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It should have been High 4-C, for a while.Kaltias said:
Though the only pages I can think of off the top of my head currently affected by this would be the Triforce and the things that are scaled to it.
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The Problem with the Pocket Dimension Star Feats
- Thread starter Dark649
- Start date
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- Tags
- celestial body feats
Though the only pages I can think of off the top of my head currently affected by this would be the Triforce and the things that are scaled to it.
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But like DDM said it's either high 4-c to 4-b and knowing zelda it going to be both with a unknown slaped into it also like stated above 99.9% of Nintendo's characters are going to be affected by it but alot of them have legit feats so it wouldn't be a downgrade it will be more of a solid proofDarkDragonMedeus said:
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^^^
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@AshenCrow777
It shouldn't have been treated as 4-B, in the first place. It was treating an area smaller than the minimum requirement for Solar System level as 4-B due to an entirely different feat which involved destroying the earth and sun with an explosio starting from the earth. By the logic used, creating the earth, the sun, and the space in between > creating the entire solar system, which would be base Solar System level with reality warping. That's my point.
I was actually going to make a thread about it, a while ago.
It shouldn't have been treated as 4-B, in the first place. It was treating an area smaller than the minimum requirement for Solar System level as 4-B due to an entirely different feat which involved destroying the earth and sun with an explosio starting from the earth. By the logic used, creating the earth, the sun, and the space in between > creating the entire solar system, which would be base Solar System level with reality warping. That's my point.
I was actually going to make a thread about it, a while ago.
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I don't want to be that guy but aren't almost a big majority of conditions and rules on this wiki kind of contradictory or simply just a bit too out dated for all the new things coming on and the fact that some of them are simply over complicated does not help at all.
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I have no idea how "creating all the planets in our solar system, the sun, and the space between them > creating the earth, the sun, and the space between them" is in any way complicated. It should be common sense, is something that was agreed upon, and we're talking about slightly altering a small amount of pages affected by this by a single tier. At least, the comment I made was.
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I wasnt referring to your comment but at something saikou said how sometimes something's are just being made over complicated for no reason
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I agree, to an extent.
I think we should be more strict with certain things (not just bumping an entire verse up numerous tiers due to some vague statement or background after extremely little analysis), but also that common sense and conversation should be used in each case as opposed to just adding more unnecessary rules.
I think we should be more strict with certain things (not just bumping an entire verse up numerous tiers due to some vague statement or background after extremely little analysis), but also that common sense and conversation should be used in each case as opposed to just adding more unnecessary rules.
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Attack Potency isn't exclusive to size; it's more about energy concentration.
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Yes, and the 4-B feat in question resulted in energy that high because it was an explosion with a specific starting point.DarkDragonMedeus said:
None of this is taken into account for vague reality warping used to create pocket realms through non-specified means. Just because some calcs for destroying planets can result in High 5-A does not mean creating a random planet via reality warping should be a High 5-A feat, for example.
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Like reality warping or affecting and altering/changing a whole area via that energy concentration right it dosent have to be always destructive right (its a honeat question by the way) if so i dont much see the problem?
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Regarding Saik's comment, if it's supposed to be a reply to me saying that we need some kind of evidence that the stars are real, I wasn't saying that we need someone outright saying "btw all of this is real, especially those stars above our heads", I was simply saying that people should sit down a bit and think if said dimension can be MSS sized without causing inconsistencies and stuff like that (which is exactly the case with Marluxia's "feat", which spawned this discussion)
@DDM
There is no energy at all involved in reality warping though
@DDM
There is no energy at all involved in reality warping though
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Wait but dosent most verse have to use magic/whatever(energy) to power their reality warping power to affect something that means there is energy used in it it is just utilize a different way no?
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Sometime there is energy being used in magic; such as Telekinesis feats. The "Destruction and Recreation of celestial objects" types of reality warping are easily GBE levels energy or above.
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It's not really, was simply addressing the "There is no energy at all involved in reality warping though" bit.
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The triforce does use energy to achieve this kind of thing and the whole dark realm/was calced to be legit also by commen sense shouldnt a star be the same size and same distance as our real life solar system and the fact that it is a mirrior replica of hyrule plus created by the 3 GG's who have obvious low-2C feats it dosent make sense for them to have created a mirrior replica world to hyrule to be just planetary and in game diaologue plus other statments said that the TF can alter the essence of all things meaning it does use energy to affect the DW to say realoty warping of any verse does mot use energy honestly feels like a stretch.DarkDragonMedeus said:
I mean literally more then half of the characters on this wiki used or just uses reality warping and if it dosent use energy wouldn't that basically screw more then half the characters around this wiki including people from both Dc and Marvel page that affected/created and/or destroy things via reality warping something that "doesn't use energy" thus making RW useless Because if something dosent produce energy it cannot do anything im comfused?
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That's an entirely different discussion that's been had multiple times, which is not related to the fact that the current 4-B feat the Triforce is scaled to is actually High 4-C.
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But it cannot be high 4-C since demise has a dimension creation feat by this thread logic would put him at high 4-C which would be an outlier(?) since the TF is the most powerfull object and the second would be the master sword wich was made out of it but anyways i will just wait for someone to do a CRT all of this is confusing so if someone do those it it would be cool to be notified about it but thanks AZ for making somethings clear you too DDMAzathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Can we please stop this useless derailing? Please?
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Yup i was done with it anyways i got the answers i needed
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But what is the final verdict? Making the rules more strict, or agreeing that pocket dimensions with "dots" should be assuemd to be stars unless source material, WOG, or other feats go against that?
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I am rather uncertain what this thread is trying to revise at all.
Jackythejack
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Basically saying "no" to creating dimensions with stars I believe?
Like "prove those dots are stars!" kinda thing. Like saying you need evidence they're stars and not...dots?
Its a bit confusing but I say keep things as they are
Like "prove those dots are stars!" kinda thing. Like saying you need evidence they're stars and not...dots?
Its a bit confusing but I say keep things as they are
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Well it seems reasonable I guess?
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How we approach starry dimension feats (personally I feel it should be a case by case and we need to fit criteria of whether it is even created by a character or if it has actual stars)
Jackythejack
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I feel it's a bit unreasonably strict to just say "nah those dots in the sky? Those aren't stars those are dots." Like I don't get why none would assume that automatically? Especially when half the people who would add a feat like this into a form of media would lead you to assume that yes, those are stars.
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Do you prefer the High 4-C for 4-A end btw
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Huh, so it wasn't just me...
Well, IMHO I do think the wiki can be too lenient when giving the 4-A rating with starry dimensions. To be honest, I think that as said above, cases should be analyzed individually and carefully to see if they are consistent with what the verse has shown.
For example: the case I find most iffy is Kid Icarus. It has consistent tier 6 showings, yet based on a single display by Hades it makes a huge tier jump to high tier 4. Unlike, for example, Castlevania which has dimension creation as a well established part of the lore regarding Dracula's castle, several instances of dimensional warping with monsters and tier 5 and lower tier 4 showings IIRC, that add up to the 4-A. I may be missing something, but do are we told that space was some sort of galaxy or such or large enough, it seemed more like a void of undetermined size, the stars could be a simple stylistic choice (and the clearest showing was the heart itself which could be a simple design).
I mean, playing devil's advocate for a bit, what if the stars are illusory or a simple representation of how grandiose the power of the character is (because that's what authors use it for at least), how do we know the stars are really there and aren't simple projections seen from within this strange created dimension, how do we know for sure this dimension is large enough to contain stars and is not just limited by inivisible barriers (this HAS happened in fiction, will post examples later).
That's why I mean we need to analyze each case, if cosmic power is consistent with the verse's lore, if the story does backup a true large enough space, whether it was really created, etc. I do feel, many times the argument goes ends too quickly with "starry sky? Oh, 4-A." And from what I get it, as mentioned above, it has been adressed but... what about Outliers and Inconsistencies? I mean, DmC had the case against it for this reason and how it went against it's continental level feats.
Well, IMHO I do think the wiki can be too lenient when giving the 4-A rating with starry dimensions. To be honest, I think that as said above, cases should be analyzed individually and carefully to see if they are consistent with what the verse has shown.
For example: the case I find most iffy is Kid Icarus. It has consistent tier 6 showings, yet based on a single display by Hades it makes a huge tier jump to high tier 4. Unlike, for example, Castlevania which has dimension creation as a well established part of the lore regarding Dracula's castle, several instances of dimensional warping with monsters and tier 5 and lower tier 4 showings IIRC, that add up to the 4-A. I may be missing something, but do are we told that space was some sort of galaxy or such or large enough, it seemed more like a void of undetermined size, the stars could be a simple stylistic choice (and the clearest showing was the heart itself which could be a simple design).
I mean, playing devil's advocate for a bit, what if the stars are illusory or a simple representation of how grandiose the power of the character is (because that's what authors use it for at least), how do we know the stars are really there and aren't simple projections seen from within this strange created dimension, how do we know for sure this dimension is large enough to contain stars and is not just limited by inivisible barriers (this HAS happened in fiction, will post examples later).
That's why I mean we need to analyze each case, if cosmic power is consistent with the verse's lore, if the story does backup a true large enough space, whether it was really created, etc. I do feel, many times the argument goes ends too quickly with "starry sky? Oh, 4-A." And from what I get it, as mentioned above, it has been adressed but... what about Outliers and Inconsistencies? I mean, DmC had the case against it for this reason and how it went against it's continental level feats.
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technically Kid Icarus only has 2 Tier 6 showings with 1 from the English version
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@Tarta
Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Kid Icarus does have consistent Tier 6 feats, a single mixed Tier 5, but three Tier 4 feats. Dyntos created a realm to recreate the fight between Pit and the Space Kraken, in which the original fight happened in space. In this realm, there were countless stars within there.
Hades did the same thing, one chapter earlier. This isn't an outlier, or it being iffy. It's a god tier preforming a high tier feat, with the single strongest god tier within said verse replicating the same thing. Kid Icarus is consistent with Tier 6 and 4 feats. You could even make an arguement of Hades potentially being Tier 2, as he threatened to destroy your save file at post-credits if he still had a body. This is consistent with him literally destroying the credits in his first appearence to make his introduction, and Pit being able to shoot the ACTUAL credits the the game's true finale. Not to mention he actually turned your screen off for a moment, but turned it back on since it was the end of the game. But that's an arguement I don't think we should be delving into at the current moment.
What I'm saying is that Hades & Dyntos feats are consistent with the power they represent within the games.
Sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Kid Icarus does have consistent Tier 6 feats, a single mixed Tier 5, but three Tier 4 feats. Dyntos created a realm to recreate the fight between Pit and the Space Kraken, in which the original fight happened in space. In this realm, there were countless stars within there.
Hades did the same thing, one chapter earlier. This isn't an outlier, or it being iffy. It's a god tier preforming a high tier feat, with the single strongest god tier within said verse replicating the same thing. Kid Icarus is consistent with Tier 6 and 4 feats. You could even make an arguement of Hades potentially being Tier 2, as he threatened to destroy your save file at post-credits if he still had a body. This is consistent with him literally destroying the credits in his first appearence to make his introduction, and Pit being able to shoot the ACTUAL credits the the game's true finale. Not to mention he actually turned your screen off for a moment, but turned it back on since it was the end of the game. But that's an arguement I don't think we should be delving into at the current moment.
What I'm saying is that Hades & Dyntos feats are consistent with the power they represent within the games.
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That's more of 4th Wall Breaking tbh.
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Oh. Well, even still, him threatening to destroy your save file, and Palutena hinting that Dyntos is far superior to Hades is pretty consistent.
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But, you know...Dyntos' feat would be nice to add to the pages as well. But that's for later. Back to this. What is the general consensus if there is one?
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Oh, yeh, almost forgot about that.
