Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 5: Kris and Noelle VS Sub-Zero and Scorpion (2-7-0)

[Catbowtie]

That is for Kris' SOUL, however it usually remains within their body at all costs and it's merely for graphic effects. Even then, since Kris is going to spam it anyways, they just need to do so multiple times to the point of overwhelming the ninjas to a point where dodging is difficult even with teleportation.

It would never be difficult for Scorpion to dodge Kris' Big Shots the second time around. In the Scan for Big Shot, Kris is facing one direction while firing, being able to move only left or right. Scorpion just teleports behind Kris. Can Kris do a 180 and keep firing Big Shots before Scorpion is already attacking him?

And Kris will just move away and keep their distance. Many enemies have gone close up to Kris themselves and it's no big deal for Kris as they will dodge them.

Those enemies have gotten close to Kris without needing teleportation. How is Kris going to "keep their distance" against someone who teleports? Moving away doesn't mean anything because Sub-Zero and Scorpion move at the exact same speed as Kris. Even if we were generous, and say that Kris can maintain the 30 meter gap through speed alone, teleportation makes it null because Scorpion is going from 30 meters to however many meters instantly. There is no amount of running or walking a person can do to keep their distance against a person who can make a 30 meter distance a 20 meter distance, then a 10, then a 0 (Scorpion can actually travel 30 meters to 0 meters instantly)

We don't use one-shot multipliers to scale AP through one-shotting. That's just a VS thread thing. Nonetheless, the scaling chain would still make it so that IceShock is at least as strong as the ninjas.

This shouldn't be a problem then. The ninjas are able to deal with people with comparable AP to them and beat them through skill. Noelle being the way she is would just get pulled in by Scorpion's Spear or Scorpion teleports to her and knocks her out.

What I mean is that they need to get hit by the coldest ice in order to gain resistance. In that case, why don't you go make a CRT?

That's not how Resistance works.

I'm not going to come before the council and get burned alive for my transgressions (Accidentally not doing something correctly)

Like I said, these are only examples. These are merely just to demonstrate the speeds the projectiles are going at. There might be faster attacks I might not remember since it's been a hot minute since I've played Deltarune.

Can you show me projectiles that are conclusively going faster than Kris that aren't being aim dodged? Saying "Kris can dodge projectiles faster than her" and not showing me examples makes it hard for me to understand what it looks like. I'm not challenging Kris' experience in Danmaku dodging, but I am challenging the notion of "Kris is reacting to projectiles faster than her"


Edit: I have looked at the Projectile Dodging feats and I was wrong. I edited it accordingly. Ignore the strike-through text.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Bump

 

[Cimafranca133]

Bump

 

[Shadowslash125]

Really hard to decide who to vote, but at the same time, I think pretty much everyone is since this thread is kinda dead for a while.

 

[Psychomaster35]

It would never be difficult for Scorpion to dodge Kris' Big Shots the second time around. In the Scan for Big Shot, Kris is facing one direction while firing, being able to move only left or right. Scorpion just teleports behind Kris. Can Kris do a 180 and keep firing Big Shots before Scorpion is already attacking him?

Why wouldn't they? Them only being able to fire in one direction while being incapable of turning is a game mechanic especially since Spamton NEO was already in front of them.

Those enemies have gotten close to Kris without needing teleportation. How is Kris going to "keep their distance" against someone who teleports? Moving away doesn't mean anything because Sub-Zero and Scorpion move at the exact same speed as Kris. Even if we were generous, and say that Kris can maintain the 30 meter gap through speed alone, teleportation makes it null because Scorpion is going from 30 meters to however many meters instantly. There is no amount of running or walking a person can do to keep their distance against a person who can make a 30 meter distance a 20 meter distance, then a 10, then a 0 (Scorpion can actually travel 30 meters to 0 meters instantly)

Hello? Jevil?

This shouldn't be a problem then. The ninjas are able to deal with people with comparable AP to them and beat them through skill. Noelle being the way she is would just get pulled in by Scorpion's Spear or Scorpion teleports to her and knocks her out.

Except Scorpion's spear is only fired in a straight line that would make it feel very easy for both Kris and Noelle to dodge. As a matter of fact, all of Scorpion and Sub-Zero's projectiles are just fired in simple straight lines which isn't anything new to Kris and Noelle.

That's not how Resistance works.

I'm not going to come before the council and get burned alive for my transgressions (Accidentally not doing something correctly)

I should also note that Kris and Noelle's resistance to ice manipulation is layered considering how regular enemies are easily vulnerable to Noelle's IceShock, whereas Berdly, who is vulnerable to ice, wasn't at all affected from getting frozen by IceShock but could still get frozen by Snowgrave. Hence, Kris and Noelle upscale from Berdly's ice resistance through not being stated to be weak to ice.

Can you show me projectiles that are conclusively going faster than Kris that aren't being aim dodged?

Kris and Noelle are always going to be on the move to avoid projectiles (Including ones they may not expect to come), so it's safe to say that they can always dodge them [Not to mention that they can halve their own speed to graze so the attacks to them are essentially moving twice as fast to their perspective]. And given how Scorpion and Sub-Zero are close-ranged fighters most of the time, all they are doing is giving more and more TP to Kris and Noelle from failing to hit them.

Also, Kris can still do ACTs to distract them in some way so they can drop their guard or even get them to stop fighting.

 

[Cimafranca133]

Bump

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I think we should ask some people to vote here, now that both sides had made their points.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Just for the record, for those who want to cut to the chase on who wins:

Kris & Noelle Advantages

• Better at dodging, both in close range and in long range, especially against attacks faster than them by at least 2x
• Better long-ranged combat
• Can heal while Scorpion & Sub-Zero can't
• Both resist Sub-Zero's ice
• Kris resists Scorpion's hellfire
• Scorpion & Sub-Zero have no counter to Sleep Mist
• Kris can potentially lower Scorpion & Sub-Zero's stats with ACTs and even boost the defense of themselves and Noelle to make themselves practically equal to Scorpion & Sub-Zero's striking strength

Scorpion & Sub-Zero Advantages

• Slightly stronger and more durable
• Better close-ranged combat
• More experienced
• Sub-Zero resists Noelle's ice

 

[EnderLord8]

Well I ended up here by chance and didn't read it all, but what can ninjas do about Kris' type 8 immortality through the player?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well I ended up here by chance and didn't read it all, but what can ninjas do about Kris' type 8 immortality through the player?

It was restricted, they only need to take Kris and Noelle down once

 

[Psychomaster35]

Well I ended up here by chance and didn't read it all, but what can ninjas do about Kris' type 8 immortality through the player?

Knock them out/Incapacitate them. That is, if they can touch Kris and Noelle, which will prove difficult because they're both very mobile and prone to dodging.

 

[Catbowtie]

Why wouldn't they? Them only being able to fire in one direction while being incapable of turning is a game mechanic especially since Spamton NEO was already in front of them.

Kris is shown not to be able to turn when she uses Big Shots, so that's his limitation.

Hello? Jevil?

Doesn't prove anything. Explain to me how Kris is able to keep her distance against someone who can turn 30 meters into 0 meters with one teleport, and who is equal to speed in her. Ironically, if someone looks at the Jevil fights, they can see that Jevil is actually able to teleport to Kris and attack him with projectiles. Just that Jevil chooses(?) to shoot projectiles. I don't know what the box is supposed to represent in Deltarune, but I'll assume is the representation that the projectiles are actually able to harm Kris. Jevil teleporting outside of the box is just him deciding to teleport all around Kris, rather than Kris being able to keep his distance against Jevil (That's what I think anyways)

Except Scorpion's spear is only fired in a straight line that would make it feel very easy for both Kris and Noelle to dodge. As a matter of fact, all of Scorpion and Sub-Zero's projectiles are just fired in simple straight lines which isn't anything new to Kris and Noelle.

Like I said before, Spear doesn't work against Kris, that's what I said in my very first post. You're just repeating what I said in multiple other posts. However, Noelle is green in combat. Even if Noelle has the skills to dodge, In-Character, she is reliant on Kris for her to do anything.

I should also note that Kris and Noelle's resistance to ice manipulation is layered considering how regular enemies are easily vulnerable to Noelle's IceShock, whereas Berdly, who is vulnerable to ice, wasn't at all affected from getting frozen by IceShock but could still get frozen by Snowgrave. Hence, Kris and Noelle upscale from Berdly's ice resistance through not being stated to be weak to ice.

Make a Content Revision Thread for it. Do you just mean they're more resistant to ice manipulation than others?

Kris and Noelle are always going to be on the move to avoid projectiles (Including ones they may not expect to come), so it's safe to say that they can always dodge them [Not to mention that they can halve their own speed to graze so the attacks to them are essentially moving twice as fast to their perspective]. And given how Scorpion and Sub-Zero are close-ranged fighters most of the time, all they are doing is giving more and more TP to Kris and Noelle from failing to hit them.

Also, Kris can still do ACTs to distract them in some way so they can drop their guard or even get them to stop fighting.

Are you talking about Slow Soul Mode? That's a game feature, and it isn't on their profile. Scorpion and Sub-Zero are going to hitting Kris more often than not. Danmaku dodging =/= dodging melee.


Is Kris' ACTs just him using Social Influencing? Sub-Zero and Scorpion wouldn't drop their guards. Even when talking to Cryax, they were still in their battle stances.

Just for the record, for those who want to cut to the chase on who wins:

Kris & Noelle Advantages

• Better at dodging, both in close range and in long range, especially against attacks faster than them by at least 2x
• Better long-ranged combat
• Can heal while Scorpion & Sub-Zero can't
• Both resist Sub-Zero's ice
• Kris resists Scorpion's hellfire
• Scorpion & Sub-Zero have no counter to Sleep Mist
• Kris can potentially lower Scorpion & Sub-Zero's stats with ACTs and even boost the defense of themselves and Noelle to make themselves practically equal to Scorpion & Sub-Zero's striking strength

Scorpion & Sub-Zero Advantages

• Slightly stronger and more durable
• Better close-ranged combat
• More experienced
• Sub-Zero resists Noelle's ice

Let me do the win conditions brother (Genuine and not sarcastic)

 

[Catbowtie]

That is, if they can touch Kris and Noelle, which will prove difficult because they're both very mobile and prone to dodging.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero can teleport.

 

[EnderLord8]

It was restricted, they only need to take Kris and Noelle down once

Oh sorry then, I can't see exactly what is restricted here... Is there anything else that is restricted?

 

[EnderLord8]

Knock them out/Incapacitate them. That is, if they can touch Kris and Noelle, which will prove difficult because they're both very mobile and prone to dodging.

I mean, the player is a separate entity, it's not like they can knock him out

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Kris is shown not to be able to turn when she uses Big Shots, so that's his limitation.

I don't see why this would be the case? Yes, Kris is always facing to the right against Spamton, but like that's cause lad is attacking from that direction?
Why wouldn't the SOUL flip with Kris lol

Also ye I agree that Scorpion's teleportation is gonna be way more troublesome for Kris than Jevil's, but they can still probably counter it with Yellow Mode

 

[Catbowtie]

Scorpion & Sub-Zero advantages:

Everything that Psychomaster said plus:

• Teleportation (Can dodge out of most attacks that Kris and Noelle do against them, including IceShock, Sleep Mist, and Big Shots)
  

Rebuttals against the win conditions for Kris and Noelle (Rebuttals going from top to down):

• Better at dodging, both in close range and in long range, especially against attacks faster than them by at least 2x
• Better long-ranged combat*
• Can heal while Scorpion & Sub-Zero can't*
• Both resist Sub-Zero's ice*
• Kris resists Scorpion's hellfire*
• Scorpion & Sub-Zero have no counter to Sleep Mist*
• Kris can potentially lower Scorpion & Sub-Zero's stats with ACTs and even boost the defense of themselves and Noelle to make themselves practically equal to Scorpion & Sub-Zero's striking strength*

1. Long-ranged combat doesn't matter because Scorpion and Sub-Zero teleports to them.

2. Sub-Zero and Scorpion uses pressure points to stun then knock them out again.

3. This doesn't improve Kris' and Noelle's chances of winning because Sub-Zero does close-quarters-combat with his fists. It helps resist them being frozen immediately but Sub-Zero is still dogging them with close-quarters-combat.

3. Scorpion's hellfire isn't a win condition for Scorpion. Resisting it doesn't do anything.

4. Scorpion teleports out of Sleep Mist. Sub-Zero makes a forcefield or just blocks it with Ice Manipulation

5. Scorpion and Sub-Zero can beat people equal to their AP with skill. This doesn't increase their chances of winning.

 

[Catbowtie]

I don't see why this would be the case? Yes, Kris is always facing to the right against Spamton, but like that's cause lad is attacking from that direction?
Why wouldn't the SOUL flip with Kris lol

I mean, I wouldn't assume Kris can turn 180 with her Big Shots. Not to say that SOUL wouldn't flip with Kris, just that because she didn't show that she could, she can't.

Also ye I agree that Scorpion's teleportation is gonna be way more troublesome for Kris than Jevil's, but they can still probably counter it with Yellow Mode

Sub-Zero blocks Yellow Mode with Ice Manipulation the second time around.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Kris is shown not to be able to turn when she uses Big Shots, so that's his limitation.

Like I said, them not turning is the result of game mechanics.

Doesn't prove anything. Explain to me how Kris is able to keep her distance against someone who can turn 30 meters into 0 meters with one teleport, and who is equal to speed in her. Ironically, if someone looks at the Jevil fights, they can see that Jevil is actually able to teleport to Kris and attack him with projectiles. Just that Jevil chooses(?) to shoot projectiles. I don't know what the box is supposed to represent in Deltarune, but I'll assume is the representation that the projectiles are actually able to harm Kris. Jevil teleporting outside of the box is just him deciding to teleport all around Kris, rather than Kris being able to keep his distance against Jevil (That's what I think anyways)

Yes it does, you're just ignoring the point. Jevil teleports all over the place near Kris at fast speeds and Kris is still able to dodge his attacks. As such, teleportation isn't at all a problem for them. Now stop being this resilient.

Like I said before, Spear doesn't work against Kris, that's what I said in my very first post. You're just repeating what I said in multiple other posts. However, Noelle is green in combat. Even if Noelle has the skills to dodge, In-Character, she is reliant on Kris for her to do anything

You know the player also controls Noelle, right? As such, whatever attacks they dodged while controlling Kris, Noelle also applies.

Make a Content Revision Thread for it. Do you just mean they're more resistant to ice manipulation than others?

Hypocritically, I told you the same exact thing to go make a CRT for Frost having supposed ice resistance. And yes, Kris and Noelle are much more resistant to ice than Berdly. More specifically, up to Snowgrave's coldness since Berdly could get frozen by that due to being stated to be weak to ice, yet Kris and Noelle lack this weakness and should therefore not be affected.

Are you talking about Slow Soul Mode? That's a game feature, and it isn't on their profile. Scorpion and Sub-Zero are going to hitting Kris more often than not. Danmaku dodging =/= dodging melee.


Is Kris' ACTs just him using Social Influencing? Sub-Zero and Scorpion wouldn't drop their guards. Even when talking to Cryax, they were still in their battle stances.

It's not just a game feature, but it's straight up stated to be a canon mechanic. Also, I disagree with what you say about dodging types, as the bullets Kris dodges are pretty much the same size as Scorpion & Sub-Zero's punches and kicks. Also, checking gameplay, Scorpion will not always teleport to fight.

And looking at that clip, that's because they were making an exchange about Kronika first shortly before their fight. It is NOT Cyrax telling either of the two to drop their guards in some way. Meanwhile, Kris has been used to fighting against characters who are bloodthirsty to kill them like Jevil and King and they can still be affected by their ACTs.

Let me do the win conditions brother (Genuine and not sarcastic)

I already did, rookie. And they are as genuine as they get.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Hypocritically, I told you the same exact thing to go make a CRT for Frost having supposed ice resistance. And yes, Kris and Noelle are much more resistant to ice than Berdly. More specifically, up to Snowgrave's coldness since Berdly could get frozen by that due to being stated to be weak to ice, yet Kris and Noelle lack this weakness and should therefore not be affected.

Eh, being more resistant than Berdly doesn't necessarily mean they can take a Snowgrave? It's a "Fatal" spell, afterall (And 8-C)

 

[TheGatememer]

Just saying, I doubt either Scorpion, and especially Sub-Zero could avoid Sleep Mist that easily. The mist literally spawns on them, so ice walls/forcefields won't do anything, and Scorpion would have to basically instantly teleport out of the way to even stand a shot at avoiding it.

 

[Psychomaster35]

1. Long-ranged combat doesn't matter because Scorpion and Sub-Zero teleports to them.

But it should still matter as Kris will be prone to keeping their distance even against teleporting opponents, so it's really the matter of the ninjas trying to hit them.

2. Sub-Zero and Scorpion uses pressure points to stun then knock them out again.

See point above

3. This doesn't improve Kris' and Noelle's chances of winning because Sub-Zero does close-quarters-combat with his fists. It helps resist them being frozen immediately but Sub-Zero is still dogging them with close-quarters-combat.

Don't think I haven't seen those gameplay videos. They're all prone to getting hit from being directly close up.

3. Scorpion's hellfire isn't a win condition for Scorpion. Resisting it doesn't do anything.

I know it isn't the only one. I'm just knocking one winning condition off of him to Kris.

4. Scorpion teleports out of Sleep Mist. Sub-Zero makes a forcefield or just blocks it with Ice Manipulation

Yeah, no. I doubt that. I've seen all of those spaces the kombatants fight in and they are always prone to fighting in arenas no bigger than 10 meters.

5. Scorpion and Sub-Zero can beat people equal to their AP with skill. This doesn't increase their chances of winning.

Yes it does, it literally closes the gap to the point of turning this into a skill battle so Kris and Noelle can at least take less damage.

 

[Catbowtie]

Like I said, them not turning is the result of game mechanics.

Can you prove that they are game mechanics?

Yes it does, you're just ignoring the point. Jevil teleports all over the place near Kris at fast speeds and Kris is still able to dodge his attacks. As such, teleportation isn't at all a problem for them. Now stop being this resilient.

Kris is able to dodge his Danmaku, yes, but that is different from someone teleporting right in Kris' face. Your word choice is telling too: "Near"? Scorpion is teleport within striking distance to Kris. If Scorpion was using teleportation the same way, I'd understand, but Scorpion simply isn't. I will never stop. I will never stop being resilient. I will never stop being hard-headed. I must grind until the very end (Joking)

You know the player also controls Noelle, right? As such, whatever attacks they dodged while controlling Kris, Noelle also applies.

This is Kris and Noelle acting by themselves. The Player doesn't have any influence over them (Unless I'm just mistaken? How does it even work? I feel like The Player being able to just plug a controller into Kris and Noelle makes it out as though Kris and Noelle are basically just Bloodlusted and would just do the most optimal thing to win, despite Kris and Noelle not knowing what is the most optimal way to win)

Hypocritically, I told you the same exact thing to go make a CRT for Frost having supposed ice resistance. And yes, Kris and Noelle are much more resistant to ice than Berdly. More specifically, up to Snowgrave's coldness since Berdly could get frozen by that due to being stated to be weak to ice, yet Kris and Noelle lack this weakness and should therefore not be affected.

I said that I wasn't going to mention Frost's Ice Resistance since it isn't on her profile. Make a Content Revision Thread.

It's not just a game feature, but it's straight up stated to be a canon mechanic. Also, I disagree with what you say about dodging types, as the bullets Kris dodges are pretty much the same size as Scorpion & Sub-Zero's punches and kicks. Also, checking gameplay, Scorpion will not always teleport to fight.

And looking at that clip, that's because they were making an exchange about Kronika first shortly before their fight. It is NOT Cyrax telling either of the two to drop their guards in some way. Meanwhile, Kris has been used to fighting against characters who are bloodthirsty to kill them like Jevil and King and they can still be affected by their ACTs.

Let me see the statement. Also, the bullets being the same size as Scorpion's & Sub-Zero's punches and kicks doesn't really do anything, because they're aiming their punches. The bullets and the duo's hands being the same size doesn't do anything because they're not equivalent. What gameplay are you looking at? Scorpion starts with teleportation, or will eventually use it.


Also, I concede on the Kris' ACTs point.

I already did. And they are as genuine as they get.

Bueno

But it should still matter as Kris will be prone to keeping their distance even against teleporting opponents, so it's really the matter of the ninjas trying to hit them.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are teleporting to Kris' location. That is, 30 meters to 0 meters instantly. How is Kris keeping his distance against this? Their usage of teleportation is completely different from Jevil's.

See point above

Don't think I haven't seen those gameplay videos. They're all prone to getting hit from being directly close up.

What gameplay videos are you talking about? Are you talking about the story itself? Or are you talking about PVP? I don't think I need to explain why PVP is not canon.

I know it isn't the only one. I'm just knocking one winning condition off of him to Kris.

Fair enough? Scorpion doesn't use Hellfire to win, just close-quarters-combat and sword fighting.

Yeah, no. I doubt that. I've seen all of those spaces the kombatants fight in and they are always prone to fighting in arenas no bigger than 10 meters.

What I'm showing you is canon. You pulling out PVP gameplay and saying "This is canon" simply isn't true. The kombatants fighting in 10 meter areas is because it's close-quarters-combat. You don't need a huge area to fight.

I can search for videos of Kris and Noelle getting hit by every single projectile, and say that their skill isn't that extensive, but it doesn't mean it's canon. All we know that is canon that Kris and friends are able to fight people with Danmaku and win. That is it. That doesn't mean that they dodge every single one of the Danmaku, or that they do a hitless any% run, or that they immediately know how to win in every scenario.

Yes it does, it literally closes the gap to the point of turning this into a skill battle so Kris and Noelle can at least take less damage.

I mean, yea? I have nothing in particular to say to this. You just reiterated my point.


And if you're going to introduce gameplay videos of Scorpion and Sub-Zero, then Kris and Noelle also has to deal with this:

Spoiler: Laundry List of Scorpion's abilities and special moves

Scorpion

• Illusion Creation: A cool technique that he can do involves conjuring mirror images of himself to fool his opponents. These images can perform fake attacks that are hard to see through with the naked eye. They can also act as solid clones to help restrain his enemies.[1][2]

• Intangibility: Scorpion's ability to reveal his skull when unmasked is further expanded in MK11 where he can reveal his other bones and even his skeleton when using his powers, especially his intangibility. With it, he can phase through his enemies while simultaneously incinerating them on contact for both offense and defense.

• Damage Boost: Scorpion can imbue his limbs and weapons with his hellfire, adding more damage to his attacks. His weapons will glow red hot and his attacks can ignite his enemies with hellfire.

Scorpion's teleportation can hurt Kris and Noelle too (Even without using gameplay videos)

• Hell Port: Scorpion teleports behind the opponent to strike them from behind with different attacks: a punch, a kick, and even a spear stab. Can be performed while airborne.
  • Scorpion can cancel the attack, causing him to perform the teleport only. He can then choose any attack to perform afterwards.
  • Scorpion can perform an additional attack such as a flip kick, uppercut or an upward sword slash.
  • For increased mobility, Scorpion can teleport in different directions rather than behind, allowing for a quick escape or advance.
  • To fool the opponent, he can create an illusion of him being poised to strike, covering his teleport. This can throw off one's guard if one is not careful.

(Scorpion gets Intangibility from Demon Dash)

• Demon Dash: Scorpion reveals his burning skeleton and dashes through the opponent. He lifts them by the neck and burns them in his grasp before blasting them away with a burst of hellfire.
  • The attack can be enhanced, causing him to summon hellfire below the opponent before blasting them away.

• Scorpion stabs his kunai into the opponent's lower jaw and kicks them to the air. He grips the chain to stop it while it's airborne, giving the opponent a whiplash before falling to the ground.
• Scorpion grabs the opponent and slashes their neck and abdomen with his kunai. Afterwards, he launches them away with a flaming uppercut.
• Scorpion grabs the opponent and turns them around with their back facing him. He plunges his kunai into their shoulder and abdomen before he rips away the kunai while slicing their back with his katana at the same time.
• Scorpion holds the opponent in a standing armlock and breaks their knee with a flaming kick. He teleports away, leaving a clone in his place, and sends them flying with a teleport kick.

Spoiler: Laundry List of Sub-Zero's abilities and special moves

• Defensive Abilities: In gameplay, Sub-Zero is one of the few characters who has a defensive playstyle, even if he only retains an aspect of that in later games. His defense oriented styles are presented very well outside of gameplay and in the story mode, demonstrated through the techniques below.
  • His Ice Clone move is derived from the fictional ninjutsu technique of replacing one's body with an object to avoid attacks. Sub-Zero uses his cryomancy to perform this by creating an ice clone in his place and moving out of it in response to an incoming attack. This move also improves his trapping abilities by utilizing this clone technique as a stationary trap that freezes anyone who comes into contact with it, often done by directing his foes towards it with his actions.
  • He also possesses a similar move called Arctic Trap where he creates an orb of floating ice that also freezes anyone who touches it. Unlike Ice Clone, this trap is created in front of him rather than in his place.
  • He can also protect himself from incoming attacks with ice constructs. Ranging from a handheld shield, full body ice armor, large mounted shields, ice clones, and bubble shields that protect him from nearly every angle, Sub-Zero has a myriad of ways to fend off incoming attacks.

• Axe Swipe: While recovering from a knockdown/successfully blocking an attack, Sub-Zero counters by swinging up his ice axe.

• Ice Klone: Sub-Zero hops out and leaves an ice clone in his place that will freeze anyone who touches it. It can also be performed after an attack, which will cause the clone to copy the previous pose of the attack Sub-Zero was in, slightly changing its effective area.

• Ground Ice Sub-Zero freezes the floor beneath him/the opponent, trapping anyone caught in the ice.

• Frozen Aura: Sub-Zero performs a short stance, creating a layer of ice on his body that acts as armor and shields him from damage. While the armor is active, several of his moves are modified.

• Barrier of Frost: Sub-Zero crouches and brings up an ice shield in front of him, blocking projectiles and freezing attackers who stand too close.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Scorpion starts with teleportation, or will eventually use it.

Wow, lad sure does spam it.

 

[Catbowtie]

The problem with introducing gameplay videos is that we now have to debate whether or not it's an accurate representation of the combatant's abilities. On top of it not being canon, it yields some pretty wild results if we do consider them. Assuming theoretical peak versions of Sub-Zero & Scorpion and Kris & Noelle, Scorpion and Sub-Zero would have skill-stomped every canonical opponent without being damaged or hit once. While Kris and Noelle would've been hitless in every single fight they've ever had, ever. You see how that's a problem? At that point, we're just left with our biases and opinion, saying things like "Sub-Zero and Scorpion would never get hit by Kris and Noelle because they've never been hit in their gameplay" or "Kris and Noelle dodges every single attack Sub-Zero and Scorpion does because they've dodged every single projectile in Deltarune" Like, it's just brick-walling. Or, on the flip side, Sub-Zero and Scorpion are so lame that they barely beat every single canonical by a sliver of their health, or Kris and Noelle are so lame that their only saving grace is being able to LOAD and SAVE.

There's no objective, correct interpretation to their gameplay because it has wild results (and it's straight up not canon. The gameplay is merely a representation of the battle both combatants are in, not the actual, objective, showing of their abilities) The only thing I'm considering is this: Kris and Noelle are able to beat people that have Danmaku through the use of various abilities, where each way they decide to win is completely determinate on the opponent they are facing. This makes it hard to determine what Kris and Noelle would do In-Character because The Player is controlling them (Which shouldn't be allowed, because The Player is able to fumble the ball and make Kris and Noelle lose, or skill-stomp Scorpion and Sub-Zero) I mean seriously, what is the sequence of events that Kris and Noelle would do? What do they start with? (Psychomaster says they start with ACT, but how canonical is that?) At what point would Kris use Big Shots? Does Kris use Social Influencing or does she just attack until Sub-Zero and Scorpion are dead? Yes, Kris and Noelle sees them as enemies that can cause any amount of harm, but when the Chaos King was in supposedly the same situation, Kris and friends opted to try to Social Influence him, but at the same time, it can also be true that they just attack him until he's dead. What does a person even do when considering this? This also brings up the problem of Versus Battles Members just plugging a controller into Kris and friends and saying "They'd do this to win" because we have so little information on how Kris acts to determine what they would do In-Character, so we just assume they'd to the most flawless, optimal thing to win. I'm sorry, I just think it's a little bit weird that Kris and friends can make a beeline for their win conditions while also not being surprised about anything Sub-Zero and Scorpion does. I mean, look at the following example:

• I propose that Scorpion and Sub-Zero are able to beat Kris and Noelle because of teleportation, the skill difference, and being able to use their AP effectively
  
  
• Psychomaster says that Kris and friends are able to dodge Danmaku (Implying that every single Danmaku they went up against, they've dodged) and equates that to Scorpion and Sub-Zero's melee attacks, saying that the bullets they've dodged is the same size as Scorpion's and Sub-Zero's fights, so they should be able to dodge them.

This is fine. I have little problems with this (I do not believe Kris and Noelle would dodge Sub-Zero and Scorpion's fists LOL), however...

• I say that Noelle's Standard Tactics would be the duo's downfall
  
  
• Psychomaster says that it doesn't matter because The Player removes this weakness.
  
  
  
• Again, I say that Noelle's inexperience in combat would be the duo's downfall
  
  
• Psychomaster says that they'd just use Sleep Mist, even though Noelle needs Kris to tell them to use it, and The Player isn't around to do that for Noelle
  
  
  
• I say that Kris would be overwhelmed by the skill difference and teleportation
  
  
• Psychomaster literally just says the equivalent of "Kris deals with it."
  
  
  
• People mention Kris' Big Shots, but how are we supposed to know how much Kris uses it?

I do believe that Kris would use ACTs once Sub-Zero and/or Scorpion punches him in the face with an AP difference, most likely immediately after, but I don't like the implication that Kris would just spam it. I do believe that Noelle would use IceShock, but I think it's unlikely that she'd continue considering that Sub-Zero No-Sells and Scorpion teleports out of the way. I don't think that she'd continue to use IceShock for whatever amount of times after Sub-Zero and Scorpion dodge it for the same time. Not to say that Noelle would never hit it, as she'd definitely hit it the first time she uses IceShock, but Scorpion and Sub-Zero would literally turn to and beat Noelle up because they knew that her IceShocks hurt. At this point, I'm just repeating the same things I said all the way back in the first post of the Thread.


Am I just being crazy, or stupid or something? Is this just me?

 

[Shadowslash125]

Since I'm on mobile and outside atm, I can't give too much of my input for the large walls of text everyone is sending out but if someone is having their opposition adhere to gameplay feats while their characters don't need to do so, I smell hypocrisy.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ok I'm biting the bullet.
Ninja Duo FRA

 

[TheGatememer]

Before I vote, I will ask if Scorpion has any other showings of teleport spam, preferably against a single opponent? I mostly ask this, since in the context of the video, he seems to be using it as a way of taking out a group of opponents, as opposed to say, pulling a Jevil and overwhelming a single target.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is Kris and Noelle acting by themselves. The Player doesn't have any influence over them (Unless I'm just mistaken? How does it even work? I feel like The Player being able to just plug a controller into Kris and Noelle makes it out as though Kris and Noelle are basically just Bloodlusted and would just do the most optimal thing to win, despite Kris and Noelle not knowing what is the most optimal way to win)

Regarding this, Kris is largely under the Player's control, with their degree of control mostly being limited to reinterpreting the Player's commands. (They did leap in to save Susie without the Player's input once, but that's really a one-time occurrence, and they usually need to remove their SOUL to break loose)
Noelle seems to be more influenced than controlled, since she can just refuse the Player's commands,
But in combat, the Player basically has full control over the "dodging" aspect at least, even with Susie who the Player can't conventionally control the actions of

 

[Catbowtie]

Before I vote, I will ask if Scorpion has any other showings of teleport spam, preferably against a single opponent? I mostly ask this, since in the context of the video, he seems to be using it as a way of taking out a group of opponents, as opposed to say, pulling a Jevil and overwhelming a single target.

He won't use teleportation spam on individuals, but he will incorporate it into his fighting when he gets the chance (even doing so to try to get an advantage), Scorpion would sword-fight Kris, then teleport right behind them. I used Scorpion vs Lin Kuei cyborgs fight because Kris and Noelle are fighting together, which would influence how he decides to use teleportation. That's why I said he'd just start with teleportation, because Kris and Noelle are fighting together.

In any other case, if it was two 1v1s (Meaning Kris vs Scoropion and Sub-Zero vs Noelle, or however they decide to fight), then Scorpion would do sword-fighting while using teleportation.

Regarding this, Kris is largely under the Player's control, with their degree of control mostly being limited to reinterpreting the Player's commands. (They did leap in to save Susie without the Player's input once, but that's really a one-time occurrence, and they usually need to remove their SOUL to break loose)
Noelle seems to be more influenced than controlled, since she can just refuse the Player's commands,
But in combat, the Player basically has full control over the "dodging" aspect at least, even with Susie who the Player can't conventionally control the actions of

that makes it even harder to determine who wins because The Player's Intelligence is Unknown.

Intelligence: Unknown

The same problem that applies to Kris applies here: All we know is that The Player can dodge for Kris, but not how much damage The Player can avoid (I don't want to be annoying, but again, for all we know The Player is getting hit by every single Danmaku) In any case, Kris' experience in Danmaku dodging should go to The Player, rather than themselves. Kris shouldn't get experience from someone else controlling their actions.

Possession (Whoever is the vessel for their SOUL is forced to do as they command, but they can cause hesitation if heavily opposed to what they are being forced to do[4])

Essentially, it's Kris, Noelle, and The Player, against Sub-Zero and Scorpion. Alright. Are we saying that The Player is limited to only controlling dodging for Kris? Or are they controlling the entirety of Kris' actions, as well as influencing Noelle? The same problems will still apply. We don't know how likely it is for The Player to do one thing over another. They can choose to try to tire out Sub-Zero and Scorpion, or they can just keep trying to attack them until the ninja duo are dead. Hell, they could even just LOAD and SAVE spam until they figure out everything Scorpion and Sub-Zero can do.

 

[Psychomaster35]

that makes it even harder to determine who wins because The Player's Intelligence is Unknown.

The Player's intelligence is actually dependent on who's playing the game (For the sake of this, let's say it's an expert player or a composite of every player who's played the game). Also, now that you bring up the Player, they're essentially the same one who played Undertale, which means the attacks they have experience dodging in that game also scales to Kris since the Player's controlled both them and Frisk. That being said, there are fast attackers like Sans and Asriel that they can dodge while controlling Frisk.

 

[Stillwinston]

The MK Ninjas fra

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Eh, dodging sans is mostly memorizing his attacks through SAVEs and LOADs rather than just pure danmaku dodging skill,
Think Photoshop Flowey is a better example cause if you die over 3 times, Flowey accuses you of dying on purpose, so I think that puts a decent baseline for their skill

 

[TheGatememer]

Eh, screw it, MK duo FRA

 

[Bruhtelho]

leaning towards Kris and Noelle FRA

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Imma be a contrarian and vote Incon

 

[AThe1412]

Fire and Ice FRA.

 

[Catbowtie]

Let me count the votes and make it easier for Cimafranca to add the votes.


Kris & Noelle: @Psychomaster35, @Bruhtelho (Said they're leaning to Kris and Noelle FRA, it's vague for me but I decided to add their vote just in case),


Sub-Zero & Scorpion: Me (@Catbowtie), @RandomGuy2345, @Shadowslash125, @Stillwinston, @AThe1412, @TheGatememer, @koopa3144


Inconclusive: @Adem_Warlock69


(Unedited) Totals out to: 2-6-1

(Edited to add Koopa's vote): 2-7-1

I swear there was a third vote for Kris and Noelle but I can't find it.

Edit: There isn't. It's just Psychomaster and Bruhtelho that voted for Kris & Noelle. Added Koopa's vote.

 

[koopa3144]

Gonna vote Sub-Zero & Scorpion FRA to finish this up.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

That's grace.