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The Yu-Gi-Oh! Thread to end 'em all.

Im pretty sure that the last time I was on this, I gave a pretty concrete argument as to why 4-A Shadi was considered an outlier.

But ive been away from this site for months and given the number of threads, im not about to go re-look through them.
 
Yeah dude I agree with you on 4kids yugioh but acting like that is why the other threads died, why that guy was banned and, why people cringe at the sight of Yugioh content revision threads. Stop that.
 
Banning me again? I swear i have not cursed anyone so far not been rude to you, data.

Unlike last time, i wont give you or any admin an excuse to ban me, so i will just step off from the thread and let the people discuss this.

Joker (persona) did make a jump from tier 8 to tier 4-A in a couple of palaces, so, not really an outlier imo.
 
That's... Do I have to quote your own comments?

Okay, I guess.

@Everyone Well like I told Mega, this would require a much bigger thread discussing dubs and extended content. Do you guys wanna make it?
 
Passing by, i'm neutral about this, but i say it has really been quite since the last time i saw Kukui and Megaboy.
 
In season 4, a combined blast of Ultimste blue eyes and multiple other monsters barely damaged leviathan, and yugi did more damage by multiplyig his knight's strenght by 10, 000 times thanks to Multiply.

Ultimate blue eyes managed to stagger a weakened Zorc, that could cause tier 5 eclipses in a short time frame (feat that is being used rn.) So, by scaling, all the god tiers should havr an at least 10,000x increase.
 
Im pretty sure "10000 x increase" is being taken out of context and is not supposed to be used like an actual multiplier.

But i'll wait and see what Somebody says on that before going forward.
 
It is not taken out of context. It is literally on this video. https://youtu.be/X-smfOLL6O0 (1:40)

"Ataca con la fuerza de 10,000 caballeros!" > attack with the strenght of ten thousand knights.

Yugi uses multiply on his legendary knight, and his power is increased by 10,000x, doing a far better job at hurting Leviathan than Ultimate Blue eyes, who managed to stagger a weakened tier 5 Zorc.
 
I dont think your understanding what my point was dude.

By "out of context", im saying that the "1000x" power boost is not to literally apply to a 5-A rating and make it increase by some multiplier, like if Goku were to use Kaioken. And by showing me the video, that makes this even more questionable. "Strength of ten thousand knights"? That also doesnt sound like its actually being increased by a numerical boost, but is just a regular power boost. "strength of 10,000 knights" isnt quantifiable unless im missing something here.
 
Dude. The monster is literally a legendary knight. https://www.yugioh.com/yu-gi-oh/rise-of-the-great-beast-part-1/76

Here is the episode in dub english, so you cannot use dubs as an argument. He tells the knight to absorb Kuriboh's multiply ability (spell card that previously multiploed kurboh into 10,000 kuriboh against pegasus) and to increase his power by 10,000.

You are the one missing context and you hve not read the threads i have linked above.
 
I actually agree with Megaboy on the 10000x thing here.

Only... your scaling is way off. List all the steps and you'll see how. Unless of course, you mean the Knight (With Multiply) is the sole God tier.
 
The gods killed Leviathan (most of it) so they are indeed above 10,000x Knight.

So... Season 4 scaling


Gods > Leviathan >>>> 10,000x knight >Rest of the monsters from the DM world = Ultimate Blue eyes and the rest of the monsters summoned by the heroes
 
Okay then... Here are the easier things:

  • The Millennium Puzzle created a realm with countless stars (Millennium World) in one of it's countless rooms, which implies the pocket dimension is a lot bigger. It's also described as endless in S5 and Alexander says the same thing in Capsule Monsters. Now there are statements implying the millennium World is actually a separate timeline... But I need to track this down. This is also consistent with what GX implied plus Blue-Eyes & Zorcs feat affecting the time of both realities.
  • The above scales to even S1 Millennium Item users due to statements from S5 that only those who have strength comparable to the items can wield their magic... and the Items are at least comparable to eaxh other ... Which due to even Yami Yugi utilizing it in the beginning of the series can do it gets a lot more consistent.
  • Leviathan at least thana portion of it's strength had the power to destroy the Spirit World.
I'm focusing on Yugioh DM. And Dueling Spirit is a energy source similar to Ki in the sense it can be sensed and utilized for power.... GX & 5DS heavily imply it in 2 arcs for each, and even the games show it.
 
Uh, since I've been going on the manga for a while, I have to ask. What specific incarnations of Yugi does this apply to, and what level of continuity does it share with other entries in the series?
 
About god tiers.

1. Isn't Zorc's eclipse feat anime only?

2. Didn't the Egyptian Gods struggle to fight, if not get stomped by Zorc?

3. Multiply on Legendary Knight Timeaus cloned him into 10,000 Knights if I recall the visuals correctly. I'm not sure that's the same as 10,000 times the power; 10,000 grenades isn't the same as one grenade with the power of 10,000.

4. I'm a bit opposed to The Legendary Knights scaling to Leviathan. It's kinda Plot-Induced Stupidity because their feats are worse than Leviathan's. To elaborate on their clashing:

A. In the past, Dragon Timeaus beam-clashed with Leviathan while injured. It & Hermos & Critias were later sealed away. IIRC, the explosion was around City Block level.

B. Modern day pre-awakening Leviathan & Dragon Timeaus clashed with a tornado-like beam clash.

C. Greater than Infinity ATK Legendary Knight Fusion vs Divine Serpent. Even if it's the same as Leviathan, ATK alone isn't a reliable power indicator, as it's an in-universe game mechanic, neither character has any other indication of Infinite (3-A) power (Outside of scaling to each other, which is an invalid premise.) & it'd be a huge outlier compared against their other feats.

Also, in the case of Infinite ATK Fusion, the premise for its Infinite ATK is mathematically invalid; It was achieved through PIS & multiplying a finite amount of ATK in a finite amount of time & then fusing. So even if Infinite ATK or Infinite ATK +Whatever was a basis for tier (Which it's not), it isn't even an accurate rating; The maths doesn't work.

D. The above 10,000 Knight Timeaus attacking Leviathan. Leviathan was barely damaged & regenerated, & later one-shotted pretty much every monster with Danmaku, Timeaus included.

E. After Leviathan lost its body & its strength sources, Knight Timeaus leapt out of Yugi's Duel Disk... and immediately got smacked away by said immensely weakened Leviathan.


Where Timaeus, Critias & Hermos damage ground, shoot tornados, & are ended by City Block Level Explosions....

Leviathan:

1. Modern Day pre-awakening Leviathan shot a tornado to clash with Dragon Timeaus.

2. Had the power of the Egyptian Gods & the souls of millions of humans giving it strength.

3. The seal its power summons splits clouds & its magic can summon lightning.

4. Shortly before awakening, was eating stars.

5. After awakening, made an immense tidal wave, raised an island and made a 5-C storm.

6. Easily defeated an army of monsters, then beam clashed with the Egyptian Gods after losing their power. However, the latter was what got its physical body destroyed.

Scaling The Legendary Knights/Dragons to Leviathan is PIS, because its feats regularly outclass theirs & it had the power of the Egyptian Gods absorbed for most of the arc. It lost in large part due to the human main cast & monsters thinking positive thoughts to remove the darkness in their heart which it fed on.

AND EVEN WHEN IT ONLY HAD ATEM'S HEART'S DARKNESS AND HAD LOST ITS PHYSICAL FROM, LEVIATHAN STILL SMACKED AWAY LEGENDARY KNIGHT TIMEAUS.

I REALLY think scaling The Legendary Knights/Dragons to Leviathan is PiS. The Gods less so because it usually had their power absorbed, but even before that, there were legends about it swallowing the sun, & pre-awakening, it ate numerous stars, visible from several places around the world.

The Egyptian Gods scaling to Leviathan would mostly be because it lost the Egyptian God's powers (Thus, theirs was a portion of its power.) & the strength it got from darkness in hearts, massively weakening it.
 
Since Somebody thinks the 10000x boost is okay, i'll drop that. But I still disagree with tier 4 anything for now.

I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow though because I have some assignments to catch up with. After I get home from school, i'll dive back into this.
 
The knights DO NOT scale to leviathan. 10,000x Knight's best feat is doing more damage to Leviathan than ultimate blue eyes ever could, since Ultimate Blue eyes managed to stagger a weakened zorc.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Since Somebody thinks the 10000x boost is okay, i'll drop that. But I still disagree with tier 4 anything for now.
I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow though because I have some assignments to catch up with. After I get home from school, i'll dive back into this.
Click to expand...
For clarification, I support Tier 4 Leviathan but nothing else because Leviathan achieved that through legends of it swallowing the sun & later on, eating stars in modern day pre-awakening, while only ultimately being beaten after being massively weakened. Before that weakening, it easily one-shot armies of monsters, including several of those used by Yugi, Kaiba & Joey.

Its physical form was destroyed post weakening by the gods, & weaker forms of Leviathan clashed with the Knights with little damage to it, & it was shown even a weakened, body-less Leviathan could beat Knight Timeaus.
 
God Cards >>>>Prime Leviathan>>>> 10,000x Knight >>>> Ultimate Blue eyes = Weakened Zorc (tier 5)

So, The knigjt should at least be 10,000x Weakened Zorc. (Tier 5), which should result around low 4-C
 
Megaboy Prime said:
God Cards >>>>Prime Leviathan>>>> 10,000x Knight >>>> Ultimate Blue eyes = Weakened Zorc (tier 5)
So, The knigjt should at least be 10,000x Weakened Zorc. (Tier 5), which should result around low 4-C
Click to expand...
Modern Day Leviathan post awakening had absorbed the power of the Egyptian Gods, & even when their cards were retrieved, they were stated to be nearly powerless. Leviathan had to be further weakened by everyone thinking positive thoughts & removing the darkness in their own hearts to weaken it.

Leviathan at its peak being weaker than something it absorbed most or all of the power of is silly.

This is sillier when its Tier 4 feats outclass the Gods, which scale to Tier 5 Zorc (Who himself, was one-shot by Horakhty.) for barely combatting Zorc before getting rekt, & Zorc being At least 5-A with his eclipse feat.
 
Well. Prime / Full powet Zorc should indeed kill Ultimate Blue ryes with no difficulty at all since Zorc is considered to be superior to Leviathan.

Its just that the knight is mathematically 10,000x superior than this same ultimate blue eyes (by a large margin since her attack was combined with multiple other monsters) that could stagger this 5-A weakened Zorc, so it should still reach low tier 4.
 
Megaboy Prime said:
Well. Prime / Full powet Zorc should indeed kill Ultimate Blue ryes with no difficulty at all since Zorc is considered to be superior to Leviathan.
Its just that the knight is mathematically 10,000x superior than this same ultimate blue eyes that could stagger this 5-A weakened Zorc, so it should still reach low tier 4.
Click to expand...
How do you figure Zorc beats Leviathan when his best feat is lower?

Also, even if you're 10,000 times 5-A, you're not doing much better than the result of consuming multiple stars visible around the world.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency If you're peak 5-A, you're baseline High 5-A. The high-end to low-end ratio for High 5-A, Dwarf Star Level is ~454.53x. Next is Low 4-C, Small Star Level. High end to low end ratio: ~18.14x And from baseline 4-C (Star Level) to maximum Star Level ~6.71x

454.53 * 18.14 = 8,245.1742 Which times is 55,325.118882

So even IF Zorc is maximum high 5-A, getting to peak 4-C needs a boost of over 55 thousand and 300 times as much. I'd be confident eating multiple stars visible from around Earth yields a better result than that.

(There's also the issue that the DOMA arc may not have accounted for power levels shown in the next arc, & that it's unlikely Kisara's incredibly powerful spirit was contributing to the BEUD in that battle.)

Also, there's issue with scaling The Legendary Knights to Leviathan, as detailed above. Heck, Timeaus specifically was easily slapped away by no physical form Leviathan that had little else than the Darkness in Atem's Heart.

If 1 of them can barely hurt it, I'd question 10,000 of them hurting it. To compare, I'd be skeptical of 10,000 softballs breaking a brick wall.

10,000 of something you're massively superior to even while hugely drained hurting you seems questionable. So I'd doubt ONE Timeaus being stronger than BEUD.
 
Of course not. One timaius is weaker than ultimate Blue eyes.


BUT Timaius increased 10,000x did more damage to leviathan than her. While now tier 4 seems to be out of such multiplier's range, it still seems like a impressive feat.
 
It MIGHT get there, depending on how far into 5-A Zorc's eclipse feat is, & how much BEUD scales to that. But hypothetically, if it's only around base 5-A, the high-end to low-end ratio for 5-A is ~6111.5x.

So a 10,000 times multiplier as a 5-A WOULD get you to High 5-A (Dwarf Star Level) at the very least.

But 10,000 of one dude being 10,000 times as strong is skeptical.

And it being Timeaus kinda hurts because it got matched & has even been beaten by weaker forms of Leviathan, with most of Timeaus's feats being AT BEST, Tier 7. & that's being generous, as the best I know of are tornado breath & a city block level explosion that a weaker Leviathan was responsible for at last half of, & which Timeaus didn't take well.

Meanwhile, even sealed Leviathan can manipulate clouds when summoning the Seal of Orichalcos. Thus my issue. Yes, what was shown was Timaeus harming Leviathan.... But since the Knights have been matched or beaten by weaker Leviathan forms, it's inconsistent for them to harm "peak" Leviathan.

Even if you put Timaeus at maximum High 7-A (Mountain Level), it would take a 22,785 times boost to get to maximum Country Level (6-B). I don't think a 10,000 times boost is enough.

Also, IIRC, Timeaus & the others were one-shot when Leviathan counterattacked with its danmaku anyway.

Generally, our Wiki is against glass cannons unless their AP is disconnected from their own body; Glass cannons being characters with AP significantly greater than their durability.

Timeaus having the AP to harm peak Leviathan kinda doesn't work with the feats as well as the fact that he was one shot by Leviathan.

Meanwhile, peak Leviathan made a 5-C storm right after awakening.
 
I think you got it a bit wrong. Multiply Timaius did do more damage to Leviathan than UBEWD did even when combined with other monsters. So, him just scaling to tier 7 seems to be a bit of a downplay, since Yugioh numbers seem to imply Timaius is stronger than all of those monsters combined when he is made ten thousand times stronger.

I think High 5-A is reasonable if we do consider UBEWD to be comparable or able to stagger Weakened 5-A Zorc enough.
 
So among other things, one thing to conclude is that even if making 9,999 more Timeaus was a 10,000 times power multiplier, Timeaus's feats don't support it scaling to Leviathan, & The Legendary Knights/Dragons probably aren't higher than Tier 7. And even if you're maximum Tier 7, a 10,000 times power multiplier only gets you less than halfway to 6-B. Nowhere close to the At Least 5-A you'd need to outmatch BEUD.
 
Well, even 10,000x Knight is not comparable to Leviathan, it just managed to do a bit more damage than UBEWD could.
 
Yes, it did damage Leviathan, that was shown in the show. I don't doubt that. But unfortunately, power level inconsistencies happen. Our Wiki has the terms "outlier" & "PIS" because sometimes a character does something way out of their capacity for the sake of entertainment or plot.

Such things happen within the canon, but they're called outliers because we document what are a character's most consistent statistics, and such showings are statistical outliers, for higher or lower.

Like when Captain America hurts Galactus, or Thanos gets arrested by regular, human police officers, or Darkseid falls down stairs, or Goku gets cut by a bullet, something that's only managed to annoy him with the sting, let alone injure him since when he was a KID.

Just because they happened in canon doesn't mean they're statistically consistent with the other showings of that characters', which means we may not include them if they are TOO inconsistent.

Also, this happened outside of Milennium World, before that arc started, & without Kisara's involvement, so it's questionable to assume it's a 5-A BEUD when it's real for a different reason, probably has a different source of power (Orichalcos making it real vs soul of user.) & the writers/shows may not have even been aware of/accounting for BEUD being a match for Zorc.
 
I see. The the best they could hope for is 5-C huh. Anysays, since Multiply was used as it should in DM, i think it is safe to assume it does scale to all of the potential hax Yugi has on his deck.
 
I think The Knights getting to 5-C from Leviathan's storm doesn't make much sense because it's just as inconsistent as scaling them for harming Leviathan, who one shot them anyway. Never mind that Leviathan is probably higher than 5-C for absorbing the Egyptian Gods & its Tier 4 stuff.

Also, apparently, my memory was wrong about the rating for Timeaus's feat.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:WeeklyBattles/Yu-Gi-Oh:_Timeaus_and_Leviathan_make_an_Explosio

But even with tornado breath feats & stuff, I think The Legendary Knights/Dragons would have trouble getting far into Tier 7.
 
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