increase the strength of his attacks. He could also imbue Century King Black Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Black Sun and Energy Manipulation (He can focus the "Vital Photon" life force into his fist and leg to amplify power and activate the finisher. He could also imbue Century King Shadow Blade with the same energy, giving it greater cutting power) for Shadow Moon respectively again.
From this, we can see that Shadow Moon's amps are more powerful than that of Black Sun's. In this matchup, the Kingstone amp will also be present in Black Sun due to being his standard equipment as well. And don't worry, their forcefields are not for defence, they're only for gathering even more power."
However, this comes with one huge problem. The series never makes it clear how much they get amped, and this can be seen as unquantifiable. What the amps can do at least are: "This is their amps in action, more specifically the power aspect of it." You can see that Shadow Moon's TK got amped, increasing its range, force and power, and Black Sun's damage capabilities. Them charging their amps like that is more for dramatic storytelling because they can amp themselves very quickly too. I know that an unquantifiable amp can't determine the fight, but we cannot ignore the fact that they have amps, two bloody amps in their profile that they're allowed to use to even the playing field, even if the actual amp is like 1% increase or even lesser.
This part owes an explanation. Black Sun and Shadow Moon usually get particularly violent against non-humans (or humans if they pose enough threat) if and only if their adversaries are strangers, and not people/kaijins they they know personally to some capacity. For humans, they usually go for incap instead though Shadow Moon can also get violent against humans. They do not lose their thinking abilities or any of the sort, since they do whatever they can to end things quickly in any plausible and efficient way they possibly can, whether by incap or killing. I can give further scans for this behaviour if you want further explanation since I won't be doing so now because the series can get particularly gory. So I do have to correct myself after reading the page on bloodlust, they are probably not bloodlusted in character, but they don't hold back against any adversaries they don't have a personal connection. This can be interpreted as bloodlust or not, and that is why I keep saying they are incredibly bloodlusted. They just don't lose their mind or like fight recklessly iirc.
Most of Unwired Berdly's danmakus only originate in one direction or its AOE is admittedly too telegraphed and obvious for them to get hit by. Wired Berdly feels more of a threat than normal Berdly according to the gameplay, but even then it's only by a small margin and he loses out on every other attack other than tornadoes.
While their blades come from their hind legs, their limited body control makes their blades become sturdy and blade-like. As far as I'm aware, they might be very durable thanks to not being damaged at all in the entire series.
Yes. While he may just be walking slowly here, he can very well be mobile while he uses the TK, especially if he has to spam it a lot. Using his TK doesn't need any effort at all, as seen in this very scan. In his rider form, he should have more powerful TK than in his human form, it will be even less of an effort for him.
For this one, OP has to clarify what they mean, since that has me confused too. I just assume they'll be in a dump but if it's near a dumpster somewhere, not all hope is lost.
As for the variety of projectiles, they can figure out what projectiles to dodge and which ones to deflect due to their senses in play. Due to their NPI, they should be able to deflect tornadoes and energy, but Shadow Moon will be the main bane of acid projectiles with his TK since Black Sun can only dodge that and might not be able to deflect that.
Since their projectiles are around the size of a SOUL (regardless of bigger or smaller), this can be mitigated by non-dodging methods of evasion should they get to a point where dodging isn't as favourable, but by the attack variety, I'm sure they'll be able to pull it off. It may not be comparable, but they've dodged bullets in their kaijin forms. So in their rider forms, they should have more than what it takes to overcome the countless danmaku coming at them. After all, it isn't Touhou Project levels.
While the riders don't have this, they have experience in dodging in enclosed spaces. In open areas, it's even better for them (they have experience here too, dw) since they get a huge space to go through the danmaku without getting hit.
I will admit, it is not easy standing my ground, and this thread has gone to four pages and the vote is still in a stalemate with 7-7-3. Just know that it's a total breath of fresh air having you join the debate, to be honest.
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I completely forgot about Imaginym's first questions sorry
Let me answer them in a while.
Let me answer them in a while.
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Ok, certain questions have already been answered so I'll go ahead and answer the ones that haven't been answered yet. Answer answer.
Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Should be comparable to other Kaijins, who can sense Black Sun's presence over great distances)
Oh, I'm pasting these down again so that it's easier to read my point and the ability itself.
Shadow Moon can use any one of the two he pulled with TK to be used as his danmaku shield, making them get hit by their own damage instead of Shadow Moon or Black Sun. This can completely stop danmaku which originates literally from them and not around the riders according to how they're portrayed by the gameplay (like Unwired Berdly's axe one and Queen's acid cup and wires).
You basically answered yourself at this question via the additional Enhanced Senses (The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense). I think Extrasensory Perception will help too, and just like the enhanced senses, it's in your very question above it. Extrasensory Perception (Alarm Points are extra sensory organs that enable him to identify events that the naked eye cannot detect, such as presence hiding in shadows and murderous intent, as well as approaching dangers).
Their senses should at least tell them information on what the kind of projectile is, so they don't exactly need to be hit to know they need to dodge.
Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Should be comparable to other Kaijins, who can sense Black Sun's presence over great distances)
Oh, I'm pasting these down again so that it's easier to read my point and the ability itself.
iirc Queen creates her barriers after her acid attack (at which Shadow Moon will inevitably contribute in its formation due to blowing them back to her). And since her barrier only focuses on the front, it is susceptible to TK. Knowing how her barrier is formed, SM will not let it happen again, by knocking her cup off or spinning her chair then TKing it.
Shadow Moon can use any one of the two he pulled with TK to be used as his danmaku shield, making them get hit by their own damage instead of Shadow Moon or Black Sun. This can completely stop danmaku which originates literally from them and not around the riders according to how they're portrayed by the gameplay (like Unwired Berdly's axe one and Queen's acid cup and wires).
There is the more pressing matter that Shadow Moon can TK her chair if he gets into range, robbing her of her mobile vehicle and possibly getting him a good shield for the danmaku.
