- 8,998
- 2,927
They can always like, create their own tiers if they want to, you know.
We aren't forcing anyone out there to follow our own guidelines.
We aren't forcing anyone out there to follow our own guidelines.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tier 1-A Addendum
- Thread starter Fllflourine
- Start date
-
- Tags
- tiering system
- Status
- 8,998
- 2,927
And in much the same way we shouldn't prioritize other sites before our own when deciding stuff like how our tiering system should function. It's simple and understandable.
- 32,358
- 20,298
@TheJ-ManRequiem
Fair enough. It simply gets tiring after you see a pattern for so long.
Fair enough. It simply gets tiring after you see a pattern for so long.
- 2,650
- 467
But they do, which is the point. They're not arbitrary Wikis like the ones who try to upgrade Goku to 2-C with no evidence because they don't like our ratings. It's Wikis that are modded by staff from this site, which is why they're legitimate in the first place. In the past, VBW had hypothetical profiles too, but due to a lot of users creating problems, two new Wikis were made to supplant those issues.
- 8,998
- 2,927
Either way, as J-Man pointed out, this may take a turn for the worse so I won't be following the thread from now on as opposed to simply not replying before I risk getting involved in something I'd rather avoid.
The subject does not concern me much either way - but my position remains unchanged.
That's all from me, people.
The subject does not concern me much either way - but my position remains unchanged.
That's all from me, people.
- 19,151
- 6,446
I agree that this is an unnecessary expansion of the tier, you could literally expand the tiering to many other sub tiers if you tried due to how vast it is, remember the difference between a 1-A and High 1-B is greater than the difference between a High 1-B and a 11-C, even within this hypothetical new tiering their would be vast differences between characters within the same tier, trying to divide 1-A into other sub tiers, just isn't practical.
This would only be useful for vs matchups and even then it wouldn't help much, if you wanna know which 1-A is stronger, you need to research the characters.
This would only be useful for vs matchups and even then it wouldn't help much, if you wanna know which 1-A is stronger, you need to research the characters.
- 12,239
- 1,112
Maybe but that feels somewhat insulting tiwards the one you're making accusations of.
Most of this is opinions, of course there's gonna become disagreeing after all.
But, I've said my stance.
Most of this is opinions, of course there's gonna become disagreeing after all.
But, I've said my stance.
- 32,358
- 20,298
"I merely deal in my work with the concept of beyond-dimensional concepts and as such I and others had thought it to be a useful addition to an already good tiering system; it's not an attempt to undermine the work of many intelligent individuals."
I'm not undermining the work of any intelligent individual.
By your work I assume you mean a Fan-Verse since you are from FCOC?
Well, both the fodder 1-As and stronk 1-As from your Verse would still be 1-As. That's how it is.
"there are many who HAVE differentiated this, Lovecraft especially"
Misinterpreting Lovecraft. Lovecraft's writing explicitely states that everything is rendered meaningless the moment you leave physical dimensions. Any 1-A in Lovecraft's writing is beyond time, space, duality, mathematics, angles, geometry, concepts, etc.
It's just that even that means nothing to the Outer Gods. Who are meant to be so utterly incomprehensible that even the incomprehensible to us means nothing to them.
You are just transffering the first to the later. The likes of Hypnos and the GOOs still fit your definition of high-end 1-A.
" How do you figure the conceptual difference doesn't exist? If Hypnos truly transcended all concepts, or the Throne, or whatever, hierarchies would not exist to them"
Wrong. Hierarchies can exist on a 1-A level even though the characters transcend mathamatics.
Just like Masadaverse 1-A have stuff like Dimensionless 1-A Time Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Lightning Manipulation, Dimensionless 1-A Martial Arts and Katana, etc.
All things that should be utterly meaningless on such a stage.
It's just fiction, not everything has to add up perfectly.
"What's the difference? A concept is still a concept"
The difference is that if all the concepts we know are meaningless on such a level, then the concepts which apply to the beings which transcend all concepts aren't even worth discussing since nothing can be determined on them.
"That doesn't sound a convincing enough argument."
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. You complain that Hypnos was stomped and say he shouldn't be on the same Tier as Nyarlathotep because of that. That's simply a poor reasoning that is wrong.
"once again implying yourself that I'm referencing reality/fiction interaction"
Never implied that. Where did you get that implication from?
I'm not undermining the work of any intelligent individual.
By your work I assume you mean a Fan-Verse since you are from FCOC?
Well, both the fodder 1-As and stronk 1-As from your Verse would still be 1-As. That's how it is.
"there are many who HAVE differentiated this, Lovecraft especially"
Misinterpreting Lovecraft. Lovecraft's writing explicitely states that everything is rendered meaningless the moment you leave physical dimensions. Any 1-A in Lovecraft's writing is beyond time, space, duality, mathematics, angles, geometry, concepts, etc.
It's just that even that means nothing to the Outer Gods. Who are meant to be so utterly incomprehensible that even the incomprehensible to us means nothing to them.
You are just transffering the first to the later. The likes of Hypnos and the GOOs still fit your definition of high-end 1-A.
" How do you figure the conceptual difference doesn't exist? If Hypnos truly transcended all concepts, or the Throne, or whatever, hierarchies would not exist to them"
Wrong. Hierarchies can exist on a 1-A level even though the characters transcend mathamatics.
Just like Masadaverse 1-A have stuff like Dimensionless 1-A Time Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Lightning Manipulation, Dimensionless 1-A Martial Arts and Katana, etc.
All things that should be utterly meaningless on such a stage.
It's just fiction, not everything has to add up perfectly.
"What's the difference? A concept is still a concept"
The difference is that if all the concepts we know are meaningless on such a level, then the concepts which apply to the beings which transcend all concepts aren't even worth discussing since nothing can be determined on them.
"That doesn't sound a convincing enough argument."
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. You complain that Hypnos was stomped and say he shouldn't be on the same Tier as Nyarlathotep because of that. That's simply a poor reasoning that is wrong.
"once again implying yourself that I'm referencing reality/fiction interaction"
Never implied that. Where did you get that implication from?
- 32,358
- 20,298
That's completely different. We made Sister Wikis for Fan Characters and Joke Characters.Aeyu said:
If you go and make a Wiki called "Fictional Gladiator Battles" with your own Tiering System, classifications, profiles, etc. That's on you.
- 2,650
- 467
Well, that and other potential works. I am not strictly trying to argue this on my behalf, either, not by a long shot; none of the characters on my FC/OC verse's page would qualify anyway. There are several users who I have talked to both publicly and privately on the subject who have thought this would help their verses.
And, not to sound condescending in any way, but that description essentially WOULD actually be a good way to separate the two tiers were it ever taken into consideration. Which is what I had hoped would happen, I was not under the impression that it would be something that would just instantly occur. That being said, Lovecraft's definitions wouldn't be the be-all-end-all for that situation, it's just a comparison I thought would send my points home.
How is that wrong, by the way? Hierarchies ARE a concept. Which, if 1-As transcend all of, could not logically exist. Which is why previously I mentioned 1-A being a, "throwaway tier".
Why is it not worth discussing those concepts? Even at a "meta," level, they are still concepts which can be understood, similar to how we understand 4-D physics despite us not being able to visualize it. Questionable Omnipotence itself can be conceived of.
Why is it a poor reasoning? People will continue to make matches mismatching those characters because they don't understand that one is simply non-dimensional, while the other is beyond conception. The theme of this site is VS battles, and 1-As being allowed to compete in said battles definitely begs this question.
Finally, you *did* imply this, because you were saying I implied they were *real* omnipotents, something which I have repeatedly admitted is not possible due to Reality/Fiction interaction.
Additionally, no one has addressed the High 1-A/0 thing having an "others," section. It is redundant and nonsensical. Why has this not been looked at?
(Edit: Formatting errors x-x)
And, not to sound condescending in any way, but that description essentially WOULD actually be a good way to separate the two tiers were it ever taken into consideration. Which is what I had hoped would happen, I was not under the impression that it would be something that would just instantly occur. That being said, Lovecraft's definitions wouldn't be the be-all-end-all for that situation, it's just a comparison I thought would send my points home.
How is that wrong, by the way? Hierarchies ARE a concept. Which, if 1-As transcend all of, could not logically exist. Which is why previously I mentioned 1-A being a, "throwaway tier".
Why is it not worth discussing those concepts? Even at a "meta," level, they are still concepts which can be understood, similar to how we understand 4-D physics despite us not being able to visualize it. Questionable Omnipotence itself can be conceived of.
Why is it a poor reasoning? People will continue to make matches mismatching those characters because they don't understand that one is simply non-dimensional, while the other is beyond conception. The theme of this site is VS battles, and 1-As being allowed to compete in said battles definitely begs this question.
Finally, you *did* imply this, because you were saying I implied they were *real* omnipotents, something which I have repeatedly admitted is not possible due to Reality/Fiction interaction.
Additionally, no one has addressed the High 1-A/0 thing having an "others," section. It is redundant and nonsensical. Why has this not been looked at?
(Edit: Formatting errors x-x)
- 8,438
- 3,293
We have a sister Wiki for fan characters? That is new to me.
Not to derail, I don't think this is nessesary. 1-A isn't the largest tier, but sorting through them all just to make a change will alter borderline nothing going forward seems like a grievous waste of resources. I think it is fine as is.
Not to derail, I don't think this is nessesary. 1-A isn't the largest tier, but sorting through them all just to make a change will alter borderline nothing going forward seems like a grievous waste of resources. I think it is fine as is.
- 2,764
- 723
- Thread starter
- #92
Aeyu, please do not quote large blocks of text. Simply doing something like @Matt is adequete.
- 32,358
- 20,298
@Assaltwaffle
fcoc-vs-battles.wikia.com/wiki/
@Aeyu
Stop quoting giant posts.
fcoc-vs-battles.wikia.com/wiki/
@Aeyu
Stop quoting giant posts.
- 32,358
- 20,298
@Aeyu
I don't understand your point.
We don't care about wikis we aren't affiliated with. There's no reason for us to do something for their sake, specially when, since they are not tied to us, they can do whatever they want.
Like 2-A Goku or whatever.
I don't understand your point.
We don't care about wikis we aren't affiliated with. There's no reason for us to do something for their sake, specially when, since they are not tied to us, they can do whatever they want.
Like 2-A Goku or whatever.
- 2,650
- 467
But those sites are related to us, and rather unlikely to change due to following our standards. Thus, creating a new wiki helps not at all, and only furthers the division some people might have regarding this site, something that I am not inclined to help fuel.
- 32,358
- 20,298
"But those sites are related to us"
They're not.
"and rather unlikely to change due to following our standards"
Objectively incorrect as I can directly point to examples that deviate.
They're not.
"and rather unlikely to change due to following our standards"
Objectively incorrect as I can directly point to examples that deviate.
- 2,650
- 467
Like which? FC/OC would be hard to convince because they are very passionate about staying within a framework. Joke Battles Wiki exists for this reason. Because their tiers are nonsensical and ARE related to those who may have a, "fixation," as you described it.
Plus, they're BOTH administrated by users from this site.
Plus, they're BOTH administrated by users from this site.
- 32,358
- 20,298
FC/OC and JBW are tied to us directed. I'm referring to copycat sites, or sites based on us.
As an example, both Infinitas-Guerras and Liber-Proellis (Both great Brazilian Vs Wikis) have a system that while based on ours, differs greatly.
As an example, both Infinitas-Guerras and Liber-Proellis (Both great Brazilian Vs Wikis) have a system that while based on ours, differs greatly.
- 2,650
- 467
And those are systems which have no bearing on this discussion, because as you said, they have no link to us whatsoever. I am talking about real change in these circles and my intentions have only been positive. I ask only that it at least be taken into consideration as a possible future issue, like how Hyperversal+ was fine for defining 1-A characters at one point, but was revised into what is now Outerversal. The tiering system has changed in the past, I recall an era where, "beyond omnipotence," was something that was considered (before the FC/OC, JBW days)
Also, I am going to once again shill for a rule to be added where High 1-A/0 characters do not have an "others," section. It is redundant and this, I find, could be well agreed upon.
Also, I am going to once again shill for a rule to be added where High 1-A/0 characters do not have an "others," section. It is redundant and this, I find, could be well agreed upon.
- 32,358
- 20,298
So, what do you even want? You are either arguing for the sake of this Site or Other Wikis, right?
Others Sections aren't only for victories or Losses. You can add other stuff like Trivia if you wish.
Others Sections aren't only for victories or Losses. You can add other stuff like Trivia if you wish.
- 2,650
- 467
I am arguing for the sake of both. It could help here and on our sister sites. This was not some poorly thought out, spur of the moment thing we were trying to build, nor to start a flame-war, which isn't good for anyone.
Also. While one could have a trivia section, having notable victories/losses/inconclusive IS redundant. There will never be victories, losses or inconclusive matches regarding these characters, because matchups regarding them are banned.
Also. While one could have a trivia section, having notable victories/losses/inconclusive IS redundant. There will never be victories, losses or inconclusive matches regarding these characters, because matchups regarding them are banned.
- 7,200
- 2,180
This is going off topic, and should probably be closed. A staff thread should be made if necessary. :^)
- 32,358
- 20,298
That is a completely different system?
And I'm sorry to say this. I see that you have a good intention, but you aren't going to help anything with this. It will only create more problems.
And I'm sorry to say this. I see that you have a good intention, but you aren't going to help anything with this. It will only create more problems.
- 2,650
- 467
What is a completely different system?
And I'll say it again. I don't see how there's any problems, beyond the basic difficulty of finding out who qualifies, which wouldn't be too hard to begin with. I'll ask only one last time for it to be taken into consideration or possibly moulded differently.
The main focus was, and still is, the betterment of 1-A VS battles. There was a thread *yesterday* about this exact problem, which has led staff to take a very cautious approach toward those battles. The definition for this potential tier is not important. It is arbitrary, and could be changed according to fancy. Perhaps replaced with what you said, @Matt, earlier regarding Lovecraft's work.
And I'll say it again. I don't see how there's any problems, beyond the basic difficulty of finding out who qualifies, which wouldn't be too hard to begin with. I'll ask only one last time for it to be taken into consideration or possibly moulded differently.
The main focus was, and still is, the betterment of 1-A VS battles. There was a thread *yesterday* about this exact problem, which has led staff to take a very cautious approach toward those battles. The definition for this potential tier is not important. It is arbitrary, and could be changed according to fancy. Perhaps replaced with what you said, @Matt, earlier regarding Lovecraft's work.
- 995
- 229
So basically this would be divided by a certain amount of *concepts* that each character is above. Low 1-A - beyond x amount of concepts, Mid 1-A - beyond infinite possible concepts.
So anyone here actually versed in metaphysics/cosmology for this to be valid?
So anyone here actually versed in metaphysics/cosmology for this to be valid?
- 2,650
- 467
I think we all are, to be perfectly frank. I think the issue is more semantics and definitions to be honest. It (the hypothetical tier) could be defined better, I'll myself admit this. It's just that the definitio of 1-A is problematic, because while it states that it is beyond dimensions, something with which we can conceive of (as in a place which is essentially made of dimensionless quantities), it also contains characters who are hypothetically conceptually superior to all human abstractions, hence the original premise.
- 32,358
- 20,298
I agree. This is super long and most people (Staff) disagree.Unite My Rice said:
- 8,998
- 2,927
Time to count support and against, I suppose.
Against: The Everlasting, FateAlbane, MatthewSchroeder, Promestein, ArbitraryNumbers, Monarch Laciel, DarkLK (was against it in the Message Flourine sent on his wall), EliminatorVenom, SSJRyu1, Celestial Pegasus, AssaltWaffle, Pachi2
Support: Saikou the Lewd King, Aeyu, Super Saiyan God Julian (kinda neutral however), Warren Valion, FanofRPGs, ProspectX
Neutral: TISSG7Redgrave, The J-ManRequiem
Not sure on UniteMyRice's position.
So yeah, pretty sure the opposition is way bigger and said opposition includes a rather significant number of staff and admins and even DarkLK as well. Make of that what you will.
Against: The Everlasting, FateAlbane, MatthewSchroeder, Promestein, ArbitraryNumbers, Monarch Laciel, DarkLK (was against it in the Message Flourine sent on his wall), EliminatorVenom, SSJRyu1, Celestial Pegasus, AssaltWaffle, Pachi2
Support: Saikou the Lewd King, Aeyu, Super Saiyan God Julian (kinda neutral however), Warren Valion, FanofRPGs, ProspectX
Neutral: TISSG7Redgrave, The J-ManRequiem
Not sure on UniteMyRice's position.
So yeah, pretty sure the opposition is way bigger and said opposition includes a rather significant number of staff and admins and even DarkLK as well. Make of that what you will.
- 2,650
- 467
Well hey, at least that's better than one person shouting into the darkness.
As I've said, I stand by my argument, and will continue to even if this does not pass. I only ask that it still be CONSIDERED in the future, as other changes have been. I also encourage people to look into dimensionless quantities in physics.
As I've said, I stand by my argument, and will continue to even if this does not pass. I only ask that it still be CONSIDERED in the future, as other changes have been. I also encourage people to look into dimensionless quantities in physics.
- 2,764
- 723
- Thread starter
- #114
Don't forget that 2-B/2-A split I had that was rejected, but now we have 2-B at "any finite universes" and 2-A as being infinite universes, Aeyu.
- 32,358
- 20,298
I think this kinda sums it up, then.FateAlbane said:
- 2,764
- 723
- Thread starter
- #116
Oh well... I guess making it was still worth it in the end... for all it was, anyway...
- 32,358
- 20,298
Well, since people are throwing the towel, should it be closed?
- 8,998
- 2,927
My god, people, that's a figure of speech.
I always wonder why some even take this stuff at such a personal level.
It's a CRT, a thread. Some words thrown around in a forum and that's about it. No one is shooting one another or losing money or risking something and no one should be adressing others further than adressing the topic at hand.
It's a hobby at that.
I always wonder why some even take this stuff at such a personal level.
It's a CRT, a thread. Some words thrown around in a forum and that's about it. No one is shooting one another or losing money or risking something and no one should be adressing others further than adressing the topic at hand.
It's a hobby at that.
- Status
