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The Yu-Gi-Oh! Thread to end 'em all.

Still, the God cards still clashed with Leviathan. So, the very god tiers are still at the very least 5-A.


But that is not really the big stuff. Its the hax.

And, Knight's card ability in the anime is to indeed absorb card effects into himself, that is the reason the infinite attack loop ever happened in the first place, after all.

Multiply is a spell card used on Kuriboh, aka. Card hax.

So, i think it is quite clearly reasonable to finally give Anime Yugi the hax he has been deprived for all this time.
 
I don't disagree that the Gods are At least 5-A. But when they beat Leviathan, it was a weakened version, if my memory serves. (Also, it technically survived; They only destroyed its physical form; Its spirit form kept fighting.)

I am aware of Legendary Knight Timaeus's effect to copy/absorb Spell Effects.

Multiply creates clones of a monster, not multiplies its power.

The Knights did an Attack Redirection Loop that triggered a multiplication of ATK, but they were ultimately working with a finite ATK to multiply, a finite multiplier, & a finite timeframe before they fused. You can't achieve infinity through those means. Also, Divine Serpent lacks other showings of infinite power, ATK stat is unreliable as a measure of power when its an in-universe game mechanic, & The Legendary Knight fusion suffers from those same issues as well, in addition to its "incorrect maths to reach infinity" problem.
 
Oh, but of course. No one is arguing for high 3-A since it is not "true" infinity. It is just a bunch og finite values being repeated over and over. I dunno how it would count, but perhaps at least 3-A?

Regardless. Such jump might be a bit too much.


I was speaking about the hax. I find it reasonable that if Yugi could use multiply, he should be able to

1.-use it in a versus thread against his opponent like it was a monster. (Leviathan and Anubis count as duelists yet they are affected by effects like a monster would)

2.-Use any trap of magic card as hax.
 
Regarding the "hax", other than that the capacity to use it outside of a duel was only in the DOMA Arc (And when it had a "real" monster to target in the first place; I'd presume it can't make "real" clones of holograms.), I think it'd be good to wait for input from other users on this. (Also, I want to sleep.)

It may also be good to consult the original Japanese dialogue in the DOMA Arc if it ever said "all the cards/effects" were real, as opposed to just the monsters. Although, at least in duels, there's some evidence to support non-monsters, like Crystal Prison encasing Timaeus, which IIRC, should've shown some physicality.
 
Anime effects change all the time. God have 'hidden effects' in the anime only the chosen ones can activate em like infinite ATK obelisk.

And i think the knight here indeed proves that card effects = game mechanics. The kngiht is stated to have the ability to use spell card effects on himself, the same goes to Kaiba's and Joey's knights as well. Its their effect. Their literal In Anime TCG effect, and it uses a spell card to activate such effect. A TCG card. Not to mention this is also backed up for novel Japanese anime Yugi and 4kids Yugi with Pyramid of light where Shining Dragon is directly stated to have used it effect to kill Anubis.

Even if downplayed to the absolute mininum, Yugi should have insta kill via shinin dragon and at least his season 4/5 deck as direct TCG mechanic hax. Ex. Million knives is insta kill.

And all times it does not work or it is unreasonable for yugi not to try to use million knives, it is easy ti justify it by saying leviatjan is immune to such effects, like many, many DM monsters have.
 
I'm not talking about hidden effects though. I'm talking their explicit effects. Not to mention you would have to prove so many cards have hidden effects.

You would also have to assume that a lot of monsters are immune to effects that are never stated to be.

Essentially, it would fall to several assumptions vs just taking what we see as it is, ie card effects don't translate into actual abilities.
 
Here now. Okay so 2 things after skimming through this

1.) I saw talk about how card effects = game mechanics and Multiply ignoring its card effect is an explicit example of this. If its only game mechanics, then where is the 10,000x power boost effect justified?

2.) Hold on, if Zorc is > Leviathan and Zorcs best feat is nothing higher than 5-A or High 5-A if pushing it, how is Tier 4 Leviathan also not an outlier?
 
1) Knight's effect is to absorb the effects of Spell cards and use them. That is how he created the infinite loop with the other knights. He absorbed Multiply (whoch multiplied Kuriboh 10,000x times in the fight against pegasus.

2) That was a weakened Zorc, by scaling, he is at least tier high 5-A by scaling to prime leviathan , who could eat suns. specially if both 4-A feats for Yami and Shadii are confirmed consistent in the other threads.
 
I do ot have to prove anythig. Infinite obelisk is not an effect on Obelisk's card ddescription. Yet it is used constantly
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Here now. Okay so 2 things after skimming through this
1.) I saw talk about how card effects = game mechanics and Multiply ignoring its card effect is an explicit example of this. If its only game mechanics, then where is the 10,000x power boost effect justified?

2.) Hold on, if Zorc is > Leviathan and Zorcs best feat is nothing higher than 5-A or High 5-A if pushing it, how is Tier 4 Leviathan also not an outlier?
Click to expand...
Leviathan had a legend in the anime in which it swallowed the sun. During Yugi & Raphael's rematch, before awakening, it was shown making stars disappear, visible from several places across the world.

For most of the DOMA Arc, it had the power of the Egyptian Gods (5-As themselves if we assume MW scaling applies there.) absorbed, & after losing their power, the God Cards were stated to be "completely powerless", IIRC the wording correctly, suggesting Leviathan still had most of their strength.

It also made a 5-C storm shortly after awakening, which if it's just a product of it awakening, is pretty casual.

When the monster armies fought it, it effortless one-shot most of them with its Danmaku & wasn't damaged very much, if at all. Among them was BEUD. If we're using MW scaling (Although that's dubious as that BEUD had a different source of "realness" & didn't really have Kaiba, Seto or Kisara's souls powering it.) that's another 5-A due to MW BEUD damaging Zorc.

It was later weakened when the human cast & monster armies thought positive thoughts to remove the darkness in their hearts which Leviathan fed on, & beam clashed with the 3 Egyptian Gods before losing & getting its physical form destroyed; Its spirit survived. (My memory is foggy, but this "positive thoughts" stuff may ALSO have powered up the Egyptian Gods to an unknown degree.)

So I'd assume that as the basis for Tier 4 Leviathan.
 
@Cnuckles .... Unless this is some mistake... Someone hakai him.

Secondly... (When someone asks you for some evidence for 4-A but no one asks for the scans for it and debates for Tier 5).... Should I address it in another thread maybe ?
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
@Cnuckles .... Unless this is some mistake... Someone hakai him.
Secondly... (When someone asks you for some evidence for 4-A but no one asks for the scans for it and debates for Tier 5).... Should I address it in another thread maybe ?
Click to expand...
I dunno about the "4-A Yugi/Shadi" stuff. My "expertise" is more on Leviathan, & so far, I don't know of any connection between Tier 4 Leviathan & Tier 4 rest of the cast. In part because Leviathan has its own Tier 4 feats & had to be weakened severely to be beaten.
 
Megaboy Prime said:
I do ot have to prove anythig. Infinite obelisk is not an effect on Obelisk's card ddescription. Yet it is used constantly
Click to expand...
I already mentioned I'm not talking about hidden effects, espically since they actually state this to be the case with Obelisk, not Multiply or any of the other cases of the effects not coming out as written.
 
Just gonna bump thing and say that i support 1.-A 10,000x upgrade to the top tiers since there is no evidence ubewd is more powerful with Kisara since she is already Kisara in DM world. 2.-All of the deck as hax by scaling to knight, shining dragon and multiply
 
Alright, my bad. Had to re-read some of the past Yugioh threads to get a refresher on old arguments first before coming back to this (plus I was sick).

So about Leviathan's legend about swallowing the sun, this isnt based off card lore or anything akin to that right? Because past yugioh threads that we've been in already brought up more than once about how Card Lore doesnt count for anything.

Leviathan making stars vanish however is something ive never seen brought up before. This might be something, but when you say "around the world", it makes this kind of fishy. Are you referring to Leviathan just making stars unseeable to people around the world or actually making the stars themselves vanish? A clip of this feat happening would help give context.

Absorbing most of the power of the Egyptian Gods is something, but the problem is, even if all 3 of the gods individually are 5-A, this is ignoring the tier difference. The difference between 5-A and High 5-A itself is extremely high, let alone the difference between 5-A and Low 4-C. Even with MW BEUD, I seriously doubt that being superior to 4 5-A beings is going to at all justify a tier 4 rating.

Also, for Megaboy's previous response to me:

> Knight's effect is to absorb the effects of Spell cards and use them. That is how he created the infinite loop with the other knights. He absorbed Multiply (whoch multiplied Kuriboh 10,000x times in the fight against pegasus.

This doesnt really answer my question for the most part though. Im not denying that Knights effect allowed him to use Multiply to boost his power. What im asking is how does this justify that he boosted his strength specifically by 10000x times if the actual effect of Multiply is just game mechanics like Somebody mentioned earlier? There's a difference between just a regular power boost and boosting power by [insert here] times.

> That was a weakened Zorc, by scaling, he is at least tier high 5-A by scaling to prime leviathan , who could eat suns.

This all depends if that legend can be taken as legitimate and not just some made up lore. Plus, additional context might be needed as to just how Leviathan devoured the sun assuming its a real event.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Alright, my bad. Had to re-read some of the past Yugioh threads to get a refresher on old arguments first before coming back to this (plus I was sick). So about Leviathan's legend about swallowing the sun, this isnt based off card lore or anything akin to that right? Because past yugioh threads that we've been in already brought up more than once about how Card Lore doesnt count for anything.
Leviathan making stars vanish however is something ive never seen brought up before. This might be something, but when you say "around the world", it makes this kind of fishy. Are you referring to Leviathan just making stars unseeable to people around the world or actually making the stars themselves vanish? A clip of this feat happening would help give context.

Absorbing most of the power of the Egyptian Gods is something, but the problem is, even if all 3 of the gods individually are 5-A, this is ignoring the tier difference. The difference between 5-A and High 5-A itself is extremely high, let alone the difference between 5-A and Low 4-C. Even with MW BEUD, I seriously doubt that being superior to 4 5-A beings is going to at all justify a tier 4 rating.

This all depends if that legend can be taken as legitimate and not just some made up lore. Plus, additional context might be needed as to just how Leviathan devoured the sun assuming its a real event.
Click to expand...
During Atem & Raphael's 2nd duel, Raphael brings up that Leviathan is going to awaken soon. The scene cuts away, & we see a translucent, sparkling, glowing form of Leviathan slowly weaving across the sky. Soon after, we see a young blonde girl in a house balcony in the countryside, who, observing, says "The stars... they're disappearing."

Found footage, but sadly, it's a shoddy Portugese dub: https://youtu.be/LS04ZjxIseY?t=7m28s (You can actually hear the girl speak in unedited Japanese.) If you use that, you may wish to turn on Auto-translate Portugese to English subtitles.

Alternatively, the Yugioh dub is available to watch on Yugioh.com in most regions.

https://www.yugioh.com/yu-gi-oh/grappling-with-a-guardian-part-1/94

Jump to 7:09

Raphael: "As soon as the great beast is revived, I'm afraid your side will no longer exist, pharoah. And all it needs to get started is one more strong soul."

Atem: "Oh no. It's true!"

After a scene with Kaiba:

Raphael: "As we speak, the most devastating creature that ever lived is waiting to rise again. All it needs now is your soul."

(Unfortunately, the dub, or at least, that upload of it, seems to omit her dialogue.)

As for the sun consumption, that's from episode 168.

This episode has foreign subs, the original Japanese audio & seemingly footage, so check it out: https://youtu.be/WzABe59dajg?t=16m33s Professor Hawkins translates the Legend. Since I don't have an English sub handy, I'll quote the YGO's Wiki summary for the article:

"after 10,000 years, the Black Dragon God which swallows the Sun shall be revived and the new Paradise shall come to happen."

Also, SQUEE!!

https://youtu.be/WzABe59dajg?t=20m8s

At that timestamp in the episode, there's an explosion feat done by some Orichalcos-affected fodder monsters! We might actually have a scaling point for fodder! :D (Unless we assume their power is all the Orichalcos's, since it's what's making them real anyway.)

Finding an English sub might help clarify stuff.

Also, it should be noted Leviathan's power isn't just the Egyptian Gods absorbed. Presumably, it has the power it grants to Dartz, the power it gives to the army of monsters, the power its absorbed from monsters, and DEFINITELY all the human souls. Dub Dartz claims it was millions of souls, & given that he's been collecting for about 10,000 years....

Not that great a feat on its own, though, unless the humans are very strong, but monster power absorbed too makes a difference as well.
 
Megaboy Prime said:
If Leviathan is confirmed a star buster, then the gods must indeed scale.
Click to expand...
The problem is, mathematically speaking, the Gods contribute less than I thought. Still a great portion, but I was surprised when I looked up the numbers just now.

Remember, the Anime Egyptian Gods get their scaling from barely fighting Zorc, who kicked their butts & also, created a solar eclipse.

Reasonably, this puts them at one third the rating for their feat, or, if you wanna put them as equals with someone who easily trounced them, we could, for the sake of argument, assume they have the same rating as him. Such a thing wouldn't go through, but for the sake of arguing to show off the scale of the math, let's do that.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Darkanine/Yu-Gi-Oh:_Zorc_vs_the_Egyptian_Gods

5.6 Yottatons

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency

5-A ranges from 2.7 Yottatons to 16.512 Ninatons. The latter of those ratings being baseline Dwarf Star Level (High 5-A, not even Small Star Level.), & the high to mid end difference from baseline to maximum 5-A is a multiplier of roughly 6,111.5 times.

One third of the rating for Zorc's feat is 1.8666666666666666666666666666667 Yottatons.

Very high 5-B rating; Literally less than 1 Yottaton away from 5-A, so it seems like a generosity to put the Gods at 5-A.

If they were equal to Zorc, then 5.6 * 3 would be how much power Leviathan gets from all 3 of them. 16.8 Yottatons total.

Now, you might've noticed that Yottatons & Ninatons aren't official units of measurement, so it's hard to find calculators for them. The simple explanation is that one Ninaton is equal to 1000 yottatons. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/625489

So 5-A's peak, 16.512 Ninatons, is 16,512 Yottatons. And The Egyptian Gods, at best, total, 16.8 Yottatons.

Meaning that if Leviathan ate even ONE baseline Dwarf Star Level star, let alone multiple, or the sun, The Egyptian Gods contribute less than one 982.857th of Leviathan's total power. (Of course, Leviathan has other power sources, too, like millions of souls from over 10,000 years, & while those contribute less to the tier overall, it still makes the difference even bigger.)

The Gods being returned to their cards, powerless or not (they were described as nearly powerless.) doesn't make much of a difference against a Tier 4.

Again, the reason the Gods beat Leviathan was all the human main cast & the monsters thinking positive thoughts to remove the darkness in their hearts; Leviathan feeds on that darkness, apparently.

So weakened in fact that after the beam clash, it was revealed Leviathan's Spirit Form was only still around because of the Darkness in Atem's Heart. (And said Leviathan could STILL smack aside Knight Timeaus.)

It was with that massive weakening that Leviathan lost its physical form to the beam clash with the Egyptian Gods, & Spirit form Leviathan lacks high feats. Turning into a darkness tornado thingy, smacking aside Timeaus, maybe keeping the island of Atlantis floating? (It technically still was, & didn't start sinking/collapsing until Leviathan was gone, IIRC.)

What the Egyptian Gods beat would be at best, the total power of Leviathan's massively weakened Spirit Form, & its Physical Form, which was probably weakened just as much, & could probably be equal to Spirit Form; They probably share the same source of power, for one.

Given that, I'd be hesitant to put Weakened Leviathan at even Tier 6. IIRC, when Combined Human was still a thing & had a tier based on the combined average power of every human who ever lived, IRL, they still only reached Tier 7 or so. Leviathan having absorbed millions of human souls might not be much better, unless these souls are a good bit above 10-B. (The monster souls contribute as well, but I'm not sure if by enough.)

Point is, the version of Leviathan the Egyptian Gods beat should be massively below them, going by its lack of feats & being deprived of its power; Even at one 10,000th of their power, the Egyptian Gods would still be somewhere in Tier 5.
 
Full power zorc = Gods >Leviathan.

Thing is, Zorc scales to Leviathan by being a far superior being of evil and doing better against the Gods.

Aka. High 5-B is the BASE feat. Not the mlst powerful one, not to mention Zorc did it casually and it was never meant to represent his full power. Zorc and the Gods should indeed scale to Leviathan'w 4-C rating.
 
"Thing is, Zorc scales to Leviathan by being a far superior being of evil and doing better against the Gods."

What's the reasoning behind that? Yes Gods beat Leviathan, but they beat an extremely weakened version of Leviathan.

Heck, Zorc himself is 5-A, likely in part for getting one-shot by Horakhty, an "At least 5-A" character, & she's rated as she is in part because of Zorc's feat as well as one-shotting Zorc.

And being casual doesn't help the feat much.

The Eclipse feat yielded 5.6 Yottatons. Even supposing each God is that powerful (Despite handily losing to the one who performed that feat.) & Zorc is as powerful as all 3 of them (16.8 Yottatons.), Zorc is STILL 982.857~ times as weak as maximum 5-A.

And to reach maximum High 5-A (Dwarf Star Level), he would have to be ~454.53x times as strong as THAT. A total multiplier of about 446,738.057. And keep in mind, that's assuming each God is equal to his eclipse feat & he's equal to their total, which means if we only base it on his eclipse feat, he's another 3 times to weak.

Zorc is literally hundreds of thousands times too weak to be even baseline 4-C, or, going by exactly his eclipse feat, slightly over ONE MILLION TIMES too weak.

Even if he was extremely casual, I'm skeptic that his true power is over 400,000 times higher, let alone over one million times higher, without anything to back it up.
 
^Yeah, season 0 Yugi was made by Toei rather than TV Tokyo, they're not related outside the source manga and franchise.
 
Season 0 is an adaptation of the original manga arcs. Of course, it does not scale to DM Anime Yugi. Specially Season 4.

Zorc is flat out stated to be stronger than Leviathan by The creator of Light. Also, it fared far better against the Gods at full power than Leviathan did against the weakened gods he already took energy from to resurrect.
 
5-A moon moving is just a feat weakened Zorc has, at this point, it is just a casual, ordonary feat that ni longer scales, since the Legendary Knight already has a feat that surpasses it 10'000x (Since he did more damage than UBEWD even when combined with several oter monsters.)

UBEWD held her own with a weakened zorc (the one that did the casual moon moving, 5-A), Knight and Gods easily surpassed it by being able to hurt leviathan more or flat out defeat it and turning it into a small lil lizard that Yugi flat out seals with rejecting the evil in his soul.

Not to mention that leviathan has shown to be able to eat stars, which will always be 4-C at the bare mininum.
 
Yeah seeing the video for myself, Leviathan definitely isnt destroying or even making any star vanish. Because while Leviathan slowly travels across the worlds sky, all it is doing is just sparkling. And as soon as that girl says the stars are "vanishing", the scene immediately cuts to Tea and Tristian carrying Joey's soul-less body and stars are still perfectly viewable in the sky. Not only there but for the rest of the episode. So im going to have to say this is just a little girl who doesnt know what she's talking about.

We also get some issues and inconsistencies with Leviathan's sun consumption. If the legend about Leviathan is speaking in a past tense, as in Leviathan has eaten the sun before, then this would be hyperbole and for clear reason. Because if Leviathan has swallowed the sun before, why is there a sun still in place? Did it just get re-created on its own? There would be no su if Leviathan had actually consumed it before. This is no different than Solgaleo's legend of being "the beast that devours the sun", which we also treat as hyperbole since if he ate the sun, there would be sun. So Leviathan's is just as flowerly as this.
 
The girl is literally seeing leviathan making stars dissapear.

We have been thru this for over a year, Kukui.
 
I think the feat is legitmate too.

Not that it scales to the Gods however, it was already pointed out that they only defeated a massively weakened Leviathan.

When did the Creator of Light mention Zorc > Leviathan, heck, when did the Creator mention anything about season 4?
 
Megaboy Prime said:
The girl is literally seeing leviathan making stars dissapear.
We have been thru this for over a year, Kukui.
Click to expand...
No she isnt. Did you see the actual scene?

Literally a second after she says that, stars are very clearly still in the sky. Why would stars still be there if Leviathan made them vanish just right before?
 
SomebodyData said:
I think the feat is legitmate too.
Not that it scales to the Gods however, it was already pointed out that they only defeated a massively weakened Leviathan.

When did the Creator of Light mention Zorc > Leviathan, heck, when did the Creator mention anything about season 4?
Click to expand...
It could be that it hasn't eaten ALL the stars in the sky. Just in places we've seen.

And calling the girl an unreliable narrator seems like a flawed argument to me. She appears in one scene, & never in any other part of the series. Yes, she's a child, but her only appearance is to deliver exposition.

If a character's only appearance & purpose in an entire series is to exposit something, it seems rational to take that at face-value, because it means the writers are trying to tell us something & I don't think that's a scene where they're trying to misinform us.

I do agree that swallowing the sun in the distant past as a tier 4 feat seems like hyperbole without any way to explain how the sun is still around now, though.

Incidentally, given that Leviathan has absorbed monsters before, & even outside duels, Orichalcos-controlled monsters are shown, I wonder if it'd be worth calc-ing monster feats & then approximating how many Leviathan has absorbed. Probably wouldn't contribute to any of its forms, though.

Also, if my memory serves, the positive thoughts thing to purge the darkness in hearts, the doing of which weakened Leviathan may also have powered up the Egyptian Gods. Supposing a higher AP is enough for a new key/form, looking for evidence for this MIGHT be worthwhile. Maybe.

Lastly, I also want to know. When did Horakhty mention Leviathan? She's a character of manga-origin, so even in the anime, why would she mention an anime only villain that was already defeated?
 
The problem with that though is it seems to be incredibly selective and strange for Leviathan to only destroy stars from the perspective of one area of the world instead of all areas, especially since Leviathan was traveling all over the world in that moment. So why would all other areas of the planet be able to see stars except one small part of it where this girl is?

If it was destroying stars, theres no reason to say it would only so to the point where one part of the earth can see stars and the other cannot.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The problem with that though is it seems to be incredibly selective and strange for Leviathan to only destroy stars from the perspective of one area of the world instead of all areas, especially since Leviathan was traveling all over the world in that moment. So why would all other areas of the planet be able to see stars except one small part of it where this girl is?
If it was destroying stars, theres no reason to say it would only so to the point where one part of the earth can see stars and the other cannot.
Click to expand...
But other people were reacting to the sight of it. It was visible in multiple parts of the world I'd presume it's meant to show that it's consuming stars in all of the locations shown.
 
Putting aside the legitmacy of the feat, the Leviathan doesn't scale onto anyone but itself. Megaboy hasn't provided any scans of Hotakhty stating it was inferior to Zorc, and the battle between the Leviathan and the Gods was one where the Leviathan was greatly weakened.
 
Leviathan was awoken fully by absorbing the souls of the various duelists and also absorbing the strenght of the god cards. There is no evidence that he was not at full power. Gonna post hotakhy scans in a bit.
 
Imaginym said:
But other people were reacting to the sight of it. It was visible in multiple parts of the world I'd presume it's meant to show that it's consuming stars in all of the locations shown.
Click to expand...
And while people were reacting to it, the stars in the sky were shown to be perfectly fine. Not a single star was ever shown to vanish at all.

7:33 onward. From when Leviathan is shown to fly across the world to when Tristan and Tea carry Joey's body, all the stars in the sky are completely unaffected. The latter scene being after the girl said stars were vanishing.
 
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