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Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 5: Kris and Noelle VS Sub-Zero and Scorpion (2-7-0)
- Thread starter Cimafranca133
- Start date
Catbowtie
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Of course I get Kris and Noelle.
I've played Deltarune, but only up to Chapter 1. Looking at Kris' and Noelle's abilities, it isn't exactly anything Sub Zero and Scorpion hasn't dealt with or couldn't deduce. I don't exactly know what Kris starts with since we, the player, control her actions, so I'll let the Kris supporters handle that.
Scorpion and Sub-Zero has the advantage in the experience and skill department. (This is yap to elaborate why they have the skill & experience advantage. Feel free to quit reading this section at any time) Their history of fighting goes to Mortal Kombat (2011), Mortal Kombat X, and Mortal Kombat 11. Scorpion and Sub-Zero are, well, ninjas, with Sub-Zero "being abducted as a kid to train in the techniques of assassination." Scorpion is depicted as comparable to Sub-Zero, or at least above Bi-Han, since this version of Scorpion had beaten Bi-Han to the point where Bi-Han couldn't continue to fight. Bi-Han is a Elder Sub-Zero of the Lin Kuei family. Lin Kuei are ice ninjas (In Mortal Kombat 11), they've been stated to exist for centuries, passing on their progressively more and more honed "abilities" from generation to generation. None of the people in the Lin Kuei are chumps, since they all have unique abilities that set them apart from normal men. Bi-Han sits over all of them as an Elder. The amount of Lin Kuei members is hard to determine, because there's no exact number clearly stated. Though, it is possible to manually count the amount of Lin Kuei members on screen when they are depicted. I will not be doing that.
With all this being said and done, Sub-Zero and Scorpion proceed to dog the absolute **** out of Frost, Cyrax, at least five cyborg Lin Kuei members (Most likely not limitd to the five shown on screen. When Sub-Zero fights the five cyborg Lin Kuei members in an alternate decision, you can count an extra cyborg, which means that there were more cyborgs coming to fight in the battle), Cryax AGAIN, and finally Bi-Han (Who is stronger than his human version, minus the ice manipulation, but can and will spam portals and duplication [See his profile for more clarification on his abilities]) I can see someone arguing for skill not playing a factor in Scorpion (or Sub-Zero), fighting the five cyborg Lin Kuei members, as it can be argued as simply stat-stomping, but Scorpion was shown as beating Cryax because of the difference in Hand-To-Hand combat. This Hand-To-Hand extends to his Spear since it's essentially just an extendable knife that doubles as a harpoon.
Now, for the fight at hand. I think that Kris' Extended Melee would catch Sub-Zero and Scorpion off guard, as the visual of Kris swinging her sword, very clearly missing then the attack hitting either of them would surprise them, but they'd very easily understand the ability. Sub-Zero and Scorpion have a slight Attack Potency advantage (0.09 Tons of TNT, Small Building level vs 0.074 Tons of TNT (Small Building level)), with him able to boost the damage with his Hellfire. Scorpion is shown to be able to beat someone of comparable Attack Potency to him with skill, so Kris and Noelle being on the weaker side would help them both. From the distance of 30 meters, Scorpion starts with teleporting to Kris and Noelle instantly. Sub-Zero would have to walk the 30 meters, and he'd throwing his signature Ice Ball. Kris would aim dodge it, because it's nothing special. Ice Ball can be altered to go faster or slower, but Kris wouldn't have trouble because she's experienced in dodging projectiles. The fight between Scorpion and Kris would be towards Scorpion's favor because of the skill difference and Teleportation (This is how quickly Scorpion is able to teleport. The Scorpion he's fighting is literally a younger version of himself, so he scales [He can also do it in quick succession]) Kris does resist Scoprion's Hellfire, since she withstood getting electrocuted which means Heat Resistance. Hellfire also targets souls, but this version of Scorpion never uses it outside of it's other applications. It'd be straight sword fighting for Kris and Scorpion. If and when Kris pulls out Yellow Mode (For whatever circumstance that Kris would In-Character use Yellow Mode), Scorpion dodges the Danmaku by teleporting out of the way, while Sub-Zero makes an Ice Forcefield. Or he can just teleport. Scorpion and Sub-Zero would 2v1 Kris and beat her with the skill difference. Personally, I don't think Noelle is going to make a difference here. As soon as Noelle uses Healing, both Scorpion and Sub-Zero would turn their focus to her. Having two people that can teleport anywhere in quick succession focus on Noelle would be a quick defeat for Noelle (She's nowhere near as smart, skilled, or experienced as Kris that would help her survive the jumping that Scorpion and Sub-Zero would give her, even Scorpion by himself defeats Noelle)
I vote Scorpion and Sub-Zero for being able to take advantage of the skill and Attack Potency difference, as well as having Teleportation, to deal with and defeat Kris and Noelle.
If it means anything, Sub-Zero and Scorpion will go for incapacitation or knockout rather than killing Kris and Noelle. They just don't do that In-Character.
I've played Deltarune, but only up to Chapter 1. Looking at Kris' and Noelle's abilities, it isn't exactly anything Sub Zero and Scorpion hasn't dealt with or couldn't deduce. I don't exactly know what Kris starts with since we, the player, control her actions, so I'll let the Kris supporters handle that.
Scorpion and Sub-Zero has the advantage in the experience and skill department. (This is yap to elaborate why they have the skill & experience advantage. Feel free to quit reading this section at any time) Their history of fighting goes to Mortal Kombat (2011), Mortal Kombat X, and Mortal Kombat 11. Scorpion and Sub-Zero are, well, ninjas, with Sub-Zero "being abducted as a kid to train in the techniques of assassination." Scorpion is depicted as comparable to Sub-Zero, or at least above Bi-Han, since this version of Scorpion had beaten Bi-Han to the point where Bi-Han couldn't continue to fight. Bi-Han is a Elder Sub-Zero of the Lin Kuei family. Lin Kuei are ice ninjas (In Mortal Kombat 11), they've been stated to exist for centuries, passing on their progressively more and more honed "abilities" from generation to generation. None of the people in the Lin Kuei are chumps, since they all have unique abilities that set them apart from normal men. Bi-Han sits over all of them as an Elder. The amount of Lin Kuei members is hard to determine, because there's no exact number clearly stated. Though, it is possible to manually count the amount of Lin Kuei members on screen when they are depicted. I will not be doing that.
These Lin Kuei members were further enhanced by Cybernetization to "erase weakness from the Lin Kuei." The Cyberization is quantifiable, because
it's narratively treated as an exponential enhancement. One of the Cyborgs is Sektor, a Grandmaster of the Cyber Lin Kuei. They both have a profile here on the Forum. With all this being said and done, Sub-Zero and Scorpion proceed to dog the absolute **** out of Frost, Cyrax, at least five cyborg Lin Kuei members (Most likely not limitd to the five shown on screen. When Sub-Zero fights the five cyborg Lin Kuei members in an alternate decision, you can count an extra cyborg, which means that there were more cyborgs coming to fight in the battle), Cryax AGAIN, and finally Bi-Han (Who is stronger than his human version, minus the ice manipulation, but can and will spam portals and duplication [See his profile for more clarification on his abilities]) I can see someone arguing for skill not playing a factor in Scorpion (or Sub-Zero), fighting the five cyborg Lin Kuei members, as it can be argued as simply stat-stomping, but Scorpion was shown as beating Cryax because of the difference in Hand-To-Hand combat. This Hand-To-Hand extends to his Spear since it's essentially just an extendable knife that doubles as a harpoon.
Now, for the fight at hand. I think that Kris' Extended Melee would catch Sub-Zero and Scorpion off guard, as the visual of Kris swinging her sword, very clearly missing then the attack hitting either of them would surprise them, but they'd very easily understand the ability. Sub-Zero and Scorpion have a slight Attack Potency advantage (0.09 Tons of TNT, Small Building level vs 0.074 Tons of TNT (Small Building level)), with him able to boost the damage with his Hellfire. Scorpion is shown to be able to beat someone of comparable Attack Potency to him with skill, so Kris and Noelle being on the weaker side would help them both. From the distance of 30 meters, Scorpion starts with teleporting to Kris and Noelle instantly. Sub-Zero would have to walk the 30 meters, and he'd throwing his signature Ice Ball. Kris would aim dodge it, because it's nothing special. Ice Ball can be altered to go faster or slower, but Kris wouldn't have trouble because she's experienced in dodging projectiles. The fight between Scorpion and Kris would be towards Scorpion's favor because of the skill difference and Teleportation (This is how quickly Scorpion is able to teleport. The Scorpion he's fighting is literally a younger version of himself, so he scales [He can also do it in quick succession]) Kris does resist Scoprion's Hellfire, since she withstood getting electrocuted which means Heat Resistance. Hellfire also targets souls, but this version of Scorpion never uses it outside of it's other applications. It'd be straight sword fighting for Kris and Scorpion. If and when Kris pulls out Yellow Mode (For whatever circumstance that Kris would In-Character use Yellow Mode), Scorpion dodges the Danmaku by teleporting out of the way, while Sub-Zero makes an Ice Forcefield. Or he can just teleport. Scorpion and Sub-Zero would 2v1 Kris and beat her with the skill difference. Personally, I don't think Noelle is going to make a difference here. As soon as Noelle uses Healing, both Scorpion and Sub-Zero would turn their focus to her. Having two people that can teleport anywhere in quick succession focus on Noelle would be a quick defeat for Noelle (She's nowhere near as smart, skilled, or experienced as Kris that would help her survive the jumping that Scorpion and Sub-Zero would give her, even Scorpion by himself defeats Noelle)
I vote Scorpion and Sub-Zero for being able to take advantage of the skill and Attack Potency difference, as well as having Teleportation, to deal with and defeat Kris and Noelle.
If it means anything, Sub-Zero and Scorpion will go for incapacitation or knockout rather than killing Kris and Noelle. They just don't do that In-Character.
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RandomGuy2345
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Following.
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Alright, I just woke up, so let's get this over with.
Anyhow, I may as well start off my side. Without a doubt, Scorpion and Sub-Zero are slightly stronger and more durable value-wise, but given how Kris has fought characters up to 11 DEF, they should very much upscale from Berdly's feat to some unknown degree. And even then, like I said, Kris has been used to fighting enemies stronger than themselves. Experience-wise Scorpion and Sub-Zero obviously take it, and they appear to be generally better at close-ranged combat, but Kris and Noelle are better at long-ranged combat with the latter generally having better AoE for the potential to get both of them with IceShock.
As for Scorpion and Sub-Zero's attacks, teleportation may be an issue but as I've said before, this is nothing new for Kris as they've fought Jevil who spams the same exact ability when attacking. Sub-Zero's ice abilities are practically useless here as both Kris and Noelle resist ice attacks, but the same cannot be said about Scorpion and Sub-Zero being able to resist IceShock, which means they are vulnerable to getting frozen. Kris is especially able to withstand heat which makes Scorpion's hellfire less effective on them. That being said, the only thing that is worrying for Kris and Noelle is Scorpion and Sub-Zero's better close-ranged combat. Thankfully, thanks to being able to dodge danmaku on a regular basis, playing the range game shouldn't be a problem even if it means they will keep teleporting to get close. The fact that Kris and Noelle's attacks can reach instantly from a distance means that Scorpion and Sub-Zero will have a hard time dodging (As with any 2D fighting game) and combined with the fact that grazing attacks will build TP which will allow Noelle to use IceShock that attacks on an AoE scale means that Scorpion and Sub-Zero will be prone to getting frozen eventually. Alternatively, you have Sleep Mist, which neither of the ninjas resist, that attacks also on an AoE scale. Kris can also utilize many ACTs in an attempt to get the ninjas to drop their defenses.
So with mid-high difficulty, I'm voting Kris and Noelle. Simply put, although the ninjas are stronger, more experienced, and have better close-ranged combat, Kris and Noelle are better skilled at dodging, have better long-ranged combat, better abilities that the ninjas don't resist (ACTs, IceShock, and Sleep Mist), and better resistances in the form of being able to resist Sub-Zero freezing them.
Kris starts by checking both of their stats to learn what the both of them are capable of doing (As well as reading their ATK and DEF) while Noelle will start defending to gain TP. Even if the both of the ninjas are stronger than them value-wise, I'd argue that Kris and Noelle upscale from the value they scale from since Berdly had 0 DEF when he survived his coaster exploding, while Kris has been used to fighting those who are not only stronger than them, but also higher defense (The latter of which they can apply to themselves with armor to become more durable).
I won't doubt this considering how long their series is.
Mind you that teleportation spam isn't something new to Kris as Jevil does the same exact thing.
You sure about that? Because I've seen multiple gameplay videos of Mortal Kombat showing that the characters always lead with killing via fatalities because it's literally what the game is most famous for. As soon as they kill Kris and Noelle, they player will have the opportunity to reset the battle so they know what to do next time to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Anyhow, I may as well start off my side. Without a doubt, Scorpion and Sub-Zero are slightly stronger and more durable value-wise, but given how Kris has fought characters up to 11 DEF, they should very much upscale from Berdly's feat to some unknown degree. And even then, like I said, Kris has been used to fighting enemies stronger than themselves. Experience-wise Scorpion and Sub-Zero obviously take it, and they appear to be generally better at close-ranged combat, but Kris and Noelle are better at long-ranged combat with the latter generally having better AoE for the potential to get both of them with IceShock.
As for Scorpion and Sub-Zero's attacks, teleportation may be an issue but as I've said before, this is nothing new for Kris as they've fought Jevil who spams the same exact ability when attacking. Sub-Zero's ice abilities are practically useless here as both Kris and Noelle resist ice attacks, but the same cannot be said about Scorpion and Sub-Zero being able to resist IceShock, which means they are vulnerable to getting frozen. Kris is especially able to withstand heat which makes Scorpion's hellfire less effective on them. That being said, the only thing that is worrying for Kris and Noelle is Scorpion and Sub-Zero's better close-ranged combat. Thankfully, thanks to being able to dodge danmaku on a regular basis, playing the range game shouldn't be a problem even if it means they will keep teleporting to get close. The fact that Kris and Noelle's attacks can reach instantly from a distance means that Scorpion and Sub-Zero will have a hard time dodging (As with any 2D fighting game) and combined with the fact that grazing attacks will build TP which will allow Noelle to use IceShock that attacks on an AoE scale means that Scorpion and Sub-Zero will be prone to getting frozen eventually. Alternatively, you have Sleep Mist, which neither of the ninjas resist, that attacks also on an AoE scale. Kris can also utilize many ACTs in an attempt to get the ninjas to drop their defenses.
So with mid-high difficulty, I'm voting Kris and Noelle. Simply put, although the ninjas are stronger, more experienced, and have better close-ranged combat, Kris and Noelle are better skilled at dodging, have better long-ranged combat, better abilities that the ninjas don't resist (ACTs, IceShock, and Sleep Mist), and better resistances in the form of being able to resist Sub-Zero freezing them.
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Holy shit this is more of a toe-to-toe matchup than I would've thought and I'm worried as ****.
Chipping in on both sides, Grandmaster Kuai Liang can resist Ice Manipulation due to going head-to-head with Frost, whose ice powers ain't no slouch since iirc she trained under him. And I assume Scorpion can heat himself enough not to get frozen like a popsicle (or the intangibility). What Catbowtie also forgot to mention about Sub-Zero is that he too can close the gap via teleportation (albeit he probably can't go as far as Hanzo). This matchup can quickly become a close-up match in a matter of a few seconds, and while Kris would be fine, Noelle might have some trouble keeping up. In the profile, Sleep Gas is stated to only work on tired enemies and it does look like all the combatant's stamina is at the same tier (we're going to need stamina feats for this one). Can Scorpion be touched in his intangible state with Kris's NPI? Regardless of that, this phasing damage technique will cause some trouble for the deltarune duo.
On the flip side, Kris can amp himself and his allies while also rebuffing his enemies, though Pirouette is a weird ass move I watched and it has varying results. Though at the very least it can cause tiredness to his opponents along with hypnosis (which lowers the attack of the ninja duo). By the by, Noelle's IceShock is an AOE projectile or just plain aoe like those final fantasy magic spells? And can their danmaku be deflected by their weaponry?
This match is much more dependent on Kris than Noelle, but not to the point that she's a liability, with healing spells and whatnot to help out. If she goes down, it would be harder for her partner to win. Checking the profile again, I don't see any ACTs that have to do with kindness, but the others will suffice.
Point of consensus is that this is another even matchup that probably needs more points and arguments for a decisive win, and I'm all for it. Following.
Chipping in on both sides, Grandmaster Kuai Liang can resist Ice Manipulation due to going head-to-head with Frost, whose ice powers ain't no slouch since iirc she trained under him. And I assume Scorpion can heat himself enough not to get frozen like a popsicle (or the intangibility). What Catbowtie also forgot to mention about Sub-Zero is that he too can close the gap via teleportation (albeit he probably can't go as far as Hanzo). This matchup can quickly become a close-up match in a matter of a few seconds, and while Kris would be fine, Noelle might have some trouble keeping up. In the profile, Sleep Gas is stated to only work on tired enemies and it does look like all the combatant's stamina is at the same tier (we're going to need stamina feats for this one). Can Scorpion be touched in his intangible state with Kris's NPI? Regardless of that, this phasing damage technique will cause some trouble for the deltarune duo.
On the flip side, Kris can amp himself and his allies while also rebuffing his enemies, though Pirouette is a weird ass move I watched and it has varying results. Though at the very least it can cause tiredness to his opponents along with hypnosis (which lowers the attack of the ninja duo). By the by, Noelle's IceShock is an AOE projectile or just plain aoe like those final fantasy magic spells? And can their danmaku be deflected by their weaponry?
This match is much more dependent on Kris than Noelle, but not to the point that she's a liability, with healing spells and whatnot to help out. If she goes down, it would be harder for her partner to win. Checking the profile again, I don't see any ACTs that have to do with kindness, but the others will suffice.
This... is concerning to say the least. So this matchup would just loop endlessly till Kris and Noelle win?
iirc Story gameplay doesn't let you do fatalities to accommodate for the story, and it also doesn't happen in the story unless someone is going to die.
Point of consensus is that this is another even matchup that probably needs more points and arguments for a decisive win, and I'm all for it. Following.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,202
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I don't think Scorpion and Sub-Zero can do much against Pirouette/Hypnosis into Sleep Mist
Plus, Kris can spam Big Shots (Which are x3 Kris' speed) at point blank from their soul if Scorpion and Sub-Zero get too close
I feel like having the Player rewinding the fight everytime they die is a bit much for a Low Hax tourney, but eh
Plus, Kris can spam Big Shots (Which are x3 Kris' speed) at point blank from their soul if Scorpion and Sub-Zero get too close
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no since they can be incapacitated as that wouldn't count as death which is when the player comes into play. also following since both sides still have arguments but currently leaning towards Kris and Noelle.
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This should only apply to when Kris dies, I assume right?
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,202
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Nothing really stops the Player from LOADing back to a SAVE before the two were knocked out tho
Nah, the SOUL usually doesn't break if Kris is down, only does so when the entire party is down
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Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,202
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Kris also has 12 consumable items, so I think they can also just spam heal
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Just saying, smurf Type 8 Immortality doesn't seem like Low/No Hax. So I feel that Kris should either be disqualified, or have it restricted in this tourney
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Like I said, this can by bypassed by them being KO'd/incapacitated, hence why they were allowed.
koopa3144
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RandomGuy2345
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Wait. I don't get it.
So Sub-Zero and Scorpion can bypass Type 8 Immo via incap or KO, but it turns out that Kris and Noelle can just load back to a SAVE to where they weren't knocked out?
Which one is it?
So Sub-Zero and Scorpion can bypass Type 8 Immo via incap or KO, but it turns out that Kris and Noelle can just load back to a SAVE to where they weren't knocked out?
Which one is it?
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Even so, that still seems way too haxy for a Low/No Hax Tournament, since it basically makes killing them out of the question.
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Why would the player have any reason to reload before being knocked out?
RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,698
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@Adem_Warlock69 said that, so wait for a response from him.
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I mean Hat Kid is in for the same reason, that her type 4 can be bypassed if shes incapacitated
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,202
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Losing the fight? Especially if it this is for their Snowgrave Route versions
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Yea, and looking back, they should’ve been disqualified, or have it restricted for the same reasons
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,202
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Hat Kid can hypothetically unlock Nyakuza Metro (a.k.a Team up with Empress) before making any deals with Snatcher, but Kris can't really exist without the Player (For long)
RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,698
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If this is true, then Type 8 Immo needs to restricted from the tourney, or they need to be disqualified.
RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,698
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So are we restricting Type 8 or disqualifying them?
Catbowtie
Any/All- 926
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Scorpion and Sub-Zero are used to fighting people that are comparable to them with considerable hax (Acid Manipulation for Sub-Zero and Ice Manipulation for Scorpion) on top of that. Kris being used to fighting people stronger than her wouldn't negate that Scorpion and Sub-Zero are in fact stronger than her. And the difference here is that Sub-Zero and Scorpion can effectively use their Attack Potency advantage. Whereas every single boss in Deltarune has done attacks that can be very easily aim dodged therefore rendering their AP advantage null, Kris would see Scorpion consume himself in flames, then appear right next to her, punch her, then teleport again.
Jevil's teleportation and Scoprion's teleportation are comparable but they use it in different ways. In the entire Jevil fight, Jevil there's only two times (Correct me if I'm wrong) where Jevil uses constant teleportation, and that is to fire projectiles. Scorpion teleports right at Kris. Jevil is seen teleporting at least far enough where Kris can aim dodge the projectiles. Scorpion simply does not do this. An equivalent scenario would be if Jevil teleported point blank at Kris' Soul and fired the projectiles. If anything, Jevil's teleportation goes more towards Kris' skill in dodging Danmaku.
Yes, I am sure about my statement. The gameplay videos you are referring to is Gameplay Mechanics, which means it's considered non-canon. I can see that argument being valid for younger versions of Scorpion and Sub-Zero, but for these versions, it is not. The current Key's Kuai Lang does not kill In-Character. Hanzo Hasashi definitely would not kill since his entire backstory is wanting revenge for the Lin Kuei killing his wife and kids, if anything, Scorpion would much rather go to incapacitation than killing kids (Kris and Noelle are guessed to be 16 years old, so teenagers)
Also, what? How can Kuai Lang and Hanzo Hasashi deal with someone who can reset their actions if Kris so as much feels threatened by them?
This does not remove the advantage Scorpion and Sub-Zero has. Being used to fighting enemies stronger than you doesn't take away from the fact that they are stronger than you. Scorpion and Sub-Zero would know, as experienced warriors, to push the advantage of the AP advantage. It isn't as if Kris can shoo away the AP advantage against two higher skilled people than him, while both of them are attacking him at the same time. Kris would know to be careful around Scorpion and Sub-Zero, opting to use her Defend option more, but that can only do so much against someone who is superior to him in combat. For every second that Kris is focusing on defense, she is missing out on attacking, and Scorpion is attacking her and tiring her out.
Long-ranged combat doesn't mean anything because Scorpion is teleporting to Kris and Noelle. Do either of them have any ability to prevent Scorpion from teleporting right at their location? I didn't see it in their profile. Please quote it (I'm not being sarcastic or condescending) Noelle is green in fighting. Scorpion and Sub-Zero would see her cast magic, have the spell come towards them, and they would get the hell out of dodge. As soon as Noelle uses IceShock, both Sub-Zero and Scorpion would equate her to a Lin Kuei member (Not saying that they'd assume she IS a Lin Kuei member, but they'd think Noelle is like Frost), and focus on defeating her. Sub-Zero would very well duel Noelle in Ice Manipulation since that's his thing. Noelle would crack under pressure since unlike Kris, she isn't used to or comparable to Kris' ability to fight people stronger than her. Noelle gets one IceShock off before either or both of the duo turns to her and attacks her. Noelle will rarely get IceShock off on Scorpion or Sub-Zero since Scorpion could teleport and Sub-Zero would just create a forcefield, teleport, or simply block (As I don't think Noelle's IceShock is going to put down Sub-Zero or Scorpion anytime soon before they get to her first)
As a person who has background knowledge on Mortal Kombat, especially addition 11, there is never situation where Scorpion and Sub-Zero would let Noelle whittle them down with IceShock before they make whatever plan to counter Noelle. Even if they have an ability to stop Scorpion (or Sub-Zero) from teleporting to Noelle, Scorpion simply pulls Noelle to him. Does Noelle have any comparable feats to Kris of dodging projectiles? Would she even lock the **** in to dodge a flaming spear coming right at her? I'm mentioning this because Noelle is a 16 year old who for all intents and purposes, is your above-average high school student. Her Standard Tactics even say she's cowardly.
Kris isn't going to get a breath in between having the Attack Potency, skill difference, and constant teleportation on his butt to tell Noelle what to do. It quite literally takes either of Scorpion or Sub-Zero to walk up to Noelle before she breaks down. They would notice this, since it's well, obvious when someone is flailing their arms like they don't know how to fight and covering their eyes, and they would absolutely capitalize on this.
You're right, but I'd like to highlight that Jevil and Scorpion teleport in different ways. While Jevil teleports to have new angles to shoot his easily aim dodge-able projectiles, Scorpion teleports at Kris' location immediately, having far less reaction time for Kris. Similarly to what I said before, knowing someone can teleport doesn't stop them from being unpredictable. Unless Kris can predict where Scorpion's next teleportation locations are, Kris is getting beaten by Scorpion's teleportation all the same, especially with the AP difference, and especially with the skill difference. Yes, Sub-Zeros ice abilities wouldn't matter here, but Sub-Zero doesn't rely on it. (Ironically I think Sub-Zero is able to by-pass resistance to Ice Manipulation, but it isn't on his profile so I won't use it) Sub-Zero has Ice Manipulation resistance, while Scorpion has dealt with two different master Cryomancer to know that he should focus on dodging Noelle's attacks. Even then, IceShock isn't generating enough AP advantage where it would be a problem. If it is, Scorpion is teleporting to her and attacking her or pulling Noelle to him and attacking her. I already mentioned Scorpion's Hellfire not playing a factor, but that doesn't increase Kris' and Noelle's chances of winning, as Scorpion very occasionally uses it and only when using his Spear, which serves a completely different purpose. Scorpion and Sub-Zero being close range fighters isn't an issue for them (and isn't an advantage for Kris and Noelle) because Scorpion teleports to Kris and Noelle while Sub-Zero can opt to teleport himself or even sneak up on Noelle or Kris.
Dodging Danmaku does not equate to being able to dodge melee attacks. All that means is Kris would easily dodge Sub-Zero's Ice Balls and Scorpion's Spear. That is it. Kris and Noelle aren't moving faster than Scorpion or Sub-Zero can teleport (Plus, speed is equalized) That's what teleportation is all about. Getting to the location instantly. As I have said in my initial post, Kris' extended melee range would catch them off guard, but they'd pretty easily understand it and dodge it. The attack doesn't appear instantly at Sub-Zero's and Scorpion's location. First, Kris has to aim her attack, then actually swing her sword, and then the attack appears at the location. It also helps that Kris' melee attacks has some stars (or sparkle) that fly off, so Scorpion and Sub-Zero would see that and know to get the **** out of the way. Again, superior skill should be able to help them dodge Kris' attacks. Scorpion grazing attacks is a weird thing. I mean, yea, at certain points Kris would be able to get TP, but Scorpion is going to be more-frequently clashing blades and hitting Kris more times than he is "grazing" her (Grazing implying that he barely hits her), if anything, that'd work against Kris since he'd be taking risks to get TP. Again, Sub-Zero and Scorpion aren't sitting ducks. They aren't going to let Noelle use IceShock on them for the third time in a row without them doing something about it, especially when they see themselves freezing. Sub-Zero, as a cryomancer, would be doing everything in his power to counteract Noelle's IceShock (And couldn't Scorpion just heat himself back up with Hellfire Manipulation?) Noelle doesn't have any feats of being able to hit a constantly teleporting target that, at any time, can throw a Spear at her and pull her towards him.
Sleep Mist gets countered by Sub-Zero just blasting the mist away. He is a better Cryomancy user than Noelle (See Sub-Zero's list of Cryomancy moves and Powers & Abilities), and Sleep Mist only works if Scorpion and Sub-Zero are tired. They would never let themselves get tired, especially when they have the skill difference and teleportation. I am open to Kris being able to use Social Influencing to defeat Scorpion and Sub-Zero, since these two versions of them aren't blood thirsty ninjas hellbent on destroying their enemies (They actually are quite reciprocal to talking. Bi-Han, who is literally the Arch-Enemy of the Lin Kuei, was still able to engage in conversation in them [Although it was just smack-talk] and both of them letting Cryax have enough time to explain his motivations), but if Kris' first move isn't to try Social Influencing, they lose more often than not. Ironically, I can even see Scorpion and Sub-Zero dogging Kris and Noelle, only for Kris to use Social Influencing to win. That is the only scenario I will ever change my vote to Kris and Noelle, but as Psychomaster has put it, they use ACT first, then fight them, so I am keeping my vote on Scorpion and Sub-Zero.
(For TL;DR, read this)
Kris and Noelle are better skilled at dodging projectiles. This doesn't equal to dodging melee attacks at a 0 ft distance. Long-ranged combat doesn't matter because Scorpion is teleporting to their locations (and Sub-Zero can too), ACTs will only work if Kris is going out of their way to use Social Influencing. IceShock doesn't matter because Scorpion teleports out of the AOE, while Sub-Zero blocks it (IceShock is never shown to generate enough AP to two-shot someone of comparable power) and if Sub-Zero can't, the second time IceShock comes, he creates a Forcefield. IceShock is limited by how much TP they have, and I don't see them being able to make Scorpion or Sub-Zero "graze" Kris enough (Since Noelle will absolutely get hit by every attack) to generate enough TP for more than one or two IceShocks. Resistances doesn't matter because what they resist isn't going to be Scorpion's and Sub-Zero's win conditions.
Scorpions and Sub-Zero's win condition is this:
- Knocking out or incapacitating Kris & Noelle
- By having superior combat skill, an Attack Potency difference, and teleportation that Kris and Noelle have no answers for. Kris would be overwhelmed by the 2v1 situation. I mean, look at the scenario this way: Kris has a party member that does not function unless they specifically tell them what to do. Kris will have to focus on using DEFEND to protect themselves against 2 people with better skill, Attack Potency, and can teleport anywhere (That means up above him, behind her, to the right or left of them, etc) Kris will not have enough breath in between protecting themselves and trying to fight back against both Sub-Zero and Scorpion to tell Noelle what to do. Kris is getting knocked out in this situation 10 out of 10 times. Even if Kris does get a chance to tell Noelle to use IceShock (Not to mention that I don't believe Kris would gain enough TP to use IceShock more than twice in the entire fight), Sub-Zero and Scorpion are turning their attention to Noelle and it's the same situation with Kris but even worse and Noelle is knocked out in even less time (Scorpion can even knock out Noelle by himself)
Catbowtie
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Speed Equalization means that Big Shots are also slowed down. Scorpion would see something very visibly charging and teleport out of the way. Sub-Zero just blocks it, or uses a barrier to protect himself. Also, Pirouette and Hypnosis look to be attacking Sub-Zero's and Scorpion's Stamina (That's what being tired means), Sub-Zero can fight while heavily injured (I don't have the scan. See his profile), we don't have a scan for how "heavily injured" in whatever context means, but it goes somewhere. Scorpion has Superhuman Stamina, but no elaboration.
I did mention Sub-Zero can teleport (Weird nitpick, I know. I don't mean anything)
Anyways, if people believe that Kris and Noelle win despite this. Fair is fair.
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I am as blind as a bat.
Eden_Warlock99
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Wow that's a lot lol
A cheat got canonically acknowledged, basically becoming canon, so it became an ability for Kris lol, that's versus debatin!
"A Lightner's attack appears right on top of the enemy's body, it doesn't travel any distance, making it invisible....
And even moving around at great speeds doesn't help avoiding it."
This is the most blatant showing of it, I think.
Edit: Apparently also don't appear in the more serious fights, so yeah
And Susie's Superhuman Stamina, "Fought King for a long amount of time without growing tired, while he was breathing heavily by the end of it. Took a multitude of attacks from King, stating that it will take way more than that to take her down."
Eh, most projectiles in-game are several times faster than Kris themselves and are launched at only like 3-5 meters away,
Yeah, Big Shot Spam, continuously firing 30 or so Big Shoots per second. (All of which can harm Spamton Neo and are gonna be x3 Scorpion and Sub-Zero's speed)
Don't think they can do that;
"A Lightner's attack appears right on top of the enemy's body, it doesn't travel any distance, making it invisible....
And even moving around at great speeds doesn't help avoiding it."
This is the most blatant showing of it, I think.
This really depends on whether we're using her Snowgrave version or nah. That one can make Ice Barriers and the like when defending.
The sparkles appear after the swing, so I don't think they'd be of much help.
Edit: Apparently also don't appear in the more serious fights, so yeah
Noelle's IceShock does one-shot a Bluelight Specil Spamton Neo, who reduced Kris's attacks to be nearly unable to damage him. But that's with the Thorn ring, so eh
Not sure if this is really comparable to Jevil's own Superhuman Stamina, "Able to keep fighting seemingly endlessly against the party... Stated that his body can't die."
And Susie's Superhuman Stamina, "Fought King for a long amount of time without growing tired, while he was breathing heavily by the end of it. Took a multitude of attacks from King, stating that it will take way more than that to take her down."
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ShockingPsychic
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I do think Kris' Immortality is a bit much, especially here, last I checked it was a "possibly", but that seems to have been changed... I do wanna suggest the idea that their Immortality isn't really their own power, but moreso the voice in the game over screen who is almost certainly Gaster. The voice asks if they wanna be revived and then the player can say yes or no
So, as for the match... I guess Sub-Zero can freeze Kris and that should bypass their Immortality? Or maybe Scorpion could restrain them with his chain?
I think giving prior knowledge of the fact they can reset would be fair. At least they'd know what NOT to do then
So, as for the match... I guess Sub-Zero can freeze Kris and that should bypass their Immortality? Or maybe Scorpion could restrain them with his chain?
I think giving prior knowledge of the fact they can reset would be fair. At least they'd know what NOT to do then
Eden_Warlock99
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Would he be able to? Kris has a better resistance than Berdly, who cannot be frozen by IceShocks, and IceShocks can instantly freeze enemies solid.
Catbowtie
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Several times by how much?
Is a 3x speed going to perception blitz them? (Moving so fast that they can't even see the attack) If not, Scorpion teleports out of the way. Scorpion's teleportation doesn't require a gesture, he just does it. Sub-Zero on the other hand...How much is the AP of Big Shot Spam?
Who is the quoted statement from?
Noted.
Okay, so for all intents and purposes it's just a weapon attack who's attack appears at the location of the enemy? I think that'd be dodge-able. At the very least, Scorpion could teleport out of the way.
The one-shot in question was due to Spamton Neo letting his guard down, rather than IceShock straight up being that powerful. That's at least how I interpret hit. In Undertale, it's possible for the player to instantly kill an enemy by making them drop their guard. This is what happened here. Spamton Neo's "Hey, is it cold in here or is it just me?" is conveying that Spamton had no idea that he was about to get attacked (He was even doing the evil villain monologue, LOL) The damage increase was intended to show that Noelle became a stone-cold killer (At least knowing what Toby Fox does in Undertale), I think if he wanted IceShock to be interpreted as being conclusively stronger, he would've done something else to show that IceShock would one-shot Spamton Neo.
Don't know. Their profiles are dog water anyways.
The same thing happens with or without prior knowledge: Scorpion and Sub-Zero incapacitate their opponents. I don't want to keep repeating this, but they do not kill In-Character. Also, Sub-Zero doesn't have a calculation for the temperature of his Ice Manipulation, just that he can "use the touch of his palms to freeze his target, but he may also use his limbs to freeze him." Kris has a higher Lifting Strength than Scorpion (116.22 Tons of Force (Class K) vs 101-102 Tons of Force)
Sub-Zero can freeze people solid too, and can also freeze Frost, who is a Cryomancer herself. It's quantifiable because Cryomancers are...you get the idea. They resist their own powers.
Kris' win conditions are tiring out Sub-Zero and Scorpion, right?
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Kris' Type 8 immortality requires the player. Wouldn't that mean she can't use that here? I'm a bit confused.
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I'm adding a new rule.
RandomGuy2345
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I think I'll vote Sub-Zero and Scorpion FRA. They seem to have more going for them here.
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This and this for example
If they're up close, then yes. As for the Big Shot potency, it's able to one-shot objects that the regular shots normally can't do any damage to.
From another VS thread involving Kris
The thing is, the attack is practically invisible due to being instant the moment Kris swings their weapon. Scorpion would not know this the first time especially if he's deciding to focus on Noelle where Kris will attack him instantly from a distance.
Please be careful when you're comparing Deltarune and Undertale, because while those 2 games have many of the same characters, they are still different continuities with different mechanics. That being said, the Bluelight Specil is an aura that's applied passively for the rest of the battle the moment it's activated. Kris could barely even scratch him (And eventually deal no damage to him at all several hits later) once the Bluelight Specil was activated, and even if Spamton was caught off guard by the sudden cold, his defense isn't really changing. So basically, IceShock can one-shot those who are practically invulnerable to 316 megajoules.
Frost has no resistance to ice manipulation. Plus, you can't just assume they resist their own abilities just because they can use them. For example, just because a mage can shoot fire doesn't mean they literally resist fire.
Catbowtie
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That's aim dodging. In both examples, Kris has more than enough time to move herself out of the way to prevent from being damaged. If it was another Jevil Scan, then leeway would be afforded, but Kris wouldn't scale to that because she's aim dodging.
Big Shot is perception blitzing the duo. Okay. Isn't the charge up for the Big Shot going to be notice-able?
You're right Scorpion would not know, but when he does know, he is closing the gap via Teleportation. I don't see Kris getting more than one ranged melee attack before Scorpion just teleports in his face.
I compared the off-guard kill to Spamton being killed off-guard, but that point is nulI now. I commented that because it is possible that Toby Fox just used the same thing in Deltarune as he did Undertale to convey whatever narrative he was intending (Again, this is null)
Anyways, holy ****! What is that? I did some quick calculations, and Sub-Zero and Kuai Lang is 376.56 megajoules. In order for Noelle to one shot with IceShock, she has to have a 8x AP difference (I got it from another versus battle user. Take it with a grain of salt)
(Jackof_noTrades)
Noelle's IceShock has to be 2528 megajoules of force in order for her to one shot Spamton, and that's with assuming that Spamton isn't upscaling Durability. Since Spamton is upscaling his Durability, Noelle's IceShock is vaguely above 2528 megajoules.
What.
The problem with your mage shooting fire example is that it circumvented by the fact that Cryomancer's ice literally is on their bare skin. Whereas the mage would never touch the fire they are shooting, and wouldn't get Fire Resistance, a mage who has fire come from their body would absolutely get Resistance (In most cases, anyways) In multiple examples, ice is shown to come from the Cryomancer's body. I didn't assume they can resist their own abilities because they can use them. I would never say that (Off the top of my head) that Kris resists statistics reduction or that Noelle resists sleep manipulation because they were never shown to be effected by, and then shrug off their own abilities. Sub-Zero's arms turn cold enough to make ice and yet he shrugs it off because it doesn't effect him. Frost does the same with her Cryomancy. That is Resistance.
But the whole ice resistance argument is void because this is not the place for that. A Content Revision Thread has to be made. I don't want to derail this Thread with arguing about Frost's supposed-to-have Ice Resistance.
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Like I said, these are only examples. These are merely just to demonstrate the speeds the projectiles are going at. There might be faster attacks I might not remember since it's been a hot minute since I've played Deltarune.
That is for Kris' SOUL, however it usually remains within their body at all costs and it's merely for graphic effects. Even then, since Kris is going to spam it anyways, they just need to do so multiple times to the point of overwhelming the ninjas to a point where dodging is difficult even with teleportation.
And Kris will just move away and keep their distance. Many enemies have gone close up to Kris themselves and it's no big deal for Kris as they will dodge them.
We don't use one-shot multipliers to scale AP through one-shotting. That's just a VS thread thing. Nonetheless, the scaling chain would still make it so that IceShock is at least as strong as the ninjas.
What I mean is that they need to get hit by the coldest ice in order to gain resistance. In that case, why don't you go make a CRT?
Eden_Warlock99
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Should be noted that this is only with the Thorn Ring, which is Optional Equipment and would basically keep Noelle at only 1/3 of her Max HP
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