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The Problems With Tier 0 (Staff Only)

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We still have to solve the problem with our tier 0 category, that is linked to in the wiki navigation bar, as it is a major attraction for our casual visitors.

1542813549479
 
High 1-A can just be 0. There's literally no reason it can't be. As I've said already, what matters is the definition of the tier, not the number.
 
Sera EX said:
I'm very limited on time, but I strongly disagree. Not every High 1-A/0 needs to be some ultra vague Ein Sof/Parabrahman allegory. They just need to transcend a 1-A hierarchy, like the Writer does.
Let me expand on this point. Not every High 1-A/0 needs to be like the Creator or the Majestic Presence to work. They can be unique, different, and even display some sort of personality.

The One Above All, The Writer, Azathoth and the Law of Identity are all examples of supreme beings which don't follow the Ein Sof blah blah allegory.
 
Azathoth technically does. He's vague and unknowable in his truest sense of "being"/non-being, whatever you want to call it. But yeah I agree on TOAA, LOI, and the Writer.
 
Also I definitely disagree that High 1-A/0 has to conform to the "many forms of a single entity" notion. It could be two equally opposing beings, or a trinity of sorts. As long as it is clear that the being or beings are some form of supreme entity.

Hell, God is said to have 700 names all of which can be seen as different aspects in some beliefs. Is God suddenly not omnipotent because he has 700 forms?
 
Tier 0 has been treated as something that must be a semblance to Ein Sof/Brahman or any equivocal theological concept, be it religous or not. The omnipotence page clearly even stated Tier 0 was "boundlessness".
 
Sera EX said:
High 1-A can just be 0. There's literally no reason it can't be. As I've said already, what matters is the definition of the tier, not the number.
Okay. That would definitely simplify things a lot.
 
Tier 0: High Outerverse level

Characters that far exceed the requirements for Tier 1-A. Such characters will usually stand hierarchically above everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, etcetera.

Take note that being infinitely superior to a regular 1-A character does not automatically make another character qualify for a Tier 0 rating. The ones that do qualify should be so much higher than baseline 1-A characters that it can not be estimated or comprehended from their perspectives. That is, to even be considered for Tier 0, a character must at the very least transcend baseline 1-A characters in the same manner that they exceed ones who are bound by dimensions.

It is also important to note that such characters are not omnipotent, as such a concept isn't well suited for our tiering system (See the Omnipotence page for further explanations). High outerversal characters, although immeasurably powerful, can display minor weaknesses and limitations, and be rivaled or even surpassed by other beings within their respective verses.

I suppose that we just have to wait for input from DarkLK and Azathoth regarding if and how we should improve the current draft then.
 
@Azathoth/DarkLK I'd think that something like that belongs better within a "Almighty Beings" category or something like that, rather than being lumped in with AP despite having no relation

To be entirely fair, we already have a "Supreme Beings" category. Having an "Almighty Beings" category for something completely different will totally confuse users.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
Well, I personally suggested a number of possible concepts of God for high 1-A. Monotheistic and pantheistic, conscious and unconscious. I don't quite understand what the problem is with this.
 
@DarkLK

There is no problem. I just need help with incorporating your suggestions into the text, as it is not my area of knowledge.
 
@Azathoth & Sera

Would you be willing to help out with improving on my draft text based on DarkLK's suggestions?
 
@Chocolate

Because truly omnipotent characters do not exist. You can always go up in the "it's stronger" ladder, there is no upper limit

Take a "omnipotent" introduced in issue #45 of a comic.

Issue #62 introduces a character transcending them infinitely.

Issue #74 introduces another character transcending both.

You can continue forever.
 
Ha! Anyways, yeah, with all respect to other VS and indexing wikis, we will not take their definitions to the same meaning and implications as they do. We use far different interpretations than they allow.
 
Here are DarkLK's explanations:

DarkLK said:
High 1-A is an attempt to realize the philosophical and theological understanding of God in the context of a specific fiction. Monotheistic ideas about an absolutely transcendental being or pantheism with some ultimate archetype of everything and beyond. There can not be more than a few high 1-A for each verse. Artist and canvas or conscious and unconscious forms of God. Such options allow you to get more than one high 1-A.

Something like that.

Roughly speaking this should be a religious God from the point of view of any other being (beyond dimensional creatures including).
DarkLK said:
Well, I personally suggested a number of possible concepts of God for high 1-A. Monotheistic and pantheistic, conscious and unconscious. I don't quite understand what the problem is with this.
 
Also, KingPin0422 has som concerns about the current draft.

He wants to add the following segment:

"More often than not, these characters are represented within fiction as either an artist/writer and their canvas, a God-like entity with both a transcendent and an immanent form, or simply a personal creator deity."

He also wants to take out the mention of tier 0 being above transduality, since he does not think that "this character is neither dual nor nondual" makes any sense.

In addition, he wants to re-add the "and their analogues at any level" part, due to that "The point of a tier 0 character is that their in-verse limitations are insignificant at best, save for any that they impose upon themselves. Ein Sof-level stuff is obviously not expected, but there's no reason for such a character to be capable of death if they don't want to die."

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2386788
 
Tier 0: High Outerverse level

Characters that far exceed the requirements for Tier 1-A. Such characters will usually stand hierarchically above everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism, the concepts of life and death, etcetera.

Take note that being infinitely superior to a regular 1-A character does not automatically make another character qualify for a Tier 0 rating. The ones that do qualify should be so much higher than baseline 1-A characters that it can not be estimated or comprehended from their perspectives. That is, to even be considered for Tier 0, a character must at the very least transcend baseline 1-A characters in the same manner that they exceed ones who are bound by dimensions.

It is also important to note that such characters are not omnipotent, as such a concept isn't well suited for our tiering system (See the Omnipotence page for further explanations). High outerversal characters, although immeasurably powerful, can display minor weaknesses and limitations, and be rivaled or even surpassed by other beings within their respective verses.

Okay. I updated the draft.
 
Well, it still needs to be updated with DarkLK's explanation, and I don't understand it well enough to properly do so.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it still needs to be updated with DarkLK's explanation, and I don't understand it well enough to properly do so.
Is somebody knowledgeable, such as Sera or Azathoth, willing to help out here? If not, we will likely have to use the current draft in lack of better options.
 
Yes. I would just prefer if we did this in a proper manner.
 
I am waiting for Azathoth, Sera, or somebody else who properly understands DarkLK's suggestions for improvements, to apply them to my draft text. If that isn't possible, we will have to go with what we currently have in lack of better options, and then update the tier High 1-A and 0 pages.
 
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