The Problem with the Pocket Dimension Star Feats

[SomebodyData]

I don't mind tightening the standards as well.

Good thing we never used the tier 4 PMMM feats huh?

 

[Mr._Redic]

Agreeing with Saikou as well.

As for the problem of what pocket dimension creation counts as for tiering and whatnot, I believe we should ignore the space of the dimension as just unquantifiable space manipulation (Vacuum Energy would either seriously downplay or overwank it based on its various energy estimates). For the objects we see in there such as planets/stars and I think we generally should use matter creation based on mass-energy conversion, and use this to determine the tier. Of course we can't use it as a rigid standard, we'd have to go over it on case-by-case basis based on context of the character/series.

Also agree with Dragonmaster, a Dimension Creation Feats page would be good. Or just a Creation feats page in general with Dimension Creation as a subsection, it'd be nice to have standards for various creation feats like we do with destruction feats.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Jordan I mean, why are you assuming this only applies to people who would otherwise have feats on a far lower scale.

Tier jumps should be put under scrutiny but I don't see how applying stricter statandards to a specific type of feat helps with that.

 

[AguilaR101]

I don't mind tightening the standards as well. Good thing we never used the tier 4 PMMM feats huh?

Legit, what is the reason those specific dimension creation feats wouldn't be tier 5/4? Aren't the witches explicitly stated to create them and aren't we shown celestial bodies inside of them/or at least things we can infer to be celestial bodies?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I'm not, I'm just saying that's one potential reason for why we would want stricter standards on feats like this. I feel like a pocket dimension's size shouldn't be assumed based on the background, considering that it could just be a visual effect used to denote that they are in a different space, rather than immediately proving that the person in question has cosmic levels of power.

And even then, I don't think that it should necessarily justify AP unless it's specifically shown that the character is indeed using attacks on that scale, and another character would need to hit them that hard to defeat them.

But, that is also just my personal viewpoint on this, so if it ends up just not being how we do things on this site, I'm fine with that.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Aguila I actually debunked them a while ago, hence why we don't make tier 4 outlier jokes anymore (though I think most people missed it). If you want, you could leave a message on my wall to further discuss that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Jordan

Assuming that things meant to be stars are just visuals is, like I said, an unjustified assumption to make (and doesn't obey Occam's razor but sssh). It also... doesn't really make sense, since the author adding physical things like stars in a place just for the audience makes little sense and the character making fake stars is even less justifiable.

And unless the creation of the pocket dimensions is done through specific powers not used in combat, it would apply to normal AP. So it indeed is not how we do things here.

 

[Andytrenom]

>It shouldn't justify AP unless it is specifically shown here is using attacks on that scale

I mean you can say about pretty much any creation feat. I technically agree with about the second point since pocket dimension creation feats aren't supposed to scale to durability without proof.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ever's take on it:

"The only problem is when characters simply say, raise their hand, a bright light shows up and then he and the other character are in another realm... Yeah, just looking at that and assuming Dimension Creation is pretty bad."

I feel like it's good if:

• 1. We have clear proof they created it.
• 2. It's shown or stated that they maintain it.
• 3. It collapses when they die.

Having any of those should be good, preferably two out of three."

 

[Mr._Redic]

Feel like every Final Fantasy/JRPG boss does the last one.

 

[TriforcePower1]

The last one would be a feat on its own regardless.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

On that note, like I said, imo it should depend on context. Because assuming a random pocket dimension was just lying around all this time and was only used for this one fight doesn't really make sense in most verses.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I feel like if a dimension collapses when its ruler dies, that's more equatable to a weakness of the dimension itself.

Like, if a character who's usually shown as 9-A fights someone who created a solar-system-sized pocket dimension, and it collapses upon their defeat, then that doesn't make the prior character 4-B, it just means that the dimension has a 9-A cornerstone that can be broken to destroy it, if that makes sense.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Can we not make our standards even more needlessly strict?

I understand the need for statements regarding the creation of a pocket dimension (in fact, I'm pretty sure we already do this), but assuming that something clearly meant to be star to just be "a dot in the sky" and ignoring it is pushing it.

Unless we have some reasons to think the stars would be illusory, I don't think that assuming stars in those to be fake to be a good default assumption.

Tell that to DMC

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If the character can maintain the existence of such a world by their own powers, it's a feat.

It's different if it's a case like 682 where the character doesn't use their own power to do so and instead just somehow keep the realm together via other means. But in most case, we deal with characters who have implied control over such realm in the first place.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Jordan I don't feel it's impossible but I don't know how well that works as a default assumption.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yeah, and it probably is better to think about it on a case by case basis.

At this point I'm more just trying to figure things out for the verse I originally started to talk about regarding this issue

 

[Andytrenom]

Dragon's page is also a good idea to me.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Agree with a page. This was long overdue.

 

[AguilaR101]

Also, why are dimension creation feats being rated as if they were explosions? The baseline for 4-A is literally how much energy in joules an omnidirectional explosion would need to have to destroy at least two stars, I doubt any of that is happening during the creation of a dimension containing many stars.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because we have no idea how the hell to rate those, and we can't just not rate them at all (such as assuming that only the matter in it was created).

 

[Andytrenom]

It would also make it contradictory with how we treat Universe creation if we were to only focus on the matter present within the dimension.

Tho Dargoo did make a thread discussing this particular issue.

 

[Mr._Redic]

I think the idea is that the Pocket Dimension creator used a mini-big bang amount of energy corresponding to the dimesnion's size in their creation.

 

[Xerkser500]

Also pretty sure that creation would be better in that aspect anyway.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that a lot of writers/illustrators give dimensions cosmic backgrounds because it looks pretty and cool, and not because they're trying to portray the character's power. If they wanted to show a character is solar system level, they would show the character destroying a solar system or creating one.

But with that said, if we're going to be strict on that, there are a lot more things that we should be strict about. And it's just uneedingly mean not to give a verse their feat from a dimension when we have verses getting huge power ratings over things in handbooks, game guides, and random obscure writings.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If we're REALLY honest with ourselves, we would say that a starry sky is most likely meant to portray a universe and not a pocket dimension that suddenly ends after a few stars for no reasons. And that the author probably still sees their reality warping characters as having 9-C durability or something. So let's not be that honest because it hardly works with VS Debating.

 

[AguilaR101]

If we're REALLY honest with ourselves, we would say that a starry sky is most likely meant to portray a universe and not a pocket dimension that suddenly ends after a few stars for no reasons.

Makes sense, galaxies aren't even visible irl from earth without telescopes, the only exception being andromeda and even then you could easily mistake it for a random mini cluster of stars

 

[Andytrenom]

It doesn't really matter if the author specifically wanted it to be a portrayal of strength or not. What matters is if it can seen as one without severely misunderstanding what happens in the scene.

Death of the author: what the reader decides to take away from a story cannot be undermined by what the author wanted to convey through the story.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I feel like we can take author portrayal and intent into account when the question isn't directly answered otherwise.

Is Brauner creating a full cosmos or just a cool background? The game doesn't tell us so we don't know. So the only option left seems to be trying to determine whether the maker intended Brauner to be a cosmic being.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If we're REALLY honest with ourselves, we would say that a starry sky is most likely meant to portray a universe and not a pocket dimension that suddenly ends after a few stars for no reasons. And that the author probably still sees their reality warping characters as having 9-C durability or something. So let's not be that honest because it hardly works with VS Debating.

Low 2-C Jirachi via cosmic power?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree more with Matthew Schroeder and Saikou; case by case is important. As for pocket realities containing stars, it depends on the context and consideration. While the number of stars is an important aspect, the space between two or more stars is also important to consider. Of course if there's a genjutsu ability, than it would most likely be illusion. And there are some characters who simply teleport, but there are also times where the pocket realities are legit real.

Now as repeated on previous thread, if there are thousands of stars for a setting that they are real, that would inherently give the impression that the pocket reality is many light years in radius. Castlevania's 4-A feats are easily legit given they're literally described as Quantum spaces.

 

[Xerkser500]

If we're REALLY honest with ourselves, we would say that a starry sky is most likely meant to portray a universe and not a pocket dimension that suddenly ends after a few stars for no reasons. And that the author probably still sees their reality warping characters as having 9-C durability or something. So let's not be that honest because it hardly works with VS Debating.

This.

I dunno why people suddenly think these dimensions suddenly end at, like, a few stars for no reason besides wanting it to deny being a universe. But thats a different situation.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I was unaware of the fact that describing it as a quantum space automatically means that the stars contained within it are real and proves that it's big enough to contain multiple solar systems

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that a "Pocket Universe Creation Feats" page seems like a good idea, but somebody very experienced obviously has to write it.

 

[Omimi]

I still think it's 4-A to create a realm with stars while creating stars in an existing realm is High 4-C.

is creating a realm with 1 stars enough for 4-A or u need more then 1 star

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Stars is plural and that sentence, and he obviously means a realm with multiple stars.

 

[Omimi]

k thanks

then creating a realm with 1 star is 4-B ?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Depends, but this blog contains more details on that. Can either be High 4-C or 4-B.

 

[Kaltias]

Creating a realm with a single star should simply be High 4-C with our new policy about pocket dimensions I think.

We said "compare sizes" and Earth-Sun is obviously < Solar System

 

[Antvasima]

Is some staff member interested in writing an instruction page for this?