The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

[Peter1129]

For real. People have been complaining that this SCW doesn’t give any new information whatsoever. I guess it’s best to just wait for the next databook that goes into detail about the characters. No clue which databook those are called though. But I know it’s probably not the SCW.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I guess Uchuusen or whatever else might be better. One Uchuusen file I got went somewhat in-depth with some of the characters, but oddly omitted Bullton and Greeza. So yeah, hopefully the other books give better details because this is just maddening.

 

[Peter1129]

Wow I just went to check the UGF2 stuff and damn they didn't even explain how much stronger Tartarus amped Belial and Tregear were. Like the Taiga SCW at least said that Tregear was overall weaker than Tri-Strium Taiga or whatever but the Z SCW doesn’t even do that. I was hoping they at least say Tartarus amped Belial is stronger than the original Belial at the time of Omega Armageddon but nope no new information whatsoever. Heck they didn’t even explain if the Gua Siblings were amped by Tartarus when they fought the Ultra Brothers. Also according to the SCW the Gua Siblings are the Spectre versions even though they came from the past which makes no sense at all.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Exactly. That simple nugget of information could have really gone a long way.

Ah well, I decided to revisit the episodes for even anything. And I think the subs may be wrong about one part in Episode 15. It may not help much, but apparently Riku does not say "sustain", but rather, "成立/seiritsu", and that word translates to "formation; establishment; materialization; coming into existence". Which means what he said isn't so much that Bullton is needed to sustain the universe, but rather, the universe cannot exist without Bullton. And we know Bullton's reach gets to time and space as a whole going by that context so I might bring this up.

 

[Peter1129]

Ehh if you want to give it a go I won’t stop you. But considering how strict the Low 2-C rules are nowadays I really doubt that will give Bullton Low 2-C.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

It's worth a try. On another note, I feel like it's criminally stupid that we were stuck with "At least 3-A, likely Low 2-C" on the sole reason that there were uncertainties about the universe being a spacetime continuum.

 

[Peter1129]

Honestly I feel like we are actually kinda lucky we even got likely Low 2-C right now. Cause like in one of the Low 2-C standard threads I think they said now in order to be Low 2-C you need to destroy the past, present, future of an entire universe or something. And I think one of the staff said that the bomb doing it overtime doesn’t do it much favors on it being straight up Low 2-C. So I’m just happy we even got Low 2-C even if it’s just a likely.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I know, I'm just getting it off my chest in a less critical manner. I mean, pretty sure we've had this conversation a while back too, so I guess it's just become a periodical thing now. Also, the timeframe counterargument might be a non-factor the next time a CRT about it is made since going by everything said by the SCW, the effects of the collapse itself might take a while, but it's no dispute that the explosion itself already carried the power since that's what caused the dimensional faults.

 

[Peter1129]

I see. Well good luck if you do make another CRT on it. I’ll just watch how things turn out.

 

[Peter1129]

Also Mr. Bambu has started to reply to the Hudra calc. He's currently asking about the contradiction thing. I already answered the question so if nothing else goes wrong we should have the calc evaluated in a few days.

Edit: Also uhh I just found out that apparently they actually revealed the list of monsters that Hybrid Armor X had absorbed from Final Form Greeza. So in total there were 34 monsters that are part of Hybrid Armor X. And one card was apparently Greeza itself. So I guess that possibly means Daichi and X stole part of Greeza’s power along with the monsters it spit out. But other than that this also increases Final Form Greeza’s power boost as excluding Greeza and the Alien Fanton card there are a total of 32 other monsters and aliens that it had absorbed. Currently we only used the 22 spark dolls that were listed on the Ultra wiki. So this would actually boost Final Form Greeza‘s AP a bit.

Edit 2: And I just realized that Zaigorg actually never had a statement about being equal to Final Form Greeza. This interview statement we currently use to compare them only said they have unique and charming traits that match each other not that they match each other in power. In fact this statement specifically calls Greeza the strongest monster of Ultraman X not Zaigorg. And in the Z SCW interview, Taguchi said Greeza was the strongest monster he has ever created (This was when Taguchi was thinking about what monster to use for episode 15 of Ultraman Z so it doesn’t include Destrudos) which once again shows that Zaigorg doesn’t scale to Final Form Greeza. Man I know Taguchi said Greeza is his favorite monster but wow he’s just giving him statements on top of statements without a care in the world.

So Zaigorg actually doesn’t scale to Final Form Greeza whatsoever. Which means Zaigorg’s AP will be downgraded and I’m just gonna scale it to Zero Beyond and Dada Custom Legionoid instead. Final Form Greeza will be that one monster that nobody scales to whatsoever in the early New Generation Era not even Beta Spark Armor X as he have no proof he scales to a full power Final Form Greeza. And it seems like AP wise Final Form Greeza will be comparable to Symbol of Geed both being 5,940x Baseline 3-A.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Oh, that's good to hear.

On the card list, I thought that's just their way of showcasing the full rostet of the items they created. Going by the intro line highlighted there, it's actually talking about the OOParts that's scattered around the world. And yeah, I'm also aware that by all means they should have logically been a part of Hybrid Armor, but I'm personally feeling off about using that.

Yeah, the interview did say he's comparing the general physical appearance of the monsters. Also, I'd believe what you said, but the part before it says Greeza in the Z interview is kinda obscured and usually I'd go for the entire sentence in order to get the full picture. But it does seem to say that, so that's already covered.

Well that's kind of a bummer. But wasn't there a statement of Ultimate Final being stronger than Symbol of Geed at least?

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah it is good but he still hasn’t replied yet.

I think we actually see the cards that are listed here when X turns into Hybrid Armor. But yeah I could understand if you don’t want to use it. So should I revert the Final Form Greeza stuff from absorbing 32 Dark Thunder Energy amped monsters to 22 again?

Yeah I think there was a translation of the Z SCW interview somewhere on Tieba but it’ll take a while to find it. But the other interview did without a doubt call Greeza the strongest monster while Zaigorg was just called a silver screen monster and that they had comparable physical appearances.

Edit: Nevermind it was just a summary about the interview where Taguchi was deciding what monster he wanted to use in episode 15 before settling on the strongest monster he created Greeza to appear. But yeah basically Greeza has two statements of being the superior to Zaigorg so nothing really changes.

I’m actually just referring to Before Crisis when I say Final Form Greeza is the strongest 3-A and nobody scales to him. After Crisis they all scale above that due to Ultimate Final being stronger than Symbol of Geed and because X’s multipliers scale higher than 5,940x baseline 3-A anyway. But if we decide to not use the 32 monsters thing than Greeza’s AP will be downgraded back to 4,140x baseline 3-A instead. Which is still higher than most of the 3-As of that era but not by that much.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

It's the safest bet, though on the off-chance they actually decided all those cards were a part of their arsenal, then I don't see any problem with including them actually. I was just going by the in-story stuff since it's sort of illogical they'd also have the Mold Cyber Card especially when you consider him having been completely destroyed without any physical remnants that could be used as info for Card making. Then again, they kinda did just that with the Ultimate Armor.

Okay so Greeza is still officially stronger.

Ah, got it. In that case, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the inclusion of all the cards then.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright now that we’ve got the Before Crisis scaling with Greeza sorted out let’s go over some Reiwa Era scaling stuff.

We’ve already known this but it’s just repeated again in the SCW.


But basically according to these two pages King Joe Storage Custom is 5x stronger and 3x faster than Windom. And Windom is 2x faster than Sevenger.
So how are we going to use these statements in relation to Z? Like we know for a fact that Gamma Future Z scales above King Joe but like was it Alpha Edge Z that scaled to Windom or was it Beta Smash Z? I kinda forgot. But if it’s Alpha Edge that scales to Windom this means that Gamma Future would be 5x stronger than Alpha Edge based on scaling. And we know that Base Z is comparable to Sevenger so if it’s Alpha Edge that scales to Windom this also means that Alpha Edge is twice as fast as Base Z.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

So basically Alpha Edge might be considered only 2x faster than Base? That's a bit off, since that's the speed form. If there's anything on Ultroid Zero, he might actually scale to that in speed instead of Windom. At least for EoS Z. But yeah, if it's just speed, I think Alpha Edge should be scaled to the best mech STORAGE has since the form's consistently portrayed as such. But in overall stats except speed, I think Alpha Edge scaling to Windom might be accurate, and Beta Smash being above that. Though what do you think about Gamma Future? I personally feel like it's pretty accurate, but could be missing some points.

 

[Peter1129]

Ultroid Zero doesn’t seem to have any statements on how much stronger it is compared to Windom. All we know is that it is the strongest of the SAAs. So it just scales above King Joe Storage Custom.

So yeah if we only scale Alpha Edge Z to the highest speed of the SAAs it would be 6x faster than Base Z. Which honestly sounds like a bit too much.

And about Gamma Future yeah it being 5x Alpha Edge seems pretty okay to me as it’s been portrayed as being way stronger than the other two forms. It’s kind of supposed to be like Magnificent for Z I guess.

Also I’ve actually been meaning to talk about this but I kinda forgot.


The SCW confirmed that Galaxy Rising isn’t Geed’s strongest form. It’s actually just Geed’s Primitive form but enhanced. So do you think we should scale any of Z’s forms like say Beta Smash to Galaxy Rising due to the fight with the Belial Fusion Beasts?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Doesn't seem awfully stretchy to me. He has been consistently shown to blitz opponents, though I do get why since that's scaling him to KJSC, when he has been tagged by Five King. So what now?

Then 5x Base Z is fine for Gamma Future it is.

I nearly wrote an entire essay based on another misreading. But was Galaxy Rising really above Gilvallis? I'm pretty sure the first fight was more so a showcase of Galaxy Rising's skills and techniques with the second fight being where Gilvallis is finally at "full power" after absorbing those materials. I also can't find if the SCW stated that Galaxy Rising is stronger. But on scaling Beta Smash to Galaxy Rising, I don't particularly have a problem with it.

 

[Peter1129]

I guess Alpha Edge scaling to King Joe Storage Custom in speed is okay then. So that makes Alpha Edge 6x faster than Base. And Gamma Future 5x stronger than Alpha Edge.

Didn't they straight up say Gilvallis in the second fight is even weaker than it was when it fought Geed? But to answer your question no. The SCW only said Galaxy Rising defeated Gilvallis like we saw in Ultraman Z. They didn’t outright say who was stronger. But I guess we can just chalk it up to Ultras getting stronger due to the era difference. Like hey if a weakened Titas can effortlessly stomp Galactron MK2 who one shot Royal Mega Master Geed than it’s not that hard to believe that Galaxy Rising Geed can defeat Gilvallis solo.

But yeah I’m basically just wondering if we should or shouldn’t scale anything other than the Z Lance Arrow to Galaxy Rising. Cause like we clearly see Z keeping up with Galaxy Rising Geed even in Alpha Edge without the lance so the show seems to be treating them as comparable to an extent.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

That's weird, I thought he was only weakened because of the virus Yuka gave, and before that he was pretty much handling both Z and Geed pretty handily. And if anything, the whole thing about Tri-Squad being weakened throughout all of Taiga was even more of a stretch because they never really brought that up other than the fact they died at the prologue and even that didn't affect the story much, so I guess Galaxy Rising being comparable with a notable edge of Gilvallis is fine, and so is Alpha Edge and Beta Smash scaling to Galaxy Rising.

Edit: Odd question, but do you think it's possible to put certain attacks as Dura Neg based on the example of Z and Geed destroying Gilvallis' core despite pouring most of their attack on the body, despite the movie establishing that the core is just as durable and could typically survive the body's destruction? If so, some other examples might also be qualified for this.

 

[Peter1129]

Here Yuka said that Gilvallis is still incomplete. So after Gilvallis was defeated by Geed it was in an incomplete state as it was still trying to find material to repair itself. But yeah this was why a lot of people are confused about the scaling between Geed and Gilvallis. So a complete Gilvallis who was revived by the Devil Splinter was soloed by Galaxy Rising Geed. But an incomplete Gilvallis was able to match attacks from Galaxy Rising Geed and Beta Smash Z. So either the first fight was an outlier or Geed is purposely lowering his power to give Z a chance to grow. Which is possible as we see with Zero in UGF2 that he would lower his power to match that of Taiga's to show Z some stuff.

But yeah I guess Beta Smash scaling to Galaxy Rising should be okay I guess but Alpha Edge maybe not. Cause like Windom who is comparable to Alpha Edge Z couldn't really do anything against a weakened Gilvallis. So from the looks of it Alpha Edge scaling is probably out the window. And during the fight with Gilvallis, Alpha Edge Z had to use the Z Lance Arrow to keep up with it while Beta Smash Z didn't need to use it. So I personally think that only Beta Smash should scale to Galaxy Rising Geed. So anyways going over some stuff

Base Z will probably scale to the likes of Base Taiga since despite being inferior he should still be somewhat comparable to an extent. So he should still scale to the 2,250x baseline 3-A.

Alpha Edge Z is kind of in an unknown area. It is leagues stronger than Base Z and I honestly feel like it should scale to the other New Generation Ultras Base form which scales to Photon Earth Taiga but we don't really have proof of that. So for now it can only be massively stronger than Base Z rather than 4,500x baseline 3-A.

Beta Smash Z is the one that potentially scales to Galaxy Rising Geed so he would possibly scale to 10,800x baseline 3-A.

Gamma Future Z scales above King Joe which is 5x Windom who is comparable to Alpha Edge. But since we have no proof of Alpha Edge scaling to Photon Earth Taiga it would just be 5x Base Z so just 11,250x baseline 3-A. Which is kinda weird as it should be leagues stronger than Beta Smash. If Alpha Edge does have proof of scaling to Photon Earth Taiga though 5x 4,500 would've made Gamma Future 22,500x baseline 3-A.

Delta Rise Claw Z scales to the Reiwa Era Ultra Brothers so it would scale to 270,000x baseline 3-A just like the other New Generation Ultras in their strongest form.

But yeah overall Z's scaling is still kind of a mess as he doesn't really scale to anyone in particular. Let's just hope Ultraman Trigger and UGF3 will shed some light on where Z scales.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Wtf. Okay, that's kind of too much to think about, so let's just go with what you've already got then. On Alpha Edge, maybe we could use the whole schtick with him being called 1/3 of an Ultra Warrior and consider the form a 3x boost at least. I mean, it also layers three Ultras' powers on top of his own so I don't see how it would mess things up. Though, it does somewhat ignore the fact that even Original was actually holding off Genegarg pretty well, in space and on Earth, and it was a combination of the missiles and beam that really killed him and Haruki. And yeah, hopefully UGF 3 gives him better showings since he's likely starting with Original from now on.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah there’s just way too much to think about. Z really is stuck in a hard place as there’s no concise proof of him scaling to any of the previous ultras in a form that matters to the scaling. Though I guess going with your idea about him being 1/3 of an Ultra Warrior could work and probably is the best thing we could do for now. So if we use that 1/3 statement we will have

Original Z: 2,250x Baseline 3-A (Somewhat comparable to Base Taiga)

Alpha Edge Z: 6,750x Baseline 3-A (3x Original Z via the 1/3 Ultra Warrior statement)

Beta Smash Z: 10,800x Baseline 3-A (Likely comparable to Galaxy Rising Geed)

Gamma Future Z: 33,750x Baseline 3-A (5x Alpha Edge Z via scaling from King Joe Storage Custom)

Delta Rise Claw: 270,000x Baseline 3-A (Comparable to Reiwa Era Ultra Brothers and New Generation Ultra’s Strongest Form)

That does look a lot nicer and probably a lot more consistent. I just hope Trigger doesn't miraculously mess up the scaling or whatever.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Trigger might actually mess it up a little. At least, starting from Original since it seems like he's going toe-to-toe against a Barossan and from what we've seen, each one is either slightly stronger or just as strong as the first one, just with different skills. Or who knows, maybe there'll be a surprising consistency since we did still see Beta Smash and Power Type side by side.

 

[Peter1129]

If Beta Smash does end up being compared to Power Type while Original is compared to Multi Type. Than we probably can’t scale Beta Smash to Galaxy Rising Geed. Since Trigger’s Power Type is most likely gonna have the same boosts as Tiga’s Power Type which is several times (3x) Multi Type as he’s literally New Generation Tiga. And we will also have to throw away the Alpha Edge being 3x Original idea if this does happen and simply keep Alpha Edge as unquantifiably stronger than Original. If they does happen than

Original Z: 2,250x Baseline 3-A (Somewhat comparable to Base Taiga)

Alpha Edge Z: Stronger than 2,250x Baseline 3-A (Stronger than Original Z)

Beta Smash Z: 6,750x Baseline 3-A (3x Original Z via scaling from Power Type)

Z Lance Arrow: 10,800x Baseline 3-A (Comparable to Galaxy Rising Geed)

Gamma Future Z: Stronger than 11,250x Baseline 3-A (5x Alpha Edge Z via scaling from King Joe Storage Custom)

Delta Rise Claw: 270,000x Baseline 3-A (Comparable to Reiwa Era Ultra Brothers and New Generation Ultra’s Strongest Form)

And honestly everything looks much better if we just don’t scale Beta Smash to Galaxy Rising and make it so only the Z Lance Arrow scales. Cause Beta Smash being a several times (3x) boost just like all the other strength form makes much more sense than it scaling to Galaxy Rising which is around a roughly 5x boost in comparison to Original Z.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I personally don't see how Beta Smash scaling to Galaxy Rising at 5x Original is much of a problem, since Z is likely going to be treated as Trigger's superior anyway, but that's fine if at least the Z Lance Arrow does. And are we really just going to keep Alpha Edge an unknown but higher but not to a notable multiplier amount stronger than Original? We could always just use 2x since we at least know Alpha Edge is also superior to the combined efforts of Sevenger and Original.

You know, speaking of multipliers, we already know the strength but what about Z's speeds? So far I think we've only really decided on Alpha Edge, with a 6x boost from Original.

 

[Peter1129]

Thing is Original Z doesn‘t scale to Multi Trigger. He scales to Base Taiga. Trigger is the one that scales to Z in terms of Base form not the other way around. And believe me I would love to give Alpha Edge an multiplier but it really doesn’t have a stated one. And we don’t treat being stronger than two characters as a 2x multiplier unless we are specifically shown that they can do more damage than their combined attack or are specifically stated to be more powerful than the combined forces of the two.

And the thing is we don't even know for sure if Beta Smash scales to Galaxy Rising completely. Like we did see that Beta Smash was having trouble fighting a weakened Gilvallis while Galaxy arising Geed defeated the full power one solo. So Beta Smash being 6,750x baseline in comparison to Galaxy Rising’s 10,800x baseline still means they are somewhat comparable so there really isn’t anything wrong with that.

I think we could just treat the other forms as 2x Original Z in speed scaling from Windom being 2x faster than Sevenger who is comparable to Original Z.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I'm not saying that Z scales to Trigger, just that he's likely going to be considered or portrayed as superior in general which means the multiplier Beta Smash will get by scaling to Galaxy Rising doesn't seem much of a scale breaker. Although to be honest, I don't fully consider Beta Smash to be completely comparable to Galaxy Rising either (Actually wait, are we considering comparable to be 1:1 as the character that's scaled from? Because I just realized we seem to be doing that rather than actually treat it as comparable, but notably lower). But Alpha Edge not having a clear multiplier is fine, I was just suggesting an option.

Eh, 2x is probably fine. DRC and Gamma Future seem fairly faster than Alpha Edge, though I guess that's mostly in reactions and combat speed.

 

[Peter1129]

Ahh that is true about the Beta Smash potentially scaling to Power Type.

And not really. How I treat comparable is more like 1.1:1 they are strong enough to fight with a character but not exactly strong enough to be on their lvl.

Delta Rise Claw probably could scale above Alpha Edge via it being his strongest form. But Beta Smash should probably just be 2x Original. Cause Beta Smash is a strength form not speed form. And for Gamma Future I guess we could just scale it to King Joe so 6x Original as it did match Bullton who is comparable to King Joe in a magic like battle.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ah okay, like how it should be treated. I was kinda worried we were somehow getting off point about it.

Alright, DRC scaling above Alpha Edge's 2x boost makes sense, but so does it scaling above Gamma Future because don't these types of Final forms usually have statements of being superior to any preceding forms? At least in physical capabilities as we know capabilities and arsenal is why the other forms are still useful.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so going over the speed boost

Sevenger Speed: Original Z

Windom Speed (2x Sevenger): Beta Smash Z

King Joe Speed (3x Windom/6x Sevenger): Gamma Future Z

Ultroid Zero Speed (Faster than King Joe): Alpha Edge Z, Delta Rise Claw Z

Is that okay?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Yeah, this looks good.

 

[Peter1129]

Only problem is if it’s also shown that Alpha Edge is comparable in speed to Trigger’s Sky Type which in the future is revealed to also be a 3x boost just like Tiga’s Sky Type. Than we’re gonna need to reevaluate the speed scaling as well since it’s very likely that Original Z will be treated as overall comparable to Multi Type Trigger.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Guess we'll just have to see then.

 

[Peter1129]

Also speaking of multipliers. Am I the only one who thinks it’s stupid that Groob’s Vortex Buster is only supposed to be 2x stronger than Ruebe’s Vortex Buster while the True Vortex Buster used by Ruebe is 10x Ruebe’s normal Vortex Buster? Like both of them use the True Crystal which is stated to have tens of times more energy than the Extreme Crystal (The crystal used to transform into Ruebe if I’m not wrong) as a power source but somehow a technique used by Ruebe is stronger than Groob?

And if Groob is only 2x as strong as Ruebe he probably would’ve gotten absolutely stomped by Tregear who is stronger than Snake Darkness who is stronger than Leugocyte who can one shot Grigio Regina who one shot Ruebe. But no instead it’s stated that Groob is the one that’s slightly stronger than Tregear.

So I kinda want to assume that the 2x is actually referring to Groob being 2x the True Vortex Buster which is 10x Ruebe. As the True Crystal that allows them to transform into Groob is said to be tens of times (at least 20x) stronger than the Extreme Crystal used to transform into Ruebe. But that would mean Groob is a 20x boost on top of Ruebe which is already a greater than 25x boost on Rosso and Blu scaling from Royal Mega Master. Which would mean Groob is 500x stronger than Base Rosso and Blu. And that’s honestly a rather huge boost in power. I don’t think any of the other New Generation Ultras are shown to have boosts that big in their final form.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

That's a bit concerning. I'd say use the statement of the True Crystal being tens of times more powerful than Kiwami as Groob's basis as that should lessen the potential friction in scaling. Makes sense too, as it's literally Asahi becoming better integrated with them as opposed to being a final weapon as with True Vortech Buster.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah my thoughts as well. But that still comes with the problem of the Groob being 500x Rosso and Blu being kinda unbelievable when compared to all the other New Generation Ultras strongest form.

So I was thinking should we even scale Ruebe to Royal Mega Master Geed? Like currently we scale them due to Ruebe defeating Ultra-Dark Killer who defeated Royal Mega Master Geed. But the thing is we actually never saw him defeat Geed in a straight up fight. We just saw him drain Geed and X’s light energy to defeat them. So should he even scale?

And it’s mentioned that Ruebe is only more than 4x (At least 5x) Rosso and Blu rather than having a direct statement saying they are 25x stronger than Base like Royal Mega Master was stated to be for Primitive Geed. And we know that Base Rosso and Blu are comparable to Primitive Geed. So yeah I’m thinking that Ultra-Dark Killer doesn’t scale to RMM as he won via absorption and weakening hax. And we should probably just consider that one scene of him blocking a single slash from RMM Geed an outlier.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Alright, sorry, it was getting late and hard to keep up from the looks of when last post was made. So anyway. I thought that'd make Groob only around 250x if we use the statement of Makoto Crystal as being stronger than Kiwami, since Makoto was what True Vortex Buster was done with and was the 10x normal Vortex Buster? Still a high amount... but who knows.

I don't remember if I myself had said that UDK would be eligible as part of the scaling chain, but yeah, given his win through hax I don't see how he could have won in a clean fight against RMM. After all, the scene was Geed and X warning the group of UDK's ability so that may well have been the reason, and case in being outlier.

On another note, I'm surprised at the fact that they remembered to keep Zero consistent in being able to somewhat resist the energy drain from the Dark Killer Zone, especially since he already has faced something similar in the Beatstar Gaiden. This kinda gives him resistance to power drain I believe, as he was able to share his energy with Grigio, as well as fight Darkkiller Zero without being instantly defeated. And come to think of it, he had a lot that I haven't listed in his P&A list yet.

 

[Peter1129]

Well going by the tens of times statement would mean Groob is at least 20x Ruebe. And Ruebe is said to be more than 4x stronger than Rosso and Blu which means Ruebe is at least 5x stronger than they are individually. So if we ignore the Ultra-Dark Killer stuff Groob would be at least 100x Rosso and Blu. Which is still pretty big but much more consistent with the other New Generation Ultras strongest form.

Yeah Resistance to Energy Absorption makes sense. Oh right speaking of Killer the Beatstar I remember reading somewhere that Beatstar’s planet halves the power of organic beings. So whenever we make a profile for Beatstar we need to remember that the characters at the time had their powers halved.

Also uhh I just went back to rewatch the second Trigger special episode and uhh apparently they said Titas’ Planium Buster is said to rival Joneus’ Planium Beam. I guess we should ignore that statement right? Since Joneus is clearly shown to be way stronger than Titas.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

So what's the tally then? Tens of times doesn't seem too... uh, broken. And besides, the tier we're looking for is still "At least 3-A, likely Low 2-C" since Groob scales to Ultimate Final, who is that level. Right? So it seems like only the 3-A section of that will really matter. Unless we're going by them becoming stronger in every instalment then in which case, it could potentially cause the likes of Groob to get bumped to 100x baseline Low 2-C by the time of Taiga movie. which I don't quite mind since that'd mean Zero is roughly above that

Oh, so the entire planet had that effect? I thought they only mentioned the mist as the reason for them being powered down. So wait, does that mean by the time of Gaiden 2, a half-powered Zero who could somewhat match Beatstar is still notably stronger than Beryudora, who is the third most dangerous foe he fought?

I don't know, this time it seems to be fairly consistent as Titas has surprisingly, not used his Planium Buster as often as the others do with their own special abilities. I kinda count this one as a legit statement. I mean, I'm also aware that the Ultra-lets actually layer the predecessors' power over theirs, as with Taiga, but it may not have been the case for Titas.

 

[Peter1129]

I think Groob being tens of times Ruebe scaling from the True Crystal being tens of times the Extreme Crystal makes the most sense. Cause we know that True Vortex Buster which also uses the True Crystal is stated to be 10x stronger than Ruebe’s normal Vortex Buster. So Groob scaling above that and therefore to the Crystal’s multiplier makes much more sense.

And no currently none of the New Generation Ultras in their strongest form scales to Base Zero. But think about it now do the bracelets contain the full power of the Ultras or do they only contain a portion of it? Cause I just remembered that Hiroyuki giving the New Generations back the bracelet allowed them to transform again. So does that mean the bracelets are actually their full base form power? Cause if that’s the case than I’m actually not opposed to all the New Generation Ultras in their strongest form as well as the Reiwa Era Ultra Brothers scaling to Low 2-C. Cause the only factor preventing me from believing they scale to Zero is the fact that the Plasma Zero-let allowed Base Taiga to overpower an attack from Tregear. And I assumed at the time that the bracelets only had a portion of the Ultras power. But if they actually have the full power of the Ultra than I’m all in for them scaling to Low 2-C via Base Zero.

I’m actually not sure. I should probably go back and check it just to make sure if it was the entire planet or just the mist. Uhh you actually got the scaling wrong. Jean-Killer (aka Jean-Nine) was the one that was considered to be Zero’s third strongest enemy. Beryudora was the second strongest and Arch Belial was the strongest. This is also Pre-Ultraman Saga. Also speaking of which this reminds me should we treat the monsters at the monsters as at least 4-A, possibly 3-B scaling from the monsters of the Galaxy Crisis Era? This would increase Beryudora and Arch Belial’s AP as Beryudora was a fusion of Belial and like 200+ monsters of the graveyard at the time right? So if they scale to the 1/10 3-B that would mean Beryudora is 23x Baseline 3-A and Arch Belial scales above that. Currently we treat the monsters as an unknown boost so those two only scale unquantifiably above 3x baseline 3-A.

The problem here is a weaker Joneus from the Before Crisis Era fought equally with Zett. And in the Reiwa Era it’s shown that Zett can deflect and tank quite a few attacks from Full Power Tri-Strium Taiga who is a fusion of the Tri Squad. So yeah Titas being on par with an even stronger Joneus than the one that fought Zett that required his fusion to fight makes no sense.