The Second VS Wiki Holy Grail War (Season 1)

[Hizack123]

[Why not play alone with me Llama? ]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Wow lag.]

[Essentially. Tengan doesn't provide a path to defeating an opponent who have reached the peak of swordmanship, and its kinda implied that it can also be applied to martial arts too IIRC, not just swordmanship. That's why Musashi is reluctant to fight the Yagyuu or something guy in the trial quest, because Musashi cannot see a way to win through her Empyrian Eyes and Musashi's swordmanship in itself is actually not that good to begin with. And the possibility of a future is something that's inherently vague, thus MEoDP and Azrael would normally be incapable of interact with it. The use of Tengan however, solidify 1 possibilty of a future in which case its nature become not so vague anymore and it became possible for both MEoDP and Azrael to interact with it just like what happened in Mirai Fukuin. And since Tengan limit the the future, anyone who can see the future via Clairvoyance will inevitably see that future and would be capable of preping themselves to face that future.]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[You're saying that my Instinct can see the future? Then what can Assassin use to counter Empyrean Eyes? And what can Rider use? In Caster's case, it's Clairvoyance, i get it.]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Its more of a "your skill at sword and his skill at martial arts render Tengan moot in the first place". And Rider and Lancer both have the mean to "kill" the future that Llama shape through Tengan with their ability]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[Wow, Fab keeps spamming his post projection! This is way too much! He's unstoppable! Someone please nerf him! Fast! xD]

[Anyway, in short, Saver's Empyrean Eyes are suck because he also suck at CQC? Seriously?]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[No, its doesn't suck because Llama sucks at CQC. It just become ineffective and/or useless when it is faced against someone that's really, really good at CQC. More precisely swordmanship and martial arts though]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[Hmm... I just realize, Saver also has Lancelot's Knight of Honor, right? The skill that make him become a master in any kind of weapon. Should that make him really good in CQC? If not, then if he use EE on someone who has KoH (example, Ruler), will Ruler become an expert in CQC and make his EE become less effective or he will still use his EE effectively?]

[Ah, now i just realize, No Second Strike require Qi, but Assassin didn't take Chinese Martial Art which is the skill that allow using Qi. Should that lessen Assassin's effective in using No Second Strike?]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Now look here. I dunno how many times do i need repeat this thing and explain this to you. But Tengan doesn't have anything to do with the skillholder's prowess at CQC, swordmanship, or martial arts. Its effectivity doesn't get affected by the skillholder's skill at all. Don't make me repeat myself, read what i wrote carefully]

[No Second Strike is usable only if you reach the pinnacle of Bajiquan anyway. So Assassin's capability of using No Second Strike is already a go pass.]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[But i'm asking different questions... you're answering different, too. I just ask if a KoH's user can become a master in CQC. And can Ruler also reduce EE's effect if targeted by Saver. Because he has KoH which make him master in any kind of weapons... If i'm making you angry somehow, i'm sorry, ok. But please, at least read my question carefully if you can...]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Define CQC in thic context. Because from what has been given in canon, Tengan can't work against someone who has reached the pinnacle of swordmanship and implied martial arts is also included. Anything other than that is irrelevant unless more info is given.]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[Definitely why i'm asking this right now. Anyway, my bad, up there i've mistaken Knight of Honor for Eternal Arms Mastership. Let's talk about this in an canonically way. Scenario: Musashi vs Lancelot. That EAM skill make Lancelot's fighting skill unrivaled under all kind of condition. So! If Lancelot use a sword (which he already reached the pinnacle of swordmanship), Musashi can't use Tengan on him. But! If Lancelot throw his sword and use Martial Art or another kind of weapons like spear or axe, can he still prevent Musashi's Tengan or not? I've already made it as straight as possible. Except in case Tengan can't even use on a swordmaster who have reached the pinnacle of swordmanship even in the situation that swordmaster didn't have a sword, it's another case then.]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Using another weapon when one has reached the pinnacle of swordmanship beat the point of "reaching the pinnacle of sword" to begin with, so using Lancelot is a bad example]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[No, i intentionally use Lancelot because his skills allow him to master in all kind of fighting, not only sword. Which is why i'm asking about this. Really really curious about this if you ask me.]

 

[Artoria_King_of_Knights]

[Gonna sleep now. Anyway, thank you for your lessons, Mr.Fabtastic.]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[No. His skills allow him to use something that he touches as a weapon as if that weapon was his and to ensure that his fighting capability do not detoriate in case something bad happen to his head. He does not possess any skill that let him master all kind of fighting.]

 

[Edwellken]

[So we're basically just waiting for Llama ex machina at this point right?]

 

[Blahblah9755]

[So we're basically just waiting for Llama ex machina at this point right?]

[Any ex should be EX when it comes to Llama.

Also, based on my understanding of her NPs, I think Saver will survive this regardless of Llama. If she was gonna have her heart stopped she would block it with her LE, if she was gonna get the incredible strain on the nervous system screwing up her nervous system, circulatory system, and magic circuits without immediately killing her she could survive it with Pain Breaker, and I think she would probably know which it is and what to do in advance thanks to revelation.]

 

[LlamaGod1411]

[Wait we're waiting for me to come in? The fighting hasn't even started yet]

[A blade could be an inch away from Saver but I still can intervene using TTBB]

[And thanks Blah, Saver EX Machina seems nice]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[@Blah: Yes, that's right. I'm gonna survive your attack is for sure. The thing is, i want to see if i can survive it normally or not. Using LE is way too risky due to its limitation (Any damage LE receive will reflect on the flag. If the flag get destroyed, i can't use LE anymore until the flag recovered). And i want to save my LE in case an excaliblast come straight to my face.]

[Btw, i just sleep for a little time, and Ruler's name turn red?]

 

[LlamaGod1411]

[Monarch's a discussion mod now]

 

[Blahblah9755]

[I think we're more waiting for Owari. And isn't that only if you already have TTBB active? You still need to react to the event in real time to activate it, and currently you only have B agility compared to my A+(A++ when accounting for my item). You could probably react when I start moving, but when I'm an inch away seems like a stretch.]

 

[LlamaGod1411]

[TTBB active is what I meant, yes. Since everyone would pretty much be frozen in time from my POV.

And thanks, was wondering if the fighting had started already from both parties]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[The point is why i create the debate above. To see if i can really survive your attack even without using LE. If i can, gonna tank and use Pain Breaker. If i can't, gonna use LE. It's just simple like that, but i want to see what outcome is gonna happen to write.]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[Yes! Finally! I've done my research well! Gonna pick Mikotto as NP next time to punish Monarch for messing around with me!]

 

[Blahblah9755]

[Ah, sorry. I didn't see that you had responded when I posted that. You would need to use LE if NSS was going to immediately stop your heart, but that's only one of two options and the other option you should be able to survive with Pain Breaker, since it only screws with your body's nervous and circulatory systems and severs your connection to your master. The page for NSS doesn't say how to tell which one will happen, so maybe just flip a coin? Heads you just use Pain Breaker, tails you need LE.

Also, would LE take too much damage from this anyways? At most it's a couple C rank strike and a few dozen E to D rank strikes against an A rank flag, would the chip damage be that severe?]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[TTBB active is what I meant, yes. Since everyone would pretty much be frozen in time from my POV.

[More than that. TTBB lets the user go outside time and space, and reenter at any point. While I've banned paradox causing by going really far back, if you arrive too late, something as simple as going a few seconds back in time to block the attack would be fine.]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[Yes! Finally! I've done my research well! Gonna pick Mikotto as NP next time to punish Monarch for messing around with me!]

[Oh my god. Please no]

 

[Hizack123]

[@owari]

No No No No No !

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[@Hizack, still waiting for your response to me chasing after you and telling you that you are heading straight for Lancer with an unconscious old man in your arms so you won't be able to fight properly as you'll need to be defending him]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[Need a full LE flag to tank an anti fortress on par with excalibur. So your little chip damage will be fatal if i look down on them. Imagine my flag has 1000Hp, excaliblast 1000 dmg and your combo 200 dmg. Get it?]

 

[Hizack123]

[@Hizack, still waiting for your response to me chasing after you and telling you that you are heading straight for Lancer with an unconscious old man in your arms so you won't be able to fight properly as you'll need to be defending him]

[You have to wait, i need to go to church]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[Alright. But I need to finish up with Berserker and get to the ingame washington heights Church in time to witness old Saver saving new Saver and messing up Assassin. So no one else get too far ahead of yourselves]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[Oh my god. Please no]

[Why not? Pretty strong anyway, super effective against male.

And llama will come before or after i use LE?]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[You're going to survive the initial attack, whether by Pain Breaker or By LE. After that, idk, you'll have bit of a fight. If you can beat assassin on your own, llama doesn't need to show up, if not, he can show up. The main thing is you both survive, and assassin is injured and forced to retreat using the Mist and Information Erasure to cover her tracks]

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

[Does Llama have Determination of Steel though ?]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[Doesn't have it, doesn't need it, for the same reason Edwellkin can use Ars Paulina without all of Solomon's stuff]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[As Blah said, he'll retreat if i use any of my NPs. So even if i use one, Assassin will instantly retreat. And if Assassin retreat, Llama won't come due to me not being in danger. So that's why i'm asking Llama will come before or after i use my NP.]

[Btw, Llama was supposed to protect me and Saber, right? If me and Saber fight each other, WHO will Llama protect? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

[If you survive, use your NP and force Assassin to retreat, llama won't need to come out at all. Though do try to slice Assassin's leg or stomach or something before they retreat]

 

[Blahblah9755]

[As Blah said, he'll retreat if i use any of my NPs. So even if i use one, Assassin will instantly retreat. And if Assassin retreat, Llama won't come due to me not being in danger. So that's why i'm asking Llama will come before or after i use my NP.]

[Btw, Llama was supposed to protect me and Saber, right? If me and Saber fight each other, WHO will Llama protect? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

[Actually thinking about it, if you were in a position where you could use Pain Breaker, you probably wouldn't be able to activate it immediately since I'd still screw with your nervous system and magic circuits/connection to your master. So if you survive through Pain Breaker I wouldn't retreat straight away.

We could do this so that you take the hit and can't use Pain Breaker till you get your bearings back, at which point Llama jumps in to stop my second attack and I retreat, before he can chase after me he realizes he has no idea who I was, how I attacked, or what I looked like and tries to stop any ensuing chaos.

Also, I think he'd probably just get one of you as far away from the other as possible if you were fighting with intent to kill.]

 

[OwariNepgear]

[Because the whole result of Assassin's attack is unknown, even Blah doesn't know if his attack will instantly kill me or not, he told me to toss a coin to decide, so i use random.org between 1 and 2 with 1 is LE and 2 is PB. With that result, Revelation will guide me to use LE to block Assassin's NP combo and Assassin will retreat just like he planned.]
[@Monarch: But, the thing is, while using LE i can't move so there's no way for me to attack Assassin. If there's anyone can, must be Llama or Artoria. Caster was inside the church so i doubt he can attack Assassin. And, with Sphere Boundary, he's basically invisible. Even if Llama come with TTBB, he has no way to land a hit on Assassin.]