The removal of Toeiverse Lifting Strength (Dragon Ball)

[StrymULTRA]

Hello. This will be a short CRT which will be about the Lifting Strength of the Toeiverse.

Right now basically everyone is Class P over two calculations:

1. Piccolo lifting a Pyramid (which is Class G)
2. Gohan resisting the Death Zone (aka the Class P feat in question)

I do not even need to tell how inconsistent this is...

• Goku struggles with a mere x10 gravity and gets a big boost once he manages to get used to it.
• Namek Goku struggling to block a giant boulder.
• A post-Namek Yamcha almost dies from x300 gravity.
• Vegeta also considers said x300/400 a big effort.
• The infamous 40 tons anti-feat.
• GT Goku unable to move a falling skyscraper without SSJ4, and even in said form he struggles in lifting chunks of rock. Plus Pan is having problems in lifting multiple humans at once.
• An elephant easuly crushes SSJ Goku's hand.

It's pretty obvious that the characters' Lifting Strenght is objectively far lower than a single feat performed at the beginning of the series, given the amount of anti-feats.

I am not suggesting anything yet, but Class P definitely does not make sense. And I cannot find anything about the Pyramid, but it'd be only via TK unless proven otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

OP seems to make sense to me. The Class P feat is highly inconsistent with the rest of the verse.

 

[StrymULTRA]

OP seems to make sense to me. The Class P feat is highly inconsistent with the rest of the verse.

Any suggestion to what to do? I'd not be opposed to make a calc on the Skyscraper for anyone scaling from Shadow Dragons arc SSJ4 Goku.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Idk if gravity arguments are necessarily good. From what I've seen gravity amplifying abilities tend to create inconsistencies every time they're used.

To give 2 examples that I'm familiar with, in OPM Gyoro Gyoro has blatant class P LS and yet used and expects 300x gravity to crush opponents relative to her.
In GoH characters straight up throw planets at MFTL speeds in the daily and yet use and get affected by 100-10k times gravity.
Hell one of the feats listed as anti feats shows base Goku casually swinging 8 tons around which is still about 10x more than than what 10x gravity should put him under making the gravity anti feats inconsistent with in-universe values.

Now I'm not saying this should be some golden rule, but I think gravity amplifying feats have in experience always been super inconsistent and shouldn't really be taken over something as blatant as lifting a pyramid.

Also the elephant thing seems to be for comedic purposes so I idrk if using it as an anti feat is actually valid.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now I'm not saying this should be some golden rule, but I think gravity amplifying feats have in experience always been super inconsistent and shouldn't really be taken over something as blatant as lifting a pyramid.

What is even the link for that? I do not find anything for it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

What is even the link for that? I do not find anything for it.

What link ?

 

[StrymULTRA]

NVM FOUND IT



Though what's the evidence for it scaling to physicals?

 

[Emerald]

An elephant easily crushes SSJ Goku's hand.

Are we going to ignore how stupid this one is? Like even ignoring the LS part, we would be saying Goku is being harmed by 9-C/9-B stuff

 

[Emerald]

NVM FOUND IT



Though what's the evidence for it scaling to physicals?

Chiaotzu > Piccolo, and he couldn't stop Nappa even with TK

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are we going to ignore how stupid this one is? Like even ignoring the LS part, we would be saying Goku is being harmed by 9-C/9-B stuff

Nah, it's pure LS here. Tier 8s being crushed from big rocks is not uncommon.

 

[Damage3245]

Are we going to ignore how stupid this one is? Like even ignoring the LS part, we would be saying Goku is being harmed by 9-C/9-B stuff

Nah, the real stupid part of that is that FTL Goku wouldn't be able to just grab the Dragon Ball before the elephant could move a milimeter.

 

[Emerald]

Nah, it's pure LS here. Tier 8s being crushed from big rocks is not uncommon.

Bro an elephant only weights like 5 to 6 tons. Kid Goku could lift and toss a car (which weight around 1 ton), and Cell Saga is way above this (we have multipliers and stuff for that).
Its just stupid to use this scene to nerf goku

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Nah, the real stupid part of that is that FTL Goku wouldn't be able to just grab the Dragon Ball before the elephant could move a milimeter.

Almost like it's a comedic scene and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

NVM FOUND IT



Though what's the evidence for it scaling to physicals?

It doesn't even scale to physical lifting strength, and even more disturbing is how they were able to use it to scale everyone else...

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

'Even more disturbing' lmao I can't

 

[StrymULTRA]

'Even more disturbing' lmao I can't

What about you refute instead of memeing, smart guy

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

What about you refute instead of memeing, smart guy

The Elephant stepping on Goku? Yeah, sure..... it's a gag.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Most anti-feats for LS are gags; though, the highest LS in the series coming from relatively early does raise some eyebrows. Likewise, even Dragon Ball saga had some consistent Class K stuff. Not to mention, various giant characters are like extremely consistently Class M with various characters upscaling via having higher PLs. I definately still think Class G is harmless given the other common circumstances though can understand why some would consider Class P inconsistent. But yeah, I agree with the opposition mostly.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I swear to everything if yall give that elephant feat any steam

Bruh the Elephant feat is pure gag materiel. Unless we want to use the Krillin throwing a rock as an anti feat now.

The “struggling to block boulder feat” shows bro literally stopping a damn near island from crushing him against a mountain.

The 40 tons fiasco has been explained numerous times

Super Exciting Guide explains the following

Bukujutsu (舞空術, Flight) entry of the SEG

舞空術を使いながら、両手両足に２トンのオモリをつけてトレーニング！
Training with 2-ton weights attached to his arms and feet while sky dancing!
１００倍の重力以上に体に負荷がかかるが、その分効果は絶大だ！
The stress on his body exceeds 100 Gs, but the results are astonishing!
空中でオモリをささえるには気の力も必要だ
Supporting the weights while in the air also requires the use of chi
オモリを合計４０トンに増量！！
Weights increased to a total of 40 tons!
死んだって日々鍛錬！
Even death won't stop him from training every day!

Herms: "It's worth pointing out that the Daizenshuu ( he’s referring to the Super Exciting Guide) basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it almost infinitely harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit.Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.''

the interview in question
According to Toriyama in the S.E.G.

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"]. There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Everything is just inconsistency of just story elements.

Example
Goku being introduced to 10x was just to show he was not used to it since he hadn’t been on Vegeta in years less you dare make the argument that all saiyan infants are stronger than fricking saiyan saga Goku.

Same thing for Yamcha

The GT feat is stupid as hell so I’ll give maybe that one credence but he straight up didn’t just lift rocks in SSJ4 it was half the fricking city.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

the elephant scene is just a joke, it has the same weight as Saitama being hurt by a cat

 

[GarrixianXD]

Agree with the opposition.

 

[Emerald]

No clue why we are taking the 40 tons at face value when even in og Dragon Ball we have characters that can crush boulders, jump past the clouds, toss pillars at Mach speeds, crush telephone booths, or even toss people so hard it destroys buildings. Heck even the rock pushing feat is like very close to 40 tons

 

[Hasty12345]

No clue why we are taking the 40 tons at face value when even in og Dragon Ball we have characters that can crush boulders, jump past the clouds, toss pillars at Mach speeds, crush telephone booths, or even toss people so hard it destroys buildings. Heck even the rock pushing feat is like very close to 40 tons

Sometimes people forget low ends can be outliers as well

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Yeah, uh, I agree with the opposition. Outliers can refer to both low-end and high-ends, and this is a textbook example of a low-end outlier.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Using the elephant scene as an anti-feat is pretty goofy but some of the other points are worth looking into (Well except the 40 ton scene, that already has an explatation of it being more difficult to lift for him while flying).

Goku struggling and ultimately failing to stop that chunk of land from hitting that small mountain is worth looking into, if the force Frieza's telekinesis used to toss it ends up being lower than Class P than that's kinda damning, base GT Goku struggling to push and hold up a building and needing to transforming to push it back also raises some eyebrows. Those don't look good when compared to what is so far a single Class P feat done Pre-Raditz arrival.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I definately still think Class G is harmless given the other common circumstances though can understand why some would consider Class P inconsistent. But yeah, I agree with the opposition mostly.

Tbh I'd need a calc for the Frieza and the GT stuff. Just so we make sure

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, I’m with the opposition on this one.

(Bro really took the Elephant feat from Twitter )

 

[Kroneii1]

An elephant easuly crushes SSJ Goku's hand.

Goku as ssj also got hurt by a rock so yeah I agree.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl I brought the elephant thing as a meme mostly and it did gain enough attention.

Anyway, the GT stuff and the Mountain thing are the main stuff to cover here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I do believe the Frieza feat was calced a bit above Piccolo's Pyramid lift.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do believe the Frieza feat was calced a bit above Piccolo's Pyramid lift.

The thing is about calcing Goku stopping it, as we got ways to calculate even that.

Plus what's the evidence for TK scaling to physicals? No one bothered to answer me so far.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Plus what's the evidence for TK scaling to physicals? No one bothered to answer me so far.

Nappa did overpower Chiaotzu's TK Ig

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nappa did overpower Chiaotzu's TK Ig

No what I mean is scaling to the user's own physicals lol.

 

[Johner2133451]

Honestly almost disagree with everything here but when you brought up the elephant feat, instantly got convinced so I agree

 

[Chariot190]

Dead Zone is sus, but Toei has a slew of dumb as shit LS feats. Cell stopping the meteor with one hand, Goku in space moving a planetoid and throwing a chunk of rock between the planetoids highkey the best LS feat, kinda outliery tho, and more for Toei exclusive.
There's also stuff like Kid Goku lifting boulders straight up and pushing large ones or Goku throwing Giant Piccolo, or if we want to include jumping, Goku and Nam leaping kms up.
I'm going to ignore throwing feats, because if we do we'd have hundreds of Class M to Class G feats, but throwing is a bit less evident, might have been accidental.

Movies have stuff like Goku lifting a chunk of ice in 13, Broly yeeting the space pod into a comet (escape velocity+thousands of km of a few hundred kg object, also crushes it which with normal metal would be like Class M), etc.

Dead Zone bad but calcing the obvious blatant LS feats like Cell, or Goku lifting a chunk of a city in SSJ4 is how I'd go about this. Probably Class G or T.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The biggest problem I have is how inconsistent lifting strength feats are in the series, this goes both ways.

This combined with the fact that we are supposed to scale literally everyone from the same feat is just...

 

[Chariot190]

This combined with the fact that we are supposed to scale literally everyone from the same feat is just...

Yeah we should like, actually calc shit, maybe get a good 10~ feats as a foundation, especially because multipliers and LS is a huge no-go.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

What kinda idiot would use the elephant seriously? And who's a bigger idiot to agree with that? Anyway Don't matter, we have cell stopping meteors, frieza launching mountains, goku pushing against the gravity of a sun and launching his spaceship at mflt+, goku literally pushing away a mountain against kid buu.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Dead Zone is sus, but Toei has a slew of dumb as shit LS feats. Cell stopping the meteor with one hand, Goku in space moving a planetoid and throwing a chunk of rock between the planetoids highkey the best LS feat, kinda outliery tho, and more for Toei exclusive.
There's also stuff like Kid Goku lifting boulders straight up and pushing large ones or Goku throwing Giant Piccolo, or if we want to include jumping, Goku and Nam leaping kms up.
I'm going to ignore throwing feats, because if we do we'd have hundreds of Class M to Class G feats, but throwing is a bit less evident, might have been accidental.

Movies have stuff like Goku lifting a chunk of ice in 13, Broly yeeting the space pod into a comet (escape velocity+thousands of km of a few hundred kg object, also crushes it which with normal metal would be like Class M), etc.

Dead Zone bad but calcing the obvious blatant LS feats like Cell, or Goku lifting a chunk of a city in SSJ4 is how I'd go about this. Probably Class G or T.

Do you have the scans of goku throwing planetoids and throwing chunk of rocks across them? I'm interested in seeing it.

 

[Chariot190]

Do you have the scans of goku throwing planetoids and throwing chunk of rocks across them? I'm interested in seeing it.