The Strong Will Thrive! (Senator Armstrong vs. Machoke)

[DaReaperMan]

Okay, but here’s the thing. We’re here to debate. Do you think the opposing argument sucks? Sure, that’s fine. Then debate why. Saying that you think the opposing points sucks isn’t debating, it’s unnecessary banter that only goes to annoy people who surely think their arguments are good.

A debate is at it’s best when both parties can show the opposing argument respect, or at the very least, neutrality and fairness.

This goes for everyone here.

And I did debate why, if I work up the energy again, I'll debate why again. But my patience runs thin when I feel like I have to repeat myself or write essays just to debate properly, it's why I haven't been too active today honestly.

 

[Moritzva]

And I did debate why, if I work up the energy again, I'll debate why again. But my patience runs thin when I feel like I have to repeat myself or write essays just to debate properly, it's why I haven't been too active today honestly.

I understand. If this is the case, just take some time to relax, okay? Best do that rather than get heated. The debate will still be here tomorrow.

 

[Abstractions]

But my patience runs thin when I feel like I have to repeat myself or write essays

Just teasing, take some time to relax. Frankly I'm not participating in this thread anymore either.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay, but here’s the thing. We’re here to debate

Speak for yourself woman

 

[Arceus0x]

I feel like this is another case of omni man where the character scales absolutely massively above his actual tier and gets put against someone on that tier and it's thus a stomp

 

[Twellas]

I'm gonna (peacefully) throw my two cents here.

I haven't read the whole debate and I frankly have no intention to, but I'll try and clarify the things that seem to be the crux of the problem

I feel like there is a foundamental misunderstanding on Armstrong's scaling: Armstrong doesn't scale to the explosion and Raiden doesn't scale to Armstrong, let me explain: Armstrong's rating comes from bullying Raiden at the beginning of the fight, because, due to how little damage the latter took from the EXCELSUS explosion, we assume that Raiden at the beginning of the fight with Armstrong scales to that feat. I think we can all agree Armstrong is KINDA stronger than Raiden at that point, right (and at all points, since y'all change your mind on whether or not Raiden scales to Armstrong depending on what argument suits you best in the current thread)?
And Raiden just scales to the explosion plainly.

And when it comes to skill I... I just don't get y'all sometimes, making elaborate, bible comments analysing scenes etc, and ignoring the very simple concept of "he tagged him", while yes, some scenes imply that Raiden is more skilled (the throws, mainly; would you look at that, a guy who uses the most advanced throw-based martial art in the verse is good at throws, go figure), it doesn't by any means mean that he's a skilless goon who was only winning because of his strength, Boris notes that he can't get a read on his fighting skill, despite him being a combat analyst and being consistently able to get a read on the WODs. Does this mean he scales above them in skill? Not necessarily, but it does mean that he uses a fighting style that is entirely of his creation and can't be predicted by using pre-existing martial arts as comparisons; Raiden himself notes that he's not some brute with no skill and, cherry on top, even after Raiden got the power boost used Ripper Mode (this is the consensus y'all came to, right?) and became comparable to Armstrong in strength if not stronger, Boris notes that Raiden can't just whack away at him and needs to accurately read his moves, otherwise he will be overwhelmed, which in this case, cannot possibly be due to Armstrong outmuscle'ing him.
Is he as skilled and refined as Raiden? Nah, is he going to perform adaptation feats on Raiden's level? Most likely not, can he hold his own against Raiden while being just as strong as him and still be an active threat? Absolutely; hell, he actively holds his own against Sam who is arguably more skilled than Raiden. Given how ludicrous Raiden's and Sam's skill levels are, even if we say that Armstrong doesn't fully scale to them, he'd still be an absolute skill-menace

 

[Armorchompy]

It is mindblowing to me that Abs' condescending and sarcasm-filled wall of text was not considered to be any more toxic than the replies following it. IMO (Although speaking with Abs it apparently did not have actual ill intent behind it)

Regardless, all it does is point out how Armstrong's fighting style is unrealistic. Which fair point, maybe it is, but actually using that as the crux of one's argument when the person he's scaling off of is a cyborg ninja that swings his sword with his feet and breakdances in the middle of combat maybe makes me think that it's not the right mindset. I mean, you could probably make that argument about... like, 95% of anime characters and at least 70% of vg/comic ones. Fiction isn't realistic. Just because all Dark Souls bosses clearly telegraph all their attacks doesn't mean a MMA fighter could take any of them stats equalized.

Anyway, I think Twellas' post leaves very little up for debate, but here's the truth. Even if Armstrong was a mindless brute, that would still let him beat Machoke, because due to No Guard he could easily overpower him with brute force just like he did with Raiden. He is still stronger (you can nitpick your way out of this one but it does not ultimately matter), way more durable and way stronger in LS than Machoke.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yep, that's why its a stomp atm

 

[Moritzva]

It is mindblowing to me that Abs' condescending and sarcasm-filled wall of text was not considered to be any more toxic than the replies following it. IMO (Although speaking with Abs it apparently did not have actual ill intent behind it)

I said “everyone”. And, if you spoke to Abstractions and she had no ill intent, why bring it up? Please, let’s all focus on the debate.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I am baffled at how this fun debate I came up with ended up this way.

Just...wow...

 

[Arceus0x]

I am baffled at how this fun debate I came up with ended up this way.

Just...wow...

People always like to argue about big buff burly men and women the other 25% of the time

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So Armstrong Stat Stomps?