Tier 1-A Addendum

[Fllflourine]

A user from FC/OC brought up that our tiering system lacks a component that the basis for our tiering system, the Anime Characters Fight wiki, has: Low 1-A. Essentially, it is a "baseline," 1-A, consisting of characters who simply transcends the concept of dimensions or infinite dimensions.


Well, that's the criteria for qualifying for 1-A already, but one of the main reasons why this could be a valuable addition is that it could help differentiate those who are merely 1-A on our wiki because they are transcendent to the concept of dimensions, like Oblivion or the Throne, from those who are vastly above a "baseline," 1-A, like the Hadou Gods of the Masadaverse. 1-A could then be defined as being both above dimensions and hierarchies to an indeterminate level that is beneath a High 1-A character, but above any other character (such as the difference between those like the Great Old Ones (Low 1-A), and the lowest Outer Gods(1-A)).

A common, and valid argument against this might be the lack of profiles that would qualify for such a rating, but there are several like the ones aforementioned, and it might assist in defining 1-A battles, which are currently allowed, but only under special circumstances (extensive knowledge of the subject matter, sufficient feats, etc.) Another potential case for this would be the benefit of other Wikis that are directly based off of, and use this site as its primary source regarding tiering systems (FC/OC, Joke Battles Wikis) This is the (perhaps badly) translated description of a Low 1-A in context (highlighted text), and regular 1-A for comparison:

Level 1:

• Class A: Extra-dimensional metaphysical abstract transcendental characters without any quantitative restrictions (in terms of physical concept), which could be considered even omnipotent , if not for some subtleties and nuances. The strongest here can compete even with a level of 0 , since that is still unprovable.
  • Low level: Characters whose scale of influence and capabilities are qualitatively superior even to the concept of dimensions. This level can include an endlessly growing hierarchy of character characters with an irresistible qualitative difference between each level.
  • Intermediate level: Characters that represent something beyond the bounds of even the dimensions of the trans-dimensional plane (for example, standing above the infinitely stretching hierarchies of dimensionless perspectives). Within this level, there can also exist their own transcendental hierarchies with arbitrary differences between the steps, and its strongest representatives (usually limited to only almost-all-powerful beings) can even compete with the characters of the highest level of the metaverse level.

Under these terms, the new system, including Low 1-A, could look something like this:

• Low Outerverse level: Characters which are simply beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained. This tier can contain an infinite variation in power and abilities, but the common theme is that these characters are beneath those who transcend abstract concepts and ideas, as well as beyond-dimensional hierarchies.
• Outerverse level: Characters that are not only beyond all dimensional scale, but also are at least infinitely more powerful or complex conceptually than a Low 1-A character. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: These characters should exist at the top of or transcend a beyond-dimensional hierarchy, or are beyond the comprehension of even Low 1-A characters.

If it helps at all, a list can be gathered of potential "Low 1-A," characters who might qualify for this tier instead of regular 1-A. I have collaborated with several other users in the making of this, including a fellow staff member:

• Oblivion
• Great Old Ones
• Crimson King
• Weaker Hadou gods (The heavens)
• Mother Night
• Akuto Sai (Base)
• Marduk
• The Counter-Actor
• Downstreamers
• possibly Gan
• possibly Hypnos
• possibly the Choushin (Individually Low 1-A, together are 1-A)
• possibly most of the Golovachov verse.

 

[Aeyu]

As one of the people who helped with creating this, I firmly and 100% stand with this addendum.

 

[The_Everlasting]

This seems to be way too overcomplicated and frankly unnecessary.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This would certainly help define the 1-A tier further than what we have. I agree.

 

[Golden_Void]

What

 

[Aeyu]

This seems to be way too overcomplicated and frankly unnecessary.

What about it is complicated? This wiki's tiering system was originally based off of ACF in the first place, and this would help this and other, related sites better define their characters.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Just because we're based off the ACF doesn't mean we need to follow their tierings to the letter.

Our 1-A tiering is fine as it is.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i mean in a sense it can help people understand things better though i'm neutral in this tbh (fyi just to say if this is to be implamaneted the weakest heave has a value of 70 so she is way above the throne and the series never had an actual 1 takyoku value as most if not all are hilariously above the throne)

 

[Aeyu]

So a character who is beyond infinitely inferior to another belongs in the same tier as someone who is uncountably superior?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Yes, that's how 1-A works, and that's how it will continue to work even if this is implemented.

It's how 1-B works too.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I agree with adding an additional Low 1-A Tier. However im uncertain if it really is necessary.

 

[Aeyu]

So someone simply beyond dimensions is equal to someone beyond existence and concepts in general?

And yet the 2-X tiers are separated based on the order of thousands of universes...

 

[The_Everlasting]

"So someone simply beyond dimensions is equal to someone beyond existence and concepts in general?"

Where are you getting that? Having the same tier doesn't mean you're equal to someone.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Seems good to me.

 

[Aeyu]

1-A battles are already controversial as it is, though, and this would help alleviate some of that stress. Also, I will continue to bring up this site as being a reference for other sister sites which are run by staff from this wiki.

 

[FanofRPGs]

This seems to be way too overcomplicated and frankly unnecessary.

1-A is already overcomplicated as it is, this will help differentiate the very little stuff we have as best as possible and make it so we can actually have a proper distinction between 1-A characters to a slightly smaller degree.

This is perfectly fine, it simply means "being above a hierarchy of infinite dimensions" equates to low 1-A whilst normal 1-A is far above the hierarchy entirely and low 1-A beings, but not nigh-omni god tiers second to the tier 0 being of the verse, it is not asking for more. There aren't that many profiles needing to be changed, and we will only need to regulate a few new added profiles that may use this. The workload should not be so big to be "tiring" and "too much."

 

[Golden_Void]

What

 

[Aeyu]

The definition isn't as important as the premise. It can be updated or changed to something more logical. However, a character like Hypnos, who is beyond euclidean geometry, is not transcendent of all concepts like an Outer God, and was driven insane by the mere presence of the weakest ones, who are all varying degrees of 1-A. I think that if a Low 1-A tier were to be introduced, it could help separate battle-worthy 1-A characters from the more non-battle worthy ones, saving staff and users alike a lot of stress when dealing with these potential matchups.

(Edit: Additionally, the tiering system has changed many times in the past, and this only has beneficial applications, helping sister sites among them. It would take a minimal amount of profile editing, and several users would be willing to assist in the gathering of data regarding such characters, myself included.)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

As said above, most 1-A fights ends up being debates on the scale of one's 1-A tiering. This would help make it more clear-cut for certain cases.

Seriously can we stop saying "we over complicate it" for everything? We have like around 20 1-A profiles here.

 

[Aeyu]

i mean in a sense it can help people understand things better though i'm neutral in this tbh (fyi just to say if this is to be implamaneted the weakest heave has a value of 70 so she is way above the throne and the series never had an actual 1 takyoku value as most if not all are hilariously above the throne)

Then these would likely not qualify.

 

[Golden_Void]

I don't think the Choushin are 1-A together, and Low 1-A separately. Washu herself created a machine that created new universes with infinite possibilities of time and space.

 

[Fllflourine]

I don't think the Choushin are 1-A together, and Low 1-A separately. Washu herself created a machine that created new universes with infinite possibilities of time and space.

I see. But what do you think of the addition of Low 1-A?

 

[Aeyu]

I don't think the Choushin are 1-A together, and Low 1-A separately. Washu herself created a machine that created new universes with infinite possibilities of time and space.

I was thinking this, myself. However, wouldn't that only pertain to possibilities within the confines of dimensional space, but not beyond it? I recall the machine creating possibilities which would lead to the emergence of a transcendent being, but it's never directly stated if those possibilities are hyper-dimensional.

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm leaning more with Ever on this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This seems to be way too overcomplicated and frankly unnecessary.

I share Everlasting's opinion. There's no need to split 1-A into many levels.

Should we split 1-B into a bazillion levels because it has a similarly large gap between weakest and strongest? No.

This just feels like an attempt to render everything simplified and easily understandable for people too lazy to read the profiles and research the Verses, but on long term it will accomplish nothing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, if we create a "Low 1-A" rating, do you know what that will change?

Absolutely nothing.

A Reinhard Heydrich vs Lucifer Morningstar match will still be a mess of people debating which infininity is bigger than the other.

And matches between two "Low 1-A" will also be similarly overcomplicated.

It's also worth pointing out that Math stops meaning much on High 1-B, so the idea to divide 1-As by saying one is "Infinitely above the other" amounts to nothing.

The best way to explain 1-As is by providing detailed AP descriptions.

 

[Promestein]

I also agree with Ever. 1-A isn't overcomplicated, it's just hard to understand, and I think these new distinctions will just be more confusing in terms of their actual meanings even if they give people a clearer idea of where each character stands in 1-A.

 

[Aeyu]

and neither of those profiles would change, in all honesty

 

[Aeyu]

This seems to be way too overcomplicated and frankly unnecessary.

I share Everlasting's opinion. There's no need to split 1-A into many levels.
Should we split 1-B into a bazillion levels because it has a similarly large gap between weakest and strongest? No.

This just feels like an attempt to render everything simplified and easily understandable for people too lazy to read the profiles and research the Verses, but on long term it will accomplish nothing.

1-B is a totally different beast, I would argue. We're talking about numbers of dimensions there. There is a conceptual gap here which cannot be expressed in the same way. It's not a lazy attempt at all; it's been long thought out for weeks now by several staff and users who think it has beneficial implications. Also, wouldn't it help the other wikis out, as well?

 

[FateAlbane]

Frankly speaking we have massive gaps in a bunch of tiers already. Actually reading the profiles justifications should be enough for even someone not familiar to get at least some grasp of where the character stands in the tier.

And if not, in the offchance where a match against another 1-A happens, that can always be discussed in the thread.

Sounds way more simple and to the point than creating subcategories to an already complex tier in itself and from where I stand it looks like this might cause more complication than actually help diminish any existing ones in the long run.

 

[Fllflourine]

Would you guys mind if I consult DarkLK?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1-A is not overcomplicated, like Prom said. It is only overcomplicated in the minds of people who overanalyze.

This is giving me flashbacks to the "The only true 1-A characters are those depicted like the Outer Gods who are utterly incomprehensible". People exaggerate what 1-As can or cannot be and it leads to misunderstandings.

People being incapable of understanding that a character is much stronger than another happens on every single Tier. Happens with 4-Bs, 3-Bs, 3-As, 2-Bs, 2-As, High 1-Bs...

And it inevitbly happens with 1-As.

Wanting to further split the Tiering System in a vain attempt to make people less confused of such a basic notion will accomplish nothing and will only lead to more attempts to split the Tiering System in the future.

 

[Aeyu]

I don't see how this complicates anything. A lower end 1-A is absolutely, irreconcilably inferior to a mid-range or higher end 1-A. What this would do is three things: help other wikis, assist in defining VS battles at that level instead of throwing our hands up in the air, and better define outerversal, which is a term CREATED by this wiki. It's the same as putting 3-A and High 3-A as the same thing because both are 3-D.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

" We're talking about numbers of dimensions there. There is a conceptual gap here which cannot be expressed in the same way."

>Conceptual Gap

This is what I mean when people exaggerate 1-As and get lost in definitions.

"I'd say It's not a lazy attempt at all; it's been long thought out for weeks now by several staff and users who think it has beneficial implications."

And I see no beneficial implications, just an uneccessary overcluttering of something that works out fine.

"Also, wouldn't it help the other wikis out, as well?"

Since when do we care for Wikias not affiliated with us? Every wiki does its thing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see how this complicates anything. A lower end 1-A is absolutely, irreconcilably inferior to a mid-range or higher end 1-A. What this would do is three things: help other wikis, assist in defining VS battles at that level instead of throwing our hands up in the air, and better define outerversal, which is a term CREATED by this wiki. It's the same as putting 3-A and High 3-A as the same thing because both are 3-D.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said in the post above that 1-B is completely different because Dimensional Differences are easy to understand, but now you are comparing 1-A to High 3-A, which is Three Dimensional.

Also, so what if a 1-A is immeasurably inferior to another? Since when is this grounds for creating a New Tier?

A tier that, mind you, from the likes of which you discuss, would only amount to Classifying the absolute weakest 1-As. If you are as much as stronger than another 1-A, you wouldn't get Low 1-A.

What's the point, even?

 

[Aeyu]

" We're talking about numbers of dimensions there. There is a conceptual gap here which cannot be expressed in the same way."
>Conceptual Gap

This is what I mean when people exaggerate 1-As and get lost in definitions.

"I'd say It's not a lazy attempt at all; it's been long thought out for weeks now by several staff and users who think it has beneficial implications."

And I see no beneficial implications, just an uneccessary overcluttering of something that works out fine.

"Also, wouldn't it help the other wikis out, as well?"

Since when do we care for Wikias not affiliated with us? Every wiki does its thing.

It's not an exaggeration whatsoever, nor a vain attempt at anything. 1-A battles have had much controversy lately regarding whether or not they are even suited for VS battles for this EXACT problem. The difference between the lowest and highest 1-A characters is immeasurably greater than the difference between 11-C and High 1-B. I don't see how that doesn't warrant a new tier, especially when our pregenitors, ACF, had this tier with less characters who could rationally fall into its confines.

Also, in regard to other wikis, they use the SAME definitions for profiles as we do on here, especially FC/OC. Under that logic, should they not be allowed to make their OWN tiers based off of the original premise?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

As far as I'm concerned, accuracy is the most important aspect.

Even if its not defintly needed, that's not an excuse to cut corners, it helps detail it even further.

I agree.

 

[Aeyu]

I don't see how this complicates anything. A lower end 1-A is absolutely, irreconcilably inferior to a mid-range or higher end 1-A. What this would do is three things: help other wikis, assist in defining VS battles at that level instead of throwing our hands up in the air, and better define outerversal, which is a term CREATED by this wiki. It's the same as putting 3-A and High 3-A as the same thing because both are 3-D.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said in the post above that 1-B is completely different because Dimensional Differences are easy to understand, but now you are comparing 1-A to High 3-A, which is Three Dimensional.
Also, so what if a 1-A is immeasurably inferior to another? Since when is this grounds for creating a New Tier?

A tier that, mind you, from the likes of which you discuss, would only amount to Classifying the absolute weakest 1-As. If you are as much as stronger than another 1-A, you wouldn't get Low 1-A.

What's the point, even?

That's missing the point, a little bit, though I'm not trying to start some sort of flame war. It's a comparison because of the CONCEPT difference between the two. 3-A deals with finite levels of 3-D power where High 3-A deals with the infinite. The same would apply here, characters who are simply beyond euclidean dimensions aren't even near equivalent to a character like Hajun who transcends virtually all of existence and its concepts. And I don't see how that DOESN'T warrant a new tier, it's like saying because 1-B is more dimensions than 12, that having a tier for an infinite number equates to redundancy.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I don't understand the argument that we shouldn't make a tier just because hardly any characters would use it. It's the same logic that was used to reject the idea of a whole tier including smaller animals and insects instead of just "below average human".

We hardly have any 11-C characters, or any Tier 11 characters at all. Yet we still have that tier.

 

[DMUA]

Seems legit. As pretty much everything like this I end up encountering.