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The Witcher 8-C+ upgrades and some stuff to add

I mean, it's kinda gonna be super tough to go into the boss fight without potions.
 
There are a few takeaways from the cutscenes and scripted events in Blood and Wine. Base Detlaff is able to slightly overpower Base Regis while the two are grappling. Post Mutations Geralt intercepts a strike, throws Dettlaff's arm back while he was resisting, and slashes him across the abdomen. This happens at 1:45. Post Mutations Geralt was also able to overwhelm Monster Detlaff to the point he was barely able to fight before getting bisected. This happens around 8:30. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Td_aETp4I. Base Detlaff is superior to Geralt. Regis has to save Geralt from what could've been a fatal attack. This happens at 3:10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7EjSI03ZiA.

The overall scaling chain would be Geralt (Post Mutations) > Dettlaff (Monster Form) > Detlaff >/= Regis > Geralt (Pre Mutations)

At least High 8-C, likely far higher: Unseen Elder

High 8-C: Geralt (Post Mutations), Dettlaff (Monster Form)

At least 8-C: Vilgefortz

8-C: Everyone else
 
"Quen can remove fire from the user's body"

"Quen can remove poison effects from the user's body"

These aren't resistances, this is Purification.
 
KLOL506 said:
Quen keeps removing it at a constant rate so IDK
Click to expand...
Still purification, resistance entails negating or being unaffected, not removing.
 
KLOL506 said:
Well Heightened Tolerance already gives him Resistance to Poisons so eh
Click to expand...
Not my point.

I'm not commenting on Geralt actually having resistances, just that Quen does not provide them.
 
M3X said:
You misread somethings. First of all, yes, it does imply that high-level Mages can do Low 7-B magic using another spell. It was never stated that weather manipulation was their strongest magic. Triss, a high-level mage attacked a group of members of the Wild Hunt with one of the strongest members (Imlerith). Your point that she can't do the same with another spells, cool, based in what? The energy she put on a Low 7-B attack would be the same using another attack. That's called magic. And the wiki already accept this kind of assumption.

Your Eredin part of the text confirms what I am saying. Nothing said that they can use the same energy for normal spells, correct. But where it said the opposite? I mean, it is a two side argument here. It wasn't stated they can, and it wasn't stated they can't. But everything show they can
Click to expand...
Actually weather manipulation has been stated to be especially complicated. This includes summoning a lightning bolt that can only kill 5 people in a mob. The Merigold Hailstorm incident from Lady of the Lake:

'Help me, Yennefer, 'Triss stopped for a moment. 'help me. Let's cast Alzur's Thunder...'

That will kill five, thought Yennefer. Then the rest will tear us apart. But okay, Triss. I will not run away. You will not see me run.

She joined in the enchantment. And they shouted in duet.

The people stared at them blankly, staring, but quickly recovered. They again began throwing stones at the sorceresses. Triss felt one whizz pass her head, but did not flinch.

It won't work, thought Yennefer. The spell will not work. We cannot conjure up something as complicated as Alzur's Thunder. It was said that Alzur had a voice like a bell and superior diction. And we are babbling and crying the words and melody...

She was ready to stop the chant and use her remaining strength to concentrate on some other spell, something to teleport them, or to distract the charging mob - if only for a second - with something unpleasant. But it turned out it was not necessary.

The sky darkened suddenly with clouds over the city. The shadows spread quickly. And a cold wind rose.

'Oh,' said Yennefer. 'It seems that you did it...'

Hey they are mages who can do weather manipulation! Why can't they nuke the peasants with their entire town with a regular casual magic attack? Maybe because they can't and the magic system doesn't allow it, despite being skewed in favor of weather manipulation feats?

Magic systems differ. Just because it is relatively energy-effective to harness the power of Chaos to manipulate the weather, it does not mean that the power of Chaos is equally effective at creating spells that do direct damage (weather manipulation is not good at this either).

Triss casted a spell that randomly rains many fireballs over an area (at least one almost hit Geralt), and most of the fireballs missed. So it even makes sense for Triss to hold back in order to save her strength.

She can't do tier 7 direct damage based on the fact that every single magical feat that has been calculated is below tier 7 direct damage.

M3X said:
And... wrong again. You can't just understand that Imlerith isn't a Tier 7 character or whatever you are thinking. Imlerith is Geralt level character, potrayed to be on this level. He tanked a Low 7-B attack. What should we call that? The famous Outlier on its pure form.
Click to expand...
I never advocated that Imlerith should be tier 7.

What I am saying is that the best explanation for the cutscene is:

  • Fireballs coming down randomly are not tier 7.
  • Imlerith is not tier 7.
  • Quen Active Shield is not tier 7.
Outliers are claimed when there are irreconcilably inconsistencies. However the explanation I am calling for is internally consistent without outliers, and is therefore better and should be taken.

M3X said:
Oh, good that you mentioned the heat of the attack. The heat of Triss' attack couldn't do nothing to Imlerith's armor, but Igni could damage it? (You can see the heat thst igni did was almost enough to melt it). And even damage Imlerith. This make Igni > Triss' magic. But this is impossible given that on every source, signals are called "simple magic" that doesn't need an amount of power like Mages magic. It doesn't make any sense.

You ate just using inconsistencies as an argument
Click to expand...
Couldn't damage Imlerith's armor 'while' he was blocking with his shield. Which is why I said Imlerith guarding with his shield scales to Quen Active Shield.

Imlerith was mostly damaged because Igni went through the holes in his visor, not because the tempreture of his helmet baked his head.

Dante Demon Killah said:
The justification for giving them Low 7-B can also be found on ED page

"These feats share an energy source and relative potency to other magical abilities, merely spreading that potency over a wider range. "

Take for example Triss's Hailstorm, it is stated to be a powerful spell that creates such event, and for that, Triss needs enough energy to use it and cast it, it's something that she has Magic Power to do, that's why it scales to her ranged attacks, they having Tier 7 descruction or not is irrelevant via our standards
Click to expand...
It is not as simple as: "insert more power for better/stronger spells". Magic in Witcher is described as chaos, art, and science simulantanously. Spells often require specific complicated incanations and/or rituals.

Triss Merigold's Hailstorm is a good example; an injury in Triss' mouth made her speak gibberish for her incanation, which accidently turned a lightning strike spell into a larger AoE rain of hail.

Despite being able to harness chaos to do weather manipulation, neither Triss or Yennefer could do spells that can nuke or scare away peasants with tier 7 direct attacks, in fact their second option was to open a portal to escape.
 
Abstractions said:
KLOL506 said:
Well Heightened Tolerance already gives him Resistance to Poisons so eh
Click to expand...
Not my point.
I'm not commenting on Geralt actually having resistances, just that Quen does not provide them.
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking about that either, just saying that Heightened Tolerance makes Quen having Resistance to Poisons as redundant because Geralt already has it by default.
 
I'm iffy on tier 7 too. There's nothing in that area other than weather manipulation spells. Do remember that mages aren't too powerful and can get taken down by normal soldiers, which wouldn't have been possible if they just nuked them with tier 7 spells. Sodden Hill happened, Witch Hunters happened.

Also, summoning a lightning storm is tier 7, getting hit by and tanking its lightning isn't. Same goes for Triss throwing fireballs which isn't tier 7 in the first place. Different spells don't scale to each other so comparing a storm to Triss' fireballs should not be a thing. The energy consumption is also inconsistent and seems to be based on practice and proficiency. For instance, Azar Javed and Jacques de Aldersburg can casually perform necromancy but Yennefer was almost fainting while temporarily reanimating a corpse even after absorbing the life energy of the Garden of Freya. A djinn was used to teleport that ship into the mountain but on another occasion, a random mage teleported his entire huge ass wizard tower into Skellige. Different offensive spells should have different tiers honestly.
 
What I suggest is get the best non-storm offensive magic feat (likely Sabrina's Melgar's Fire) calced and tier spells as Varies from 8-C to Tier X with offensive spells, Tier 7 via Environmental Destruction.
 
Avallac'h destroying the forest in Skellige would be worth looking into. I agree with not scaling offensive magic to storm creation in this case.
 
Why is everyone forgetting about the encounters with djinns?

as i remember correctly each time they were encountered there needed to be a powerful sorceress to just be on par with it or even neutralize the djinns

and a djinn nearly destroyed an entire city once and djinns were even stated to have the power to move mountains
 
Djinn are more powerful than mages, which is why they are sought out; taming a dragon doesn't mean that the tamer has more raw power than the dragon.

So here are some magical feats we can scale from:

Triss mentioned that if Sources don't get training to control their powers, they sometimes cause half a town to blow up, and Geralt said that he saw Ciri's mother almost reduce an entire castle to ash.

This should probably be the top-tier for mages since not every mage is a source; if we can't scale to something else, using "At most" should be fine.

"A Source," she explained coldly, "has no control over their skills, no command over them. They are a medium, something like a transmitter. Unknowingly they get in touch with energy, unknowingly they convert it. And when they try to control it, when they strain trying to form the Signs perhaps, nothing comes of it. And nothing will come of it, not just after hundreds of attempts but after thousands. It is one characteristic of a Source. Then, one day, a moment comes when the Source does not exert itself, does not strain, is daydreaming or thinking about cabbage and sausages, playing dice, enjoying themselves in bed with a partner, picking their nose… and suddenly something happens. A house might go up in flames. Or sometimes, half a town goes up."
"You're exaggerating, Merigold."

"Lambert." Geralt released his medallion and rested his hands on the table. "First, stop calling Triss 'Merigold'. She has asked you a number of times not to. Second, Triss is not exaggerating. I saw Ciri's mother, Princess Pavetta, in action with my own eyes. I tell you, it was really something. I don't know if she was a Source or not, but no one suspected she had any power at all until, save by a hair's breadth, she almost reduced the royal castle of Cintra to ashes."
~ Blood of the Elves​
Vilgefortz lightning attack shook an entire castle to its foundation; he is strong enough to defeat Yennefer with low effort, but she managed to deflect his lightning attack. If it yields something good it can even upgrade Geralt, as he was able to slice through Vilgefortz fire attack with Zoltan's rune-enhanced sword (which can cut through chainmail like it is wool)

He saw Vilgefortz extend a hand. He dived aside and flattened himself against the floor behind the base of a column. There was a boom so loud it hurt their ears, and the whole castle was shaken to its foundations.
...

Geralt rushed at him, wiping plaster from his face. Vilgefortz turned his eyes towards him and a hand from which flames exploded with a roar. The Witcher instinctively shielded himself with his sword. The rune-covered dwarven blade protected him, astonishingly, cutting the stream of fire in half.
~ Lady of the Lake​
There is a high-level spell which can part a body of water. The range of spells in the tabletop rpg is toned down for balancing purpose compared to the game, but manipulating 10m x 100m x 10m of water should be the minimum.

Part Water
  • STA Cost: 25
  • Effect: Part Water allows you to create an open area in a body of water, up to 10m by 100m by 10m. Fish, monsters, and other creatures in the water are swept back with the water. You can pass in and out of the wall as easily as stepping in or out of a body of water without disturbing the walls. If used while in the water the the effect pushes the caster aside as well. The area can be summoned in any orientation, even vertical.
  • Range: 10m Radius
  • Duration: Active (6 STA)
  • Defense: None
~ The Witcher Role-Playing Game​
Also, some misc stuff:

Mages can ignore durability by using a portal to slice their opponent. (And people wonder why Geralt and other Witchers hate portals)

Standing Portal
  • STA Cost: 22
  • Effect: Standing Portal creates a 1m by 2m floating portal up to 10m from you. Stepping through this portal teleports you anywhere you can recall. The portal can transport anything that fits through it. If you end the portal while something is partially through, the portal slices the object (or creature) in two. The person is counted as being dismembered, as per the Critical Wound. You can create a portal to a location you don't know as per Teleportation.
  • Range: N/A
  • Duration: Active (6 STA)
  • Defense: None
~ The Witcher Role-Playing Game​
Apparently there is a speed-of-light magic attack that can be dodged. Relativistic reactions? Possible outlier?

Mirror Effect
  • STA Cost: 25
  • Effect: Mirror Effect creates a blinding beam of light which does 10d6 damage. This laser can be dodged and blocked (destroying whatever blocks it) but it cannot be displaced by wind and can only be parried by a reflective surface, which still takes damage. The reflected laser goes off in a random direction. This spell uses the rays of the sun and cannot be used where the sun's rays can't penetrate. By the light of the moon or on overcast days, it does half damage.
  • Range: 20m
  • Duration: 2d6 Rounds
  • Defense: Dodge, Block, or Magical Shield
~ The Witcher Role-Playing Game​
More support for lightning-speed in Witcher as characters can dodge natural lightning.

Alzur's Thunder
  • STA Cost: 15
  • Effect: Alzur's Thunder allows you to shoot a powerful lightning bolt at a target which does 8d6 damage and has a 75% chance of setting the target on fire. Alzur's Thunder can travel in a straight line through targets. For every target it passes through the damage to the next target decreases by 1d6.
  • Range: 25m
  • Duration: Immediate
  • Defense: Dodge or Magical Shield
~ The Witcher Role-Playing Game​
Lightning Storm
  • STA Cost: 25
  • Effect: Lightning Storm allows you to create a lightning storm. Lightning strikes randomly around the area. Anyone (except you) in the area has a 35% chance of being struck by lightning. If they miss this roll, they must make a Dodge/ Escape check or take 8d6 damage to the torso and have a 75% chance to be ignited.
  • Duration: Active (6 STA)
  • Defense: Dodge or Magical Shield
~ The Witcher Role-Playing Game​
 
Alzur's Thunder and Lightning Storm was already accepted a few threads back
 
There is a general consensus regarding High 8-C with B&W upgrades, but there is still discussion on whether it should give Geralt a new key.

Quen's low 7-B durability is under discussion so its validity might change, but it is currently valid even if I think that it is ridiculous and poorly justified.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
There is a general consensus regarding High 8-C with B&W upgrades, but there is still discussion on whether it should give Geralt a new key.
Quen's low 7-B durability is under discussion so its validity might change, but it is currently valid even if I think that it is ridiculous and poorly justified.
Click to expand...
What about his lifting strength, is probably the most vague thing about Geralt. For him, fit better class 5 or class 25?
 
Class 25 seems more appropriate IMHO and prolly even the rock trolls would be decently above Class 5 just by moving.
 
Not like we have a choice without adding one. But I'd suggest to make a sandbox first to iron out any kinks.
 
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