Tier 0 vs 1-A

[MYHERO]

This is based off on this thread.

I am now very curious. I was informed that tier 0s are essentially the strongest characters on this site, due to their status as a true boundless being. But now I've been told that this is not always the case. It's not an automatic win button for them as there can be certain 1-As that transcends bigger hierarchies then them.

So right now I am pretty confused, are tier 0s essentially the strongest characters in this site, or is that not always the case?

 

[The_Smashor]

If a 1-A transends a 0 then the profile is outdated.

 

[DMB_1]

It's because Tier 0 isn't determined exclusively by a scaling chain, as much as it is by a character(s) being viewed as immeasurably transcendent over everything in their verse (including any 1-A, and any concept within the verse itself, naturally).

 

[Dvorak1902]

Short Answer:

According to the Tiering System, yes, 0 is always stronger.

According to common consensus, not necessarily.

 

[MYHERO]

So if we put something like The Amaranth up against someone like Shub Niggurath, Shub would win?

 

[Dvorak1902]

I don't know who wins, 1-A Hierarchies are weird. But it isn't automatically a stomp on either's side.

 

[MYHERO]

Well let me put it this way. A tier 0 from a verse that has baseline 1-As, vs a 1-A that transcends baseline through infinite hierarchies with fiction reality differences in them. Would the tier 0 still win?

 

[First_Witch]

Speak in evil tongues, your statements might trigger more people than you like HERO.

But generaly speaking, yes. Tier 0 and 1A are basically the same, with 0 being the hierachically highest being in a verse. The problem is, that 1A "PoWERleVels" are determined by the cosmological size of the verse and the hierachical position of a character. A T0 dosnt need a infinite layered outerversal structure as its cosmology as long as its clearly proofen to be the god of the verse, with no 1A character below him being able to exceed him in any shape or form. Umineko has incoorporated a good way to easily understand why the Creator is 0. Not only does he exist at the end of the Umineko Food chain, even if a character manages to "Surpass" him, they will simply be absorbed into him. The moment you reach his level is the moment you stop being you, you are now part of the Creator.

This dosnt make the Creator sure fire stronger than Outer Gods or any other 1A character (But he probably is). Talking about the strength of a 1A/0 is nearly impossible though. 1A is a tier where common comparasons arent making any sense anymore. The only thing you could (And that still runs into problems like the verses operating under different concepts) is compare the cosmology of each verse. This requires deep understanding of both verses though and cant be fully objective either.

 

[DMB_1]

1-A battles are more difficult to imagine because, with normal higher-d battles, you can just count up the number of dimensions that the characters possess.

With 1-A, as there is no such thing in science, the verses themselves tend to imagine 1-A characters in different ways, thus having different hierarchies and systems. This is why Tier 0 is its own thing mostly independent from how vas hierarchy scaling chain itself actually is in a verse.

 

[MYHERO]

Y'know I heard a discussion regarding who is the strongest tier 0. The discussion ended by someone saying that there cannot be any definitive strongest tier 0s, since at that point it's just boundless being vs boundless being. Would that mean the same for 1-As and tier 0s in general? That there is no definitive strongest?

 

[Antvasima]

Ideally, tier 0 characters should, at the very least, exceed baseline tier 1-A characters as they in turn exceed those bound by dimensions. However, in certain cases, such as The One Above All, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, and possibly Anu and The Amaranth, they have gained the rating simply by a single degree of Reality - Fiction Interaction difference, which technically shouldn't be the case, as some Umineko and Cthulhu Mythos 1-A characters are apparently far beyond that scale, but I am too tired and busy to do anything about it on my own, given how controversial the topic is.

Ultima Reality is in the early stages of planning how to revise the tiering system in this regard, but will need to have long talks with other knowledgeable staff members to make certain that we make no mistakes first.

 

[LuciusIsMas]

Ideally, tier 0 characters should, at the very least, exceed baseline tier 1-A characters as they in turn exceed those bound by dimensions. However, in certain cases, such as The One Above All, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, and possibly Anu and The Amaranth, they have gained the rating simply by a single degree of Reality - Fiction Interaction difference, which tecunically shouldn't be the case, as some Umineko and Cthulhu Mythos 1-A characters are apparently far beyond that scale, but I am too tired and busy to do anything about it on my own, given how controversial the topic is.
Ultima Reality is in the early stages of planning how to revise the tiering system in this regard, but will need to have long talks with other knowledgeable staff members to make certain that we make no mistakes first.

I mean to be fair about the OverMonitor they see The Presence as fiction. And I think The Presence is one of the farthest into 1-A besides Akuto Sai, The Leviathan and maybe a few Unimeko/Cthulhu Mythos characters. But The Presence isn't baseline 1-A. For TOAA I can see why that could be a problem as TOAA only transcends one single 1-A in the MU (Oblivion.)

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but I think that PrinceOfTheMorning has some revisions planned in that regard.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The presence is fodder 1-A tho

 

[InfiniteSped]

1-A battles don't make sense anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Since the question has been answered, should we close this thread?

 

[MYHERO]

Okay I don't want to beat on a dead horse but just to clarify one last time let me ask another question: if TOAA go against Bernkastel, it wouldn't be an absolute stomp for TOAA's favor and would actually be more decisive then one would believe?

 

[DMB_1]

Okay I don't want to beat on a dead horse but just to clarify one last time let me ask another question: if TOAA go against Bernkastel, it wouldn't be an absolute stomp for TOAA's favor and would actually be more decisive then one would believe?

The result would probably be unquantifiable since the two 1-A cosmologies would contradict each other. Besides, Tier 0 as a whole goes against the whole point of Vs battles and measuring 1-A characters, that's why they don't have a Notable Matches section.

That's from what i can understand.

 

[Antvasima]

Bernkastel is actually probably hierarchically considerably above TOAA. As I mentioned, Ultima Reality is preparing to fix our system in this regard though.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In short, we will have tier 0 matches soon :v

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know about that. Sorry.

 

[First_Witch]

In short, we will have tier 0 matches soon :v

Bleak times would arrive if that happens, because those will turn into utter shit shows real qick. If they are possible by mechanic then they will be forbidden by rule for controversy

 

[DMB_1]

As Witch said, Tier 0 matches don't sound like a good thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there anything left to do here, or should I close this thread?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

In short, we will have tier 0 matches soon :v

Nobody ever said anything about that, I'm afraid.

 

[MYHERO]

Is there anything left to do here, or should I close this thread?

Sorry but not yet...

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That's why I put the :v at the end. No need to take seriously that comment.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like the question has been sufficiently answered. We should preferably close this thread.